what has this team done that deserves that kind of faith? barzal was sent home after 2 games last year. they barely did anything to develop him
Recalled/Assigned: Josh Ho-Sang assigned to Bridgeport *Sent Down to BST 12/15*
- Thread starter Kevin27NYI
- Start date
what has this team done that deserves that kind of faith? barzal was sent home after 2 games last year. they barely did anything to develop him
doublechili
For all intensive purposes, your nuts
- Apr 11, 2006
- 18,648
- 15,022
Why don't we start discussing the possibility of recalling JHS to the NHL after he actually starts producing in the AHL?
We can keep discussing, because we already know he can produce in the NHL. Fourth in P/60 on the Islanders right now. He was extremely productive when he played.
redbull
Boss
- Mar 24, 2008
- 12,593
- 654
yes but points/60 is an offensive metric only. The rest of his game is a mess.
(granted, the WHOLE game of Prince, Fritz, Quine, Chimera, Nelson is still significantly worse than Ho-Sang's)
Team isn't good.
doublechili
For all intensive purposes, your nuts
- Apr 11, 2006
- 18,648
- 15,022
But that's an argument for not sending him down in the first place. My question is, now that he is down can you bring him back up after he's not producing in the AHL?
Yes you can, because we know he can produce in the NHL which is the more important league. I don't know what's unclear about this. It can be an argument for not sending him down, it can be an argument for calling him back up as well. Besides, if the organization placed AHL production above all, Johnston and Quine wouldn't have been called up.
Last edited:
Sidney the Kidney
One last time
- Jun 29, 2009
- 55,773
- 46,844
At the time he was sent down, he wasn't producing in the NHL, though. His last 6 games prior to being sent to the AHL, he had zero points and was a -6 combined in those games.
If the only thing you bring to the table is offense, then you better be consistently producing offense to offset the turnovers and questionable play away from the puck. Ho-Sang wasn't doing that leading up to his demotion to the AHL.
-----
On the subject of certain bottom sixers playing over Ho-Sang, one thing that needs to be kept in mind. Not all of them play the same position as Ho-Sang. Guys like Quine and Fritz play center, so they're not even competing with Ho-Sang for a spot in the lineup. And unless I'm mistaken, Chimera plays LW, which Ho-Sang can't.
So it's not quite as cut and dried as saying "Ho-Sang is better than Player X" when Player X plays a different position and role on the club. The NHL isn't like the video game where you can just plug in the guys with the best overall ratings, regardless of position or role, and succeed.
Ho-Sang doesn't play center or LW, and he doesn't PK. So any player currently on the roster who plays those positions or roles aren't even direct competition for him, and thus, whether or not he's "better" is irrelevant. So the only valid complaint should be against whoever is currently playing 3rd line RW right now. Because that player is the guy who is dressing instead of Ho-Sang.
That's really not relevant for the situation we're in right now. He's capable of producing more than his replacements. If we're only going by points then yes maybe he should have been sent down and once we established that Quine/Fritz can't produce or defend, he should have been called up.
Well, that's a new one. Unless I missed something Fritz and Quine have generally been playing wherever the coach put them, RW, LW, or C. But certainly, I guess it's possible Weight strongly prefers to have 2 AHL centers with one of them shifted to wing instead of making minimal roster adjustments for Hosang. And it's not like either of those centers are any good at any position they play. But I suppose I'm not a coach and I don't understand the deep nuances and the impact of having Tanner Fritz play right wing and Alan Quine center. I'm sure things like that are really important given how useless our bottom6 is.
Last edited:
doublechili
For all intensive purposes, your nuts
- Apr 11, 2006
- 18,648
- 15,022
I disagree. You can't send a young player down to the minors, they do nothing, and then reward them with a callup. With his talent level in the minor leagues, he really needs to be producing.
And JHS isn't Johnston or Quine. His high upside is exactly why they should have his long-term development in mind rather than short term expediencies.
I can agree with the second part. In fact, the Islanders care about Hosang's development so much they're willing to sabotage their playoff chances (the meager short term expediencies) and play AHLers who can't defend OR put up points instead of calling him up. It'll all be worth it someday.
Yes, the future is always what matters with the team. It is more important than winning now.
Glory Days
Registered User
Serious question- do Isles have anyone in charge of development? I am not defending Ho Sang or advocating for his call up. I just wonder if there is anyone in the organization who has no other job but to work on development. Many companies have trainers and mentors who work with employees. These people are not the employees boss (or coach in this case). I think someone like that would really help a kid like Ho Sang. I know many other hockey teams have people in those roles.
doublechili
For all intensive purposes, your nuts
- Apr 11, 2006
- 18,648
- 15,022
So you see JHS as the linchpin upon which the Isles' playoff chances hinge? And keeping him in the AHL sabotages their playoff chances? I didn't realize he was a 1st pairing defenseman, so that's not exactly what I had in mind by "short term expediencies"!
A linchpin? Whyever would he have to be the linchpin? Last year we missed the playoffs by 1 (one) point. All that could make a difference this year is a single game where Hosang lights it up and also puts in effort defensively. We know he's capable of those games sometimes even in his current state. Quine and Fritz aren't. The argument has always been that while not perfect he's much better than what we currently have on the roster - nothing more. No savior, no linchpin. I guess you may see it differently.
Last edited:
Sidney the Kidney
One last time
- Jun 29, 2009
- 55,773
- 46,844
How is how Ho-Sang was producing not relevant? The fact that he wasn't producing AND was a turnover machine/defensive liability is pretty relevant to the discussion about whether he should be playing.
Players like Ho-Sang (high risk, high reward) have to consistently produce in order to justify keeping them in the lineup. Ho-Sang wasn't producing at the time he got demoted. So he kind of made Weight/Snow's decision easy for them.
It would be one thing if he was producing like Barzal and still got sent down due to defense/turnovers/risky style of play. Then you'd have an argument for him. But when the guy was literally producing ZERO production, yet bleeding goals against, I don't see how that's irrelevant to whether or not he should be dressed?
It's not really a "new one" at all. Teams will often call up guys based on the need at that moment, rather than just look to see who is currently leading their AHL team in scoring. For instance, if Cizikas goes down, chances are the first player called up will be whoever can handle Cizikas' role. They're not going to bring up the offense-only winger who can't play center to replace him, even if he's more talented than the guy who got called up instead.
This isn't something isolated to the Islanders. My Penguins sent Daniel Sprong down recently (similar to Ho-Sang in that he's an offensive winger who is suspect defensively) because they didn't have a spot for him in the top six. It didn't matter that he was "better" or more talented than guys they're playing on their 4th line currently. It's the fact that those guys fill roles Sprong can't (ie. PK, defensive line, take faceoffs, etc.).
As for re-arranging the lineup to accommodate him, as I said above, maybe -- maybe -- they'd do that if Ho-Sang's production justified it. But when a guy is pointless in 6 games and is a major liability defensively/turnover-wise during that stretch, no sane coach is going to shuffle everyone else around just to fit him in. No coach, whether he be Weight, Babcock, Quenville, Sullivan, whoever, would do that if the kid isn't giving him a reason to do so (ie. producing).
doublechili
For all intensive purposes, your nuts
- Apr 11, 2006
- 18,648
- 15,022
I guess I just don't see him being the difference between making and not making the playoffs right now. So I'd rather they do the right thing for him longer term. Now what that should mean is that he strings together a handful of good games. And then they call him up. For that matter he should've already done it and we shouldn't be having this conversation since he'd have been on the 3rd line making the difference you think he can make.
Instead, he's got 1 goal and 3 assists in 12 games in the month of January in the AHL. Do you really call that up?
doublechili
For all intensive purposes, your nuts
- Apr 11, 2006
- 18,648
- 15,022
13th Floor
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2008
- 19,025
- 8,472
There's a difference between comparing the output of a player like Quine vs Ho Sang. Coach tells Quine what to do and the [lack of] results are because he f***ing sucks. Coach tells Ho Sang what to do and he just doesn't do it (or does his version of it). Regardless of the offensive results from Ho Sang, you can't have that on your team as it has reverberating effects on the rest of the team. How do you reel that player in when it is absolutely necessary in the 3rd period of a playoff game? How do you teach him good habits? How do you prepare his game once other coaches tune into what he does and we see less production and more consequences? Who else on the team maybe stops listening? Or maybe selectively listens? How long before the whole team tunes the coach out?
I also don't buy all the posts singling out the Isles as wanting to puff up their chest and treat him unfairly as some sort of vendetta or example. This has followed him on literally every team he's played for, be it the Isles, the Sound Tigers, in Juniors, on Team Canada, etc. The Isles franchise deserves every bit of scrutiny we give it in terms of how pitifully it's run, but I always remember this: If you are walking around one day and you run into an asshole, well... you ran into an asshole. If you are walking around every day and constantly run into assholes, maybe you are the asshole.
I also don't buy all the posts singling out the Isles as wanting to puff up their chest and treat him unfairly as some sort of vendetta or example. This has followed him on literally every team he's played for, be it the Isles, the Sound Tigers, in Juniors, on Team Canada, etc. The Isles franchise deserves every bit of scrutiny we give it in terms of how pitifully it's run, but I always remember this: If you are walking around one day and you run into an asshole, well... you ran into an asshole. If you are walking around every day and constantly run into assholes, maybe you are the asshole.
I was back and forth. Either your so called point is irrelevant now. Because now the Isles are not even in the playoffs now and in jeopardy of losing their franchise player. Also MOST prospects do not turn out as good as Barzal has. Point is that the Isles have to make something happen NOW in the hope that JT stays. The future is always the brightest time has passed.
Yes, it's irrelevant right at the moment because we NOW know he's still more productive than his replacements. I'll say it as many times as I'll have to even if you ignore it. Quine and Fritz are terrible defensively with no offensive upside. That's why Hosang should be in the lineup over them. Not because I think he's a complete player.
It's a fairly new one, because it's the first time I've seen anyone say something as ridiculous as that it's Hosang's position that's among the main reasons why he hasn't been called up. Players like Quine and Fritz are waiver wire fodder who can be shifted around as one pleases without impacting the team too much. He's been in the AHL purely because the coaches don't like his game. If they did, yes, they'd gladly build the whole bottom6 around him as he'd be the highest upside guy there.
Cool, his production justifies it. He's been more productive than Quine, Fritz, Chimera or whoever is in the bottom6. Pointless in 6 games, wow. The fact of the matter is that Firtz and Quine are some of the worst active NHLers right now. I don't care what his game is like, I care if he's better or worse than what we currently have.
Yes I really do call that up because I couldn't care less about Hosang's development and I just want to make the playoffs. Whether he's unproductive in the AHL because he's sulking and feels he deserves better - I don't care. Johnston and Fritz definitely will not be the difference between making or missing the playoffs. Hosang MIGHT be. It's crunch time. Deal with him for 20 games and then send him to hell, whatever.
Naturally this argument entirely depends on whether you think he's better than what we currently have on the roster. I do, you don't I guess.
Last edited:
Worth pointing out that he's not really producing that well in the AHL either. He's got 1g and 3 pts in his last 10 games, and was held pointless in 8 of those 10 games.
The Isles missed the playoffs by 1 point last year and they’re out of a playoff spot today. Since first pair defensemen don’t come along very often maybe we could have outscored one of our opponents for 1 additional win if Ho-Sang were playing here?
Last edited:
Maybe we should send down Brock Nelson to give the forwards some help down and Ho-Sang could have someone to pass to down there since he’s useless at the NHL level. Send Chimera down too. The Sound Tigers are also 1 point out of the last playoff spot and could use the help.
