Lame Duck GM; How Much Power Should Holland Have? Should He Have Been Fired?

[Shaman464]

I disagree with you. I think Helm is good at hockey.

but whyyyy are we so worried about this?

Cap space and draft picks are not good at hockey.

It's all irrelevant when Jonathan Ericsson is the best defenseman you've drafted in 20 years.

Helm is good at hockey like Mario Mendoza was good at baseball.

 

[Heaton]

I see what your saying prior to the bold, but I dont agree with the bold. What Holland did yesterday with Mrazek was definitely a hard choice. Moving a guy like that is going to get the ire of fans, and could come back to bite him in the ass. Moving Jimmy would have been the easy choice, not really many downsides to that one. Unless your definition of hard choices is just moving vets.

Remember, "hard choice" and "right choice" are not necessarily the same thing. They can be, but not always.

I don't think it was a hard choice for Holland because they had already moved on from Mrazek last season. A hard choice would have been letting Abdelkader and Helm walk, two guys that Holland wanted to keep, but the team didn't need right now.

 

[izlez]

I'm not "worried", I am commenting that it was a bad, unnecessary deal.

And cap space can lead to draft picks which lead to prospects which can lead to players who are good at hockey. They are important things to think about other than just who you have on your roster at any given moment. That's basic stuff you are just disregarding, here.

So same thing as always.

Come up with a plan to build a bad hockey team.

Have no actual plan to build a good hockey team.

Celebrate that you are a better GM than the GM.

 

[RedWingzz]

Never heard the expression ”lame duck GM”.

Re-sign him in the offseason if he wants to stay. Otherwise, replace with someone who’s 99% likely to do a worse job.

Uhhh..we have the highest payroll in the NHL and are nowhere near a playoff spot. How exactly can it be any worse than this? Teams around the NHL are laughing at our cap situations. Fans around the league are laughing at our cap situation, it's so bad that even our own fans are laughing at our cap situation. I really don't want to watch another 5 years of the team being junk and pressed up against the cap, being run by a GM with a "all you have to do is get into the playoffs" mentality. Holland has overstayed his welcome, it's time to move on.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

So same thing as always.

Come up with a plan to build a bad hockey team.

Have no actual plan to build a good hockey team.

Celebrate that you are a better GM than the GM.

So Holland's plan is good (and all moves he makes) until we come up with our own plan? What a great way for you to shut down discussion and declare victory over all the "haters" who don't have a clue.

 

[jkutswings]

So Holland's plan is good (and all moves he makes) until we come up with our own plan? What a great way for you to shut down discussion and declare victory over all the "haters" who don't have a clue.

A brain surgeon that has a few malpractice suits pending against him cannot be guilty unless I can at least describe how to perform the surgery better.

 

[RedWingzz]

I don't think it was a hard choice for Holland because they had already moved on from Mrazek last season. A hard choice would have been letting Abdelkader and Helm walk, two guys that Holland wanted to keep, but the team didn't need right now.

Holland has no issue paying depth grinders 4+ million per year, but will absolutely not pay an (inconsistent) skilled, athletic, competitive 25 year old goalie 4 million? I really don't understand how he can justify letting Mrazek go for spare parts because he doesn't think he deserves 4 million, yet he paid guys like Abby, Helm, Nielsen, Ericsson, Dekeyser this kind of money. It's pretty evident he doesn't know how to prioritize in a cap era. He signs 4th liners to 4 million dollar contracts, yet lets talented goalies walk, and plays hardball with young skilled forwards.

 

[RedWingzz]

Can people relax a little? Did anyone listen to Holland's interview today? I have no idea why the guy gets ripped apart. You guys just like to complain.

You can use this page as a reference as to why people complain about Holland.

Detroit Red Wings - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

For starters, we pay our top 4 D (Green/Dekeyser/Kronwall/Ericsson) more than Nashville pays Subban/Josi/Ekholm/Ellis. That alone is sickening.

 

[Redder Winger]

Can people relax a little? Did anyone listen to Holland's interview today? I have no idea why the guy gets ripped apart. You guys just like to complain.

Yeah, I heard his bullshit.

"I don't like massive rebuilds."
"We're just going to turn the wheel a little bit."

My guess Detroit spends the next 5 years going in circles, ranked 15th to 25th. Then they sink to the bottom and do the "massive rebuild" that has been necessary for the last 3 years.

So unless there's a massive change in philosophy, you're looking at 10 years in the trash, minimum.

 

[kliq]

I don't think it was a hard choice for Holland because they had already moved on from Mrazek last season. A hard choice would have been letting Abdelkader and Helm walk, two guys that Holland wanted to keep, but the team didn't need right now.

That’s what I figured, your definition of hard choice is letting go of vets. Fair enough.

 

[Pavels Dog]

You can use this page as a reference as to why people complain about Holland.

Detroit Red Wings - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

For starters, we pay our top 4 D (Green/Dekeyser/Kronwall/Ericsson) more than Nashville pays Subban/Josi/Ekholm/Ellis. That alone is sickening.

Comparisons like this are such f*cking BS.
Ellis is on a cheap RFA deal. Kronwall is paid for what he did years ago (a time when he was underpaid). And in a few days Green is gone. But nah, let’s make that comparison as if it’s equal situations.
Did you know Larkin has more points than Johansen while making 7 millions less??

 

[Redder Winger]

Comparisons like this are such f*cking BS.
Ellis is on a cheap RFA deal. Kronwall is paid for what he did years ago (a time when he was underpaid). And in a few days Green is gone. But nah, let’s make that comparison as if it’s equal situations.
Did you know Larkin has more points than Johansen while making 7 millions less??

Gimme a break.
Kronwall, Holland gets a pass.

You don't get a pass for Ericsson and Dekeyser.

The Red Wings are among the worst teams in the league. They're old and they're expensive.

You want to pretend Holland has done a nice job with this roster, be my guest. But outside of Red Wings boards, be prepared to get laughed at.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Holland has no issue paying depth grinders 4+ million per year, but will absolutely not pay an (inconsistent) skilled, athletic, competitive 25 year old goalie 4 million? I really don't understand how he can justify letting Mrazek go for spare parts because he doesn't think he deserves 4 million, yet he paid guys like Abby, Helm, Nielsen, Ericsson, Dekeyser this kind of money. It's pretty evident he doesn't know how to prioritize in a cap era. He signs 4th liners to 4 million dollar contracts, yet lets talented goalies walk, and plays hardball with young skilled forwards.

...but he did pay Mrazek.... Petr got roughly $7M in 1.75 seasons and delivered goaltending that you'd expect from a $700k a year goalie. He doesn't deserve more. Even Mike Milbury under the influence of plastic bottle tequila wouldn't grant that QO.

I can easily justify the letting go. Despite losing the starting job in 15/16, Petr wanted big bucks and got them, they also kicked Bedard to the curb and promoted GR's goalie coach to help him and came into 16/17 with Mrazek as the starter. He then dropped the starting again, then again to Jared Coreau of all goalies, then he played like garbage in the WC, then he got exposed in the ED where any team could've paid Vegas a meager 6th rounder to get him for them and no one bit. For the entire duration of two seasons where he made around $4M, he waited until the last month or so to play like a $2M goalie. He was never and is not now worth $4.15M.

When signed, none of those players were "depth grinders" .While all the players you listed may not perform now to the dollar amount they make, they at least were making a reasonable enough NHL level contribution comparable to others in that cost range before they signed those deals. When Abdelkader was given his contract, he was coming off 2 seasons where he averaged 20+ goals and 40+ points, Neilsen was still seen as a #2 C, etc. There is no correlation from what they make to just giving $4.15M to a goalie just because. Giving Mrazek $4.15M for next season would be the equivalent to re-signing Aaron Downey for $2.5M/year after the 2008 Cup.

All of those players would've likely gotten the deals they have from other teams on the open market. As for Petr, there is ZERO chance he gets anything close to $4M on the open market this summer. Apple to oranges in comparison to the others.

As for his "young skilled forwards", they don't have the leverage and can thus be cost controlled. And as far as "hardball" with them is concerned, Athanasiou is the one that held out for what turned out to be $137.5k and Tatar got a contract that will likely make him another "overpaid vet" in a year or two...

 

[Pavels Dog]

Gimme a break.
Kronwall, Holland gets a pass.

You don't get a pass for Ericsson and Dekeyser.

The Red Wings are among the worst teams in the league. They're old and they're expensive.

You want to pretend Holland has done a nice job with this roster, be my guest. But outside of Red Wings boards, be prepared to get laughed at.

That’s how the cap era works. E and DD were earning that money when they signed, and then they didn’t. It’s BS to compare with RFAs that will get huge payraises on their next deals or a Subban that looks good now but could be an anchor contract down the road. Chicago got old and expensive. Nashville will too. The problem for us isn’t that Dekeyser makes 5 million, it’s that if we remove him from the roster we can’t immediately find a better use for those 5 mil or a better D-man to replace him with. Focusing on cap hits is so meaningless. Larkin is our best player and makes less than a mil. These situations will keep happening for us until the salary structure of the team shifts again. And we’ll always be at the cap ceiling. No reason not to be.

 

[Redder Winger]

That’s how the cap era works. E and DD were earning that money when they signed, and then they didn’t. It’s BS to compare with RFAs that will get huge payraises on their next deals or a Subban that looks good now but could be an anchor contract down the road. Chicago got old and expensive. Nashville will too. The problem for us isn’t that Dekeyser makes 5 million, it’s that if we remove him from the roster we can’t immediately find a better use for those 5 mil or a better D-man to replace him with. Focusing on cap hits is so meaningless. Larkin is our best player and makes less than a mil. These situations will keep happening for us until the salary structure of the team shifts again. And we’ll always be at the cap ceiling. No reason not to be.

No, they weren't earning the money.
Ericsson never earned shit. He never earned a six year, $4M deal. Ever.
And there was no pressure to give Dekeyser a long term deal at $5M a year.

Detroit overestimated the value of their own guys. This is a pattern in Detroit that can't be ignored.
Run-of-the-mill guys getting overpaid and overtermed.

Larkin's underpayment is about to end.

 

[Redder Winger]

...but he did pay Mrazek.... Petr got roughly $7M in 1.75 seasons and delivered goaltending that you'd expect from a $700k a year goalie. He doesn't deserve more. Even Mike Milbury under the influence of plastic bottle tequila wouldn't grant that QO.

I can easily justify the letting go. Despite losing the starting job in 15/16, Petr wanted big bucks and got them, they also kicked Bedard to the curb and promoted GR's goalie coach to help him and came into 16/17 with Mrazek as the starter. He then dropped the starting again, then again to Jared Coreau of all goalies, then he played like garbage in the WC, then he got exposed in the ED where any team could've paid Vegas a meager 6th rounder to get him for them and no one bit. For the entire duration of two seasons where he made around $4M, he waited until the last month or so to play like a $2M goalie. He was never and is not now worth $4.15M.

When signed, none of those players were "depth grinders" .While all the players you listed may not perform now to the dollar amount they make, they at least were making a reasonable enough NHL level contribution comparable to others in that cost range before they signed those deals. When Abdelkader was given his contract, he was coming off 2 seasons where he averaged 20+ goals and 40+ points, Neilsen was still seen as a #2 C, etc. There is no correlation from what they make to just giving $4.15M to a goalie just because. Giving Mrazek $4.15M for next season would be the equivalent to re-signing Aaron Downey for $2.5M/year after the 2008 Cup.

All of those players would've likely gotten the deals they have from other teams on the open market. As for Petr, there is ZERO chance he gets anything close to $4M on the open market this summer. Apple to oranges in comparison to the others.

As for his "young skilled forwards", they don't have the leverage and can thus be cost controlled. And as far as "hardball" with them is concerned, Athanasiou is the one that held out for what turned out to be $137.5k and Tatar got a contract that will likely make him another "overpaid vet" in a year or two...

Who cares what Mrazek would get?
You can overpay a guy on a 1-2 year deal without much consequence.
I had no heartburn trading Howard and paying Mrazek $4M for next year.

You still save money.
And you're giving a kid you drafted and developed a year to start and figure out his game.

That's an easy decision. If he still sucks, well then you move on.
Maybe you can still trade mrazek the next year.

 

[Frk It]

The problem for us isn’t that Dekeyser makes 5 million, it’s that if we remove him from the roster we can’t immediately find a better use for those 5 mil or a better D-man to replace him with.

If it's the off-season, you 100% could.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Larkin's underpayment is about to end.

And then maybe Rasmussen’s, Svechnikov’s, Hronek’s or Cholowski’s starts. Then Kronwall’s overpayment ends, then Ericsson’s, then Z’s, then others.
Get it? It’s a process. An influx of cheap youth is on it’s way.

If it's the off-season*, you 100%** could.

*some offseasons
** if said player wants to come to Detroit

 

[ShelbyZ]

Who cares what Mrazek would get?
You can overpay a guy on a 1-2 year deal without much consequence.
I had no heartburn trading Howard and paying Mrazek $4M for next year.

You still save money.
And you're giving a kid you drafted and developed a year to start and figure out his game.

That's an easy decision. If he still sucks, well then you move on.
Maybe you can still trade mrazek the next year.

Or you trade him now when you still can, instead of "maybe" being able to trade him next season. They weren't going to qualify him. You of course don't have the heartburn for it, but 31 GM's likely would.

It's not like it's over. They can certainly grab him on the UFA market for $900k this summer if they want to give him another chance, and still save money too.

 

[Frk It]

Larkin's underpayment is about to end.

If we do a big extension next contract should be like 50% RFA years, so he will probably still end up being underpaid in the long run. Just less underpaid than now.

 

[RedWingzz]

Comparisons like this are such f*cking BS.
Ellis is on a cheap RFA deal. Kronwall is paid for what he did years ago (a time when he was underpaid). And in a few days Green is gone. But nah, let’s make that comparison as if it’s equal situations.
Did you know Larkin has more points than Johansen while making 7 millions less??

Did you know that we have the highest payroll in the NHL and are not even in a playoff race with 2 months to go in the season? I don't know how anyone could be content with this. HIGHEST PAYROLL and a BOTTOM 7 TEAM. But you're right, let's all praise Kenny Holland for all his hard work and pretend it's still 2002 when the Wings were actually good.

We were a top team 15 years ago, so leave Ken Holland alone!

 

[RedWingzz]

Or you trade him now when you still can, instead of "maybe" being able to trade him next season. They weren't going to qualify him. You of course don't have the heartburn for it, but 31 GM's likely would.

It's not like it's over. They can certainly grab him on the UFA market for $900k this summer if they want to give him another chance, and still save money too.

You really think all Mrazek will get as a UFA (assuming Philly doesn't qualify him) is 900k. Come on man...

I honestly have a feeling he kills it for Philly, and they do qualify him at 4.1 million. One team's "garbage" will be another team's gold. I will continue to support Mrazek, and hope he has success. I hope he proves Holland wrong, and proves me right.

900k lol....

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

He reminds me of Inspector Gadget.

 

[ShelbyZ]

You really think all Mrazek will get as a UFA (assuming Philly doesn't qualify him) is 900k. Come on man...

I honestly have a feeling he kills it for Philly, and they do qualify him at 4.1 million. One team's "garbage" will be another team's gold. I will continue to support Mrazek, and hope he has success. I hope he proves Holland wrong, and proves me right.

900k lol....

I exaggerated... slightly. Maybe $1.2M at most.

Guy had no takers until Philly lost 2 goalies for 4-6 weeks, so what makes him worth so much as a UFA?

Seriously doubt he gets that QO from Philly unless they know they can easily move Elliott or Neuvirth. Petr would have to go 2003 Giguere for them to consider that $4.15M offer.

I hope Petr proves me wrong and isn't in the KHL in 2 years...

 

[Pavels Dog]

Did you know that we have the highest payroll in the NHL and are not even in a playoff race with 2 months to go in the season? I don't know how anyone could be content with this. HIGHEST PAYROLL and a BOTTOM 7 TEAM. But you're right, let's all praise Kenny Holland for all his hard work and pretend it's still 2002 when the Wings were actually good.

We were a top team 15 years ago, so leave Ken Holland alone!

Big deal. Half the league has ~2 million or less in cap space. Among those teams are other bad ones like Ottawa, Montreal, Vancouver and Chicago. "Highest payroll" is a talking point that means very little in reality other than to show that we're a "rich" team and we're still paying some contracts that were signed during successful years.