Lame Duck GM; How Much Power Should Holland Have? Should He Have Been Fired?

[Redder Winger]

It's Feb. 19.
Ken Holland doesn't have a contract. There have been more stories speculating about him leaving Detroit than him staying.
We don't have any idea if he wants to return to Detroit.
He seems to be operating under the idea that Detroit can turn things around and contend fairly quickly.
We don't know if this is what he truly believes, or if this is based on some order from ownership to keep the Wings in the playoff picture.

Why isn't Ken Holland signed?
Is it because ownership hasn't offered him a new deal and doesn't intend to bring him back?
If so, then ownership should have fired him before July 1, and he had the opportunity to sign Daley and put the team up against the cap - and force the ill-advised Sheahan trade.
Maybe a new GM would have fired Blashill and we might have done better developing young guys like AA and Mrazek, etc.

Now we're sitting here listening to rumors about Holland trading a 26 year old goalie while keeping about-to-be 34-year old goalie.
Would a GM with plans to be here for 5-10 years consider such a thing?
I doubt it.

Click to read more...

 

[Ezekial]

:yawn:

 

[Frk It]

He's not going to do anything to shoot this organization in the foot, he's been here way too long for that. I'm not really worried about that. The only reason he is shopping certain guys over others is because some guys actually have trade value and some don't. But fans think everyone has trade value.

He's probably going to get a last minute extension, because that's the easy thing to do, and I'm not sure Chris Illitch cares all that much.

 

[Oddbob]

UGH! The ill-advised Sheahan trade??? About 98.754% of Red Wing fans do that trade everyday, all-day. Sheahan was useless to us, doing exactly nothing to benefit our team in one way or the other. Oh look he scored a couple goals last night, whoopy do! He didn't do that for us, so buh-bye! Last I checked an improved 3rd rounder for a no pts bottom 6 forward is a great price, so we made out like bandits while the getting was good!

 

[Pavels Dog]

Never heard the expression ”lame duck GM”.

Re-sign him in the offseason if he wants to stay. Otherwise, replace with someone who’s 99% likely to do a worse job.

 

[Shaman464]

UGH! The ill-advised Sheahan trade??? About 98.754% of Red Wing fans do that trade everyday, all-day. Sheahan was useless to us, doing exactly nothing to benefit our team in one way or the other. Oh look he scored a couple goals last night, whoopy do! He didn't do that for us, so buh-bye! Last I checked an improved 3rd rounder for a no pts bottom 6 forward is a great price, so we made out like bandits while the getting was good!

Should have traded AA. He's out of here as soon as he can anyway.

 

[Redder Winger]

He's not going to do anything to shoot this organization in the foot, he's been here way too long for that. I'm not really worried about that. The only reason he is shopping certain guys over others is because some guys actually have trade value and some don't. But fans think everyone has trade value.

He's probably going to get a last minute extension, because that's the easy thing to do, and I'm not sure Chris Illitch cares all that much.

That's all he's done is shoot this organization in the foot. For 7 years.

 

[Run the Jewels]

The organization trusts him fully, that's why I want to trade Mrazek. Khan suggested the only way Mrazek could get qualified was if he finished very strongly. That seems highly unlikely so you are going to lose him as a UFA. There are rumors about Holland GM'ing the expansion team in Seattle and that sounds like a great option.

I don't think Holland is making any moves that ownership isn't fully behind. Most important thing for me is hiring a new GM as soon as the season is over. It'll probably be an uninspiring hire like Draper but just get it done so we can see what fresh hell is next.

 

[Claypool]

and force the ill-advised Sheahan trade.

So now we don't want Holland to make trades? I'm confused.

 

[kliq]

I get the impression that Wings management/ownership want two types of players. Vets who can guide the kids, and kids with upside. Players who they believe have peaked and are nothing special, AND are not old enough to be vets are going to be moved. That's why Sheahan, Smith, and Jurco, were moved, and is the reason why XO an Mrazek are about to be moved. I'm fine with all those guys being moved minus Mrazek.

 

[ShelbyZ]

But you forgot the ill advised Mursak and Pulkkinen waivings!

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Yes, dude should have been let go several years ago, but our team is ran like a country club, if you’re in the club, your job is protected for as long as you want it.

Also, I liked Sheahan, and it was clear he needed to go as well. He has a lot more opportunity to succeed in Pittsburgh than he could have here with the depth they have up front.

 

[Heaton]

Never heard the expression ”lame duck GM”.

Re-sign him in the offseason if he wants to stay. Otherwise, replace with someone who’s 99% likely to do a worse job.

Can you expand on this? The team isn't set up very good right now, but saying the next GM is going to be worse than Holland doesn't exactly give more hope for the future of this franchise. Holland will retire eventually, and if the next guy is going to be terrible, this franchise may never be good again.

 

[kliq]

Yes, dude should have been let go several years ago, but our team is ran like a country club, if you’re in the club, your job is protected for as long as you want it.

Also, I liked Sheahan, and it was clear he needed to go as well. He has a lot more opportunity to succeed in Pittsburgh than he could have here with the depth they have up front.

He is playing better in Pittsburgh, but he's also got Guentzel on Kessel playing along side him. I haven't broken down his stats or anything, but I would have to imagine that playing along side a top 10 points producer is going to pad your stats a bit, or at least give you more chances then playing with our 4th line.

 

[Frk It]

That's all he's done is shoot this organization in the foot. For 7 years.

If so, it was unintentionally. I got the impression you were talking about something closer to sabotage.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

He is playing better in Pittsburgh, but he's also got Guentzel on Kessel playing along side him. I haven't broken down his stats or anything, but I would have to imagine that playing along side a top 10 points producer is going to pad your stats a bit, or at least give you more chances then playing with our 4th line.

Yes, exactly. He wasn’t going to be that for us this season. And he’s gotten his fair bit of abuse from Penguins fans throughout the season until recently, so.

Like I said, I like him, he’s a nice boy, does a lot for animals, I wish him success in Pittsburgh.

 

[Flowah]

I have been pretty damn critical of Holland and I'm not worried about him leaving us a mess. We already have one. It won't get worse unless he intends it and I don't think he's that kind of person. I don't think he's about to extend Green or anything. Worst that could happen is he overvalues what we have and we don't trade some guys.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Holland is probably doing the same things any GM that the Illitch's would have or will put in the GM position would be doing.

I'm fine with letting him continue. Yea, I know he's not trading Howard, Ericsson, Abdelkader and Helm each for a 7th rounder at 50% retained, but those probably don't even happen in NHL18...

As for Mrazek, despite finally putting up a few decent games, he isn't worth his $4.15M QO, so he's essentially a UFA rental. I'd rather they get something for him while they can rather than waste cap space on him and watch him likely lose the starting job for a 4th time and then have zero value.
And yes, they should explore trading Howard too, but there shouldn't be a rush since he's got an entire year left with no NTC where he can be moved in the summer or at next years deadline to the highest bidder.

At this point, whoever is in goal next season doesn't even matter.

 

[Redder Winger]

If so, it was unintentionally. I got the impression you were talking about something closer to sabotage.

No, I just think he's been slow to adapt to the the salary cap.

I also think Holland started believing the BS myths about the "Red Wing Way."

For example:
Over-ripening.
Loyalty.

He didn't seem to understand that the only way to get through the cap was to cut loose non-essential vets, give icetime to cheap, entry-level kids.

He didn't seem to understand that good teams should always be rebuilding.

 

[ShelbyZ]

So now we don't want Holland to make trades? I'm confused.

Anyone over 27 needs to go ASAP. Anyone that hasn't hit 12:00 AM EST on their 27th B-day still has Hart potential. That includes Ouellet and McIlrath.

 

[Frk It]

No, I just think he's been slow to adapt to the the salary cap.

I also think Holland started believing the BS myths about the "Red Wing Way."

For example:
Over-ripening.
Loyalty.

He didn't seem to understand that the only way to get through the cap was to cut loose non-essential vets, give icetime to cheap, entry-level kids.

He didn't seem to understand that good teams should always be rebuilding.

I don't disagree with that. That's why I think he's sitting here on an expiring contract. That's why I'm hoping he doesn't get extended (even if I think he probably will).

I just don't see him doing anything over these next few months to hurt the Wings future, so I'm not worried about it. I think he respects the Wings way too much. Not like the guy has been doing anything bold in recent years anyways.

 

[Redder Winger]

Anyone over 27 needs to go ASAP. Anyone that hasn't hit 12:00 AM EST on their 27th B-day still has Hart potential. That includes Ouellet and McIlrath.

The focus needs to be on guys who have some use now but won't in 4-5 years.

 

[Redder Winger]

I don't disagree with that. That's why I think he's sitting here on an expiring contract. That's why I'm hoping he doesn't get extended (even if I think he probably will).

I just don't see him doing anything over these next few months to hurt the Wings future, so I'm not worried about it. I think he respects the Wings way too much. Not like the guy has been doing anything bold in recent years anyways.

I don't think he'd do so deliberately.

But here's what I'm saying.
Use a crystal ball to the best of your ability.

In 4-5 years, what is the likelihood that the following players will be useful NHL players.

Sheahan, 30-31 - I'd say 80 percent, he'll be around as a 3rd/4th liner and have value, as long as he's not overpaid.
Darren Helm, 35-36 - I'd say 50 percent. He's not that old, nearing the end. And he's had a lot of injuries, so he might be retired. By then his ugly contract will be over and if he's still in the NHL, it will probably be for a much smaller deal.
Frans Nielsen, 37-38 - About 50 percent. But he's probably a noose around some franchise's neck

So if you're a team that's mostly likely rebuilding, which 3/4 center do you trade?
My priority is to keep Sheahan.

Same sort of thing with Howard/Mrazek.
People will say, ah but you can trade Howard next year.
Well you can do the same if you trade Howard this year. You can sign Mrazek and trade him.

Are these awful mistakes?
I don't know.
How does Sheahan go from 9;03 a night in Detroit to 15:44 for the two-time defending Stanley Cup champs.
I'd say there's something wrong with the way we used him and that our our coach/GM miss-assessed him.

I think the same thing could happen with Mrazek.

 

[lilidk]

Never heard the expression ”lame duck GM”.

Re-sign him in the offseason if he wants to stay. Otherwise, replace with someone who’s 99% likely to do a worse job.

don't forget that he was very good at the time when you can buy Stanly cup . Time has change , it is Yaserman like GM time

 

[Frk It]

I don't think he'd do so deliberately.

But here's what I'm saying.
Use a crystal ball to the best of your ability.

In 4-5 years, what is the likelihood that the following players will be useful NHL players.

Sheahan, 30-31 - I'd say 80 percent, he'll be around as a 3rd/4th liner and have value, as long as he's not overpaid.
Darren Helm, 35-36 - I'd say 50 percent. He's not that old, nearing the end. And he's had a lot of injuries, so he might be retired. By then his ugly contract will be over and if he's still in the NHL, it will probably be for a much smaller deal.
Frans Nielsen, 37-38 - About 50 percent. But he's probably a noose around some franchise's neck

So if you're a team that's mostly likely rebuilding, which 3/4 center do you trade?
My priority is to keep Sheahan.

Same sort of thing with Howard/Mrazek.
People will say, ah but you can trade Howard next year.
Well you can do the same if you trade Howard this year. You can sign Mrazek and trade him.

Are these awful mistakes?
I don't know.
How does Sheahan go from 9;03 a night in Detroit to 15:44 for the two-time defending Stanley Cup champs.
I'd say there's something wrong with the way we used him and that our our coach/GM miss-assessed him.

I think the same thing could happen with Mrazek.

I don't know why you continue to assume that Darren Helm (who no one wanted for free in the expansion draft) and Jimmy Howard (33 year old injury prone goaltender) have a list of suitors lining up for them, and Holland is just refusing to trade them.

I mean the more likely scenario is no one wants our old, beatup, overpaid players... they prefer our young, cheaper, useful players.