Player Discussion: John Tavares- Part IV

[BelovedIsles]

Who signed Greiss to one of the worst goalie contracts in the league?

Snow signed Andrew Ladd to one of the worst (if not the worst) contracts in the league.

 

[Bones45]

Snow signed Andrew Ladd to one of the worst (if not the worst) contracts in the league.

Apparently that is the trademark of the Isles.

 

[Axe Man]

Delete

 

[redbull]

Excellent post.

I don't think any reasonable person would suggest Tavares is *THE* reason the Islanders are where they are. That would be an insane leap of logic, ignoring other factors such as coaching and defense, etc. But at the same time, as the "franchise player" he also shares some of the responsibility for the Islanders' collapse because of his own play.

If Tavares was doing everything in his power to help the Isles win but they just kept on losing, I don't think anyone would criticize him. Look at McDavid in Edmonton, they're a tire fire but he's still playing like the best player in hockey and in the race for the Art Ross. So it's difficult to blame McDavid for Edmonton's predicament because he's doing everything humanly possible to help his team. I don't think even the staunchest of Tavares fans can say the same about Tavares' performance in the second half.

And this kind of goes back to my earlier post about it not being wise to "throw a blank check at him", because I think Tavares is showing he's not the type who can carry a flawed team. If you throw a blank check at Tavares, you have no money left to fix the other gaping holes in the lineup. So you'll be left with what you're seeing this year; Tavares, but a bad defense and iffy goaltending (and not much bottom six depth up front).

Ultimately, the state of the team is on Snow. But Tavares' play shouldn't be immune from criticism for not showing up when his team needed him most. Because that's the burden of being a franchise player, and removing the blame also means you're not expecting him to perform like a franchise player.

When Did was struggling in the first half, Kessel and later Malkin were carrying so much of he load that it didn't matter much.

As good as McDavid is, he's a one man show who can create on his own. There aren't any like him and likely won't be for a long time.

When Tavated struggles, Bailey and Lee disappear too. Barzal is the only player creating and I seriously doubt that can continue if he's suddenly the number one guy.

I've said for a few years now that this team is awful and was one of the first to suggest they move Tavares - when it was clear the team had far too many holes of they wanted to win a cup.

Now. It's a lose-lose. A real life Dumb and Dumber.

He's absolutely not worth the money he will get but it's more wasteful for the isles who have zero chance to win. If the Leafs want to overpay because they want to make a cup run before Matthews, Marner, Nylander get paid then it makes sense. Same for SJ, STL. For Montreal or the NYR maybe it makes less sense. BUF, NJ, NASH, VGK -Arguable. For the NYI, even at $11MM, still can't build a winner with this crap team. Impossible.

For the Isles, they either lose him for nothing (my guess)? Or cripple their cap and still suck.

They just don't have the supporting cast.
It's a perfect NOWAYOUT scenario thanks to Garth Snow.

And is McDavid really a player who is carrying the team? Or if he just getting points as the team loses? I don't think players can turn it on and off as much as many here think. I think it's a convenient narrative for some.

I think Crosby is still the best player in the world despite the points. I know he had had poor statistical playoffs and Olympics and many people pointing out his flaws in those situations - fairly or not. You can't control when you slump. I think that's unfair.

And why is the first half of the season now deemed less important than now? Aren't the points still worth the same? When the top line was carrying this crap team early there was much less criticisms.

You can opportunistically pick players who are excelling now (Hall, MacKinnon) but this is their first time ever doing so. It's very opportunistic connect that is misleading.

And to be clear, Tavares has been terrible. Worst hockey of his career. I'm marveled at how pathetic the rest of the team looks while he is slumping. Bailey, Lee, Ladd, Nelson and even Cizikas and Clutterbuck seen incapable of anything with JT in a slide.

Fur me, it further proves how terrible the team is. Not unlike McDavid-less EDM, even with Draisaitl.

 

[Instant]

He's absolutely not worth the money he will get but it's more wasteful for the isles who have zero chance to win. If the Leafs want to overpay because they want to make a cup run before Matthews, Marner, Nylander get paid then it makes sense. Same for SJ, STL. For Montreal or the NYR maybe it makes less sense. BUF, NJ, NASH, VGK -Arguable. For the NYI, even at $11MM, still can't build a winner with this crap team. Impossible.

For the Isles, they either lose him for nothing (my guess)? Or cripple their cap and still suck.

Okay. I don't agree with you completely here, mostly because we don't know where he's gonna sign and for how much, so it's tough to say someone is going to overpay him.

I have one question though: do you think that NYI could build a solid team that has a chance to win the Cup if Tavares played for free? Because I doubt that. I really, really do. The problem is not Tavares, nor the money he should get or the money he will get, but this f***ing organization.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

When Did was struggling in the first half, Kessel and later Malkin were carrying so much of he load that it didn't matter much.

As good as McDavid is, he's a one man show who can create on his own. There aren't any like him and likely won't be for a long time.

When Tavated struggles, Bailey and Lee disappear too. Barzal is the only player creating and I seriously doubt that can continue if he's suddenly the number one guy.

I've said for a few years now that this team is awful and was one of the first to suggest they move Tavares - when it was clear the team had far too many holes of they wanted to win a cup.

Now. It's a lose-lose. A real life Dumb and Dumber.

He's absolutely not worth the money he will get but it's more wasteful for the isles who have zero chance to win. If the Leafs want to overpay because they want to make a cup run before Matthews, Marner, Nylander get paid then it makes sense. Same for SJ, STL. For Montreal or the NYR maybe it makes less sense. BUF, NJ, NASH, VGK -Arguable. For the NYI, even at $11MM, still can't build a winner with this crap team. Impossible.

For the Isles, they either lose him for nothing (my guess)? Or cripple their cap and still suck.

They just don't have the supporting cast.
It's a perfect NOWAYOUT scenario thanks to Garth Snow.

And is McDavid really a player who is carrying the team? Or if he just getting points as the team loses? I don't think players can turn it on and off as much as many here think. I think it's a convenient narrative for some.

I think Crosby is still the best player in the world despite the points. I know he had had poor statistical playoffs and Olympics and many people pointing out his flaws in those situations - fairly or not. You can't control when you slump. I think that's unfair.

And why is the first half of the season now deemed less important than now? Aren't the points still worth the same? When the top line was carrying this crap team early there was much less criticisms.

You can opportunistically pick players who are excelling now (Hall, MacKinnon) but this is their first time ever doing so. It's very opportunistic connect that is misleading.

And to be clear, Tavares has been terrible. Worst hockey of his career. I'm marveled at how pathetic the rest of the team looks while he is slumping. Bailey, Lee, Ladd, Nelson and even Cizikas and Clutterbuck seen incapable of anything with JT in a slide.

Fur me, it further proves how terrible the team is. Not unlike McDavid-less EDM, even with Draisaitl.

I might not have been too clear on some of my points, because it sounds a bit like you think I'm down on Tavares for him not carrying the Isles to the playoffs, or expecting him never to slump. Overall, my point was more to do with the discussion of ultimately what kind of salary a player of his level should get before it becomes a detriment to improving the overall roster.

My other (minor) point was that I think franchise players should be criticized when they don't play up to the standards you'd expect from them. It's not Tavares' fault Snow built a flawed roster, but that doesn't mean his actual play can't be critiqued for being well below what you'd expect and want out of a franchise player who stands to make top 1 or top 2 money in hockey.

You bring up Crosby's struggles this year, and if anything that's exactly what I'm referring to about franchise players being held to a (sometimes unreasonable) higher standard. When the Pens were struggling in the first half and it looked like the playoffs might not be a possibility, Crosby got a tremendous amount of criticism for his lackadaisical play (and rightly so -- he's supposed to be the best player in hockey but wasn't playing close to that). Crosby was by no means the ONLY reason the Pens weren't sitting in a playoff spot, but his play wasn't exactly helping matters. And thus, he was justly criticized for it. Hence, why I think it's fair game to criticize Tavares for being a no-show for much of the stretch run when his team needed him.

The point I was attempting to make about McDavid was more a case of illustrating that a player can play in a horrible situation and still produce like the best player in hockey. It was to counter the suggestion that Tavares playing on a bad team is why he's closer to 20th in league scoring rather than 1st, and that his play is understandable because of how bad the Islanders are.

But to bring it back to my overall point, this isn't my attempt to marginalize Tavares or to argue he's not a top center or can't be part of a winning team. It's more of my attempt to give reasons for why I think a]there's a limit you can spend on a player of JT's ability and b]that you can acknowledge his poor play in the second half while at the same time acknowledging that the Islanders weren't well built, as they're not mutually exclusive discussions.

 

[BMOK33]

I might not have been too clear on some of my points, because it sounds a bit like you think I'm down on Tavares for him not carrying the Isles to the playoffs, or expecting him never to slump. Overall, my point was more to do with the discussion of ultimately what kind of salary a player of his level should get before it becomes a detriment to improving the overall roster.

My other (minor) point was that I think franchise players should be criticized when they don't play up to the standards you'd expect from them. It's not Tavares' fault Snow built a flawed roster, but that doesn't mean his actual play can't be critiqued for being well below what you'd expect and want out of a franchise player who stands to make top 1 or top 2 money in hockey.

You bring up Crosby's struggles this year, and if anything that's exactly what I'm referring to about franchise players being held to a (sometimes unreasonable) higher standard. When the Pens were struggling in the first half and it looked like the playoffs might not be a possibility, Crosby got a tremendous amount of criticism for his lackadaisical play (and rightly so -- he's supposed to be the best player in hockey but wasn't playing close to that). Crosby was by no means the ONLY reason the Pens weren't sitting in a playoff spot, but his play wasn't exactly helping matters. And thus, he was justly criticized for it. Hence, why I think it's fair game to criticize Tavares for being a no-show for much of the stretch run when his team needed him.

The point I was attempting to make about McDavid was more a case of illustrating that a player can play in a horrible situation and still produce like the best player in hockey. It was to counter the suggestion that Tavares playing on a bad team is why he's closer to 20th in league scoring rather than 1st, and that his play is understandable because of how bad the Islanders are.

But to bring it back to my overall point, this isn't my attempt to marginalize Tavares or to argue he's not a top center or can't be part of a winning team. It's more of my attempt to give reasons for why I think a]there's a limit you can spend on a player of JT's ability and b]that you can acknowledge his poor play in the second half while at the same time acknowledging that the Islanders weren't well built, as they're not mutually exclusive discussions.

Crosby isn’t even remotely the same player anymore he was 5-7 years ago. Too many games played with the playoff runs and injuries. Honestly even Ovechkin isn’t close to what he was 5-7 years ago any longer. For the most part big time scorers peak between 24-27. There are some exceptions but unlike Dmen it’s rare for them to put up a career season after that age

 

[periferal]

I think we've been over this before: someone elsewhere (IslanderMania) who several people I know have vouched for has been saying this all season as a one man suicide prevention unit. You have frequently stated your skepticism of this. We will just have to wait until June 30th to see if he's right. Occam's razor (like the fact that he is in no way leaving money on the table when he has a chance to set the new benchmark contract money wise. IIRC he is the team's union rep.) says he re-signs.

"this all season as a one man suicide prevention unit." - What did you mean by this?

Also I said I'm skeptical of what exactly?

 

[sabremike]

"this all season as a one man suicide prevention unit." - What did you mean by this?

Also I said I'm skeptical of what exactly?

The first part was a joke about him talking fans panicking over the situation off the ledge. The second was you being skeptical of who was giving me the info, unless I am confusing you with another poster and if that's the case my apologies.

 

[periferal]

JT and his line are HUGE reason why we are 10 points out. Been miserable ever since the new year.

Please stop. I wish JT was close to the biggest problem in this organization.

 

[periferal]

I've said it tons of times before...No one, and I mean NO ONE, is above the franchise. So Tavares isn't above criticism and he certainly is not a perfect player.

However when you add up all his skills and flaws, Tavares totals out as a very high-end, bordering on elite, franchise center. You simply DO NOT let guys like this walk for nothing. Period.

The criticism of Tavares now is such a joke in the face of a franchise that is a total mess right now....

• Spano was forced out of the franchise which was handed to wang...
• Who refused to fire Milbury...
• Who hired Neil Smith for as long as Noah sailed the Ark...
• Only to replace him with an active goalie with ZERO front office experience...
• And gave him a "lifetime" contract...
• Only to retain a minority share of the team as Ledecky/Malkin took over...
• And they continue to run the franchise as if wang was still here...

Tavares is not the problem - For the millionth time ownership is, and if you want to criticism anything wang/Ledecky/Malkin/snow deserve 100% of your criticism. Does anyone here not believe that if Tavares goes to another team, with better ownership and GM, that he wouldn't be at least as good as his best with the Islanders? I'd bet my house on this.

Blaming Tavares for the Isles problems is like blaming Oliver Ekman-Larsson for the Coyotes problems. It's so misguided it's laughable. If OEL became a UFA would you want to sign him for almost any amount? I hope you would. Well that's how 30 other NHL teams feel about Tavares right now. Some can't afford him, but the ones who can are salivating at the idea of him unsigned as of July 1st.

And yet here are some Isles "fans" ready to let JT walk as if he is the reason we have an inept GM...Inept coach...Inept defense...Inept goaltending...Inept scouting...And whatever other aspect of the organization you want to throw the term "Inept" in front of. We are so lucky to have had Tavares because frankly wang/Ledecky/Malkin/snow don't deserve him.

Make no mistake - Tavares didn't fail anyone...The Islanders failed Tavares (and continues to fail us as fans).

 

[doublechili]

JT probably hurt his back trying to carry the team on his shoulders this winter.

 

[ScaredStreit]

JT probably hurt his back trying to carry the team on his shoulders this decade.

Fixed. ........................

 

[Cameraguy]

I remember when the Toronto Blue Jays with Edwin Encarnación. Edwin wanted to test the market, but before that the Jays said here’s this much $ you sign it now and Edwin said no “I want to test the market”, and he has every right to, Jays said ok, then a week later they sign Kendrys Morales. Edwin Jays don’t want you now your position is gone, agent now has to work real hard to get you those BIG bucks, Edwin signed the same amount give or take with Cleveland lol. He was so upset because he wanted to stay with the Jays.

It’s not hard you offer any player an offer and they say no, it’s a no brainer that something is up.

 

[duster19]

Snow signed Andrew Ladd to one of the worst (if not the worst) contracts in the league.

Snow signed Clutterbuck to one of the worst contracts in the NHL.

 

[sabremike]

To the people using the cap argument for not resigning JT: Tell me what that $12 million would be better spent on? I want realistic specific targets, not just "1) Cap space 2)????? 3) Profits!!!!".

 

[dlawong]

If JT leaves because of he wants to go to a top contender which Isles is not, Isles will be in position for picking up perhaps this guy in 2019 who I believe will be better than JT in 3 years:

Jack Hughes - electrifying and dynamic player … has ability to be a difference-maker … very elusive … attacks lanes … always a step ahead … plays smart, ISS Hockey 2017.

I believe that he is even better than this year's top pick.

Jack Hughes

Just hope they get that lucky. When I talked high about Matthews and Laine two years before their draft, no body paid any attention. Sometime you only need to look ahead a couple of years and see the potential.

The only question is that if Isles will ever get that lucky.

 

[aronjudge11]

If JT doesnt leave one has to question his desire to be a winner. Mark messier would leave. Trottier would leave. Derek Jeter would leave. Don mattingly should of left the yankees circus. We are seeing the Isles this year exactly who they are with no hope for change. Owners that wont change the front office...a front office that will only hire rookie coaches and a front office that is way below average. Not mediocre. People use the term mediocre if the isles were mediocre they would of won 5 playoff rounds the last 23 years not 1.

 

[dlawong]

If JT doesnt leave one has to question his desire to be a winner. Mark messier would leave. Trottier would leave. Derek Jeter would leave. Don mattingly should of left the yankees circus. We are seeing the Isles this year exactly who they are with no hope for change. Owners that wont change the front office...a front office that will only hire rookie coaches and a front office that is way below average. Not mediocre. People use the term mediocre if the isles were mediocre they would of won 5 playoff rounds the last 23 years not 1.

If JT leaves, they likely will finish last next season as they alreay has the worst goal against in the league and the goalie situtaion plus inexperienced D will only make that happen even more likely. They will have one of the toughest division in the league next year for sure. If they finish last I am ok with that than where they are now - at least they have a shot at winning the lottery and land an elite future star like the Oilers, Sabre and Leafs all did. If you can't move up, might as well go down and rebuild hard. Once you lands some real bright talents things can look up again. Is it not the Rangers are doing that exactly now?

For example, Canucks are struggling a lot now, but with Boesser and the young propsects they managed to draft the last couple of years plus more on the way this summer, their future actually may look really good.

Isles need to focus on Belmont, not Brooklyn, with or without JT. They do need a drastic front office and coaching staff change to make sure that they draft well and build a winning culture when they refill the cupboads. I think they rebuild around Barzy who I can tell is super competitive and will try to carry a team on his back game in and game out.

 

[redbull]

I might not have been too clear on some of my points, because it sounds a bit like you think I'm down on Tavares for him not carrying the Isles to the playoffs, or expecting him never to slump. Overall, my point was more to do with the discussion of ultimately what kind of salary a player of his level should get before it becomes a detriment to improving the overall roster.

My other (minor) point was that I think franchise players should be criticized when they don't play up to the standards you'd expect from them. It's not Tavares' fault Snow built a flawed roster, but that doesn't mean his actual play can't be critiqued for being well below what you'd expect and want out of a franchise player who stands to make top 1 or top 2 money in hockey.

You bring up Crosby's struggles this year, and if anything that's exactly what I'm referring to about franchise players being held to a (sometimes unreasonable) higher standard. When the Pens were struggling in the first half and it looked like the playoffs might not be a possibility, Crosby got a tremendous amount of criticism for his lackadaisical play (and rightly so -- he's supposed to be the best player in hockey but wasn't playing close to that). Crosby was by no means the ONLY reason the Pens weren't sitting in a playoff spot, but his play wasn't exactly helping matters. And thus, he was justly criticized for it. Hence, why I think it's fair game to criticize Tavares for being a no-show for much of the stretch run when his team needed him.

The point I was attempting to make about McDavid was more a case of illustrating that a player can play in a horrible situation and still produce like the best player in hockey. It was to counter the suggestion that Tavares playing on a bad team is why he's closer to 20th in league scoring rather than 1st, and that his play is understandable because of how bad the Islanders are.

But to bring it back to my overall point, this isn't my attempt to marginalize Tavares or to argue he's not a top center or can't be part of a winning team. It's more of my attempt to give reasons for why I think a]there's a limit you can spend on a player of JT's ability and b]that you can acknowledge his poor play in the second half while at the same time acknowledging that the Islanders weren't well built, as they're not mutually exclusive discussions.

Agree with all this and I misunderstood your earlier post as you suspected.

I think if Tavares produced at the 40G-90pt pace from the first half, the team would still miss the playoffs. To me it's just a great player masking team flaws - not unlike McDavid.

The market value for Tavares is what it is. Comparing him to players who signed 5-7 years ago is irrelevant. He will be overpaid based on his output just because of his unique situation as a superstar 27yr old centre. It's very likely a mistake for the team unless they win a cup. I'm sure Toews' contact will be seen as a mistake (many say it is already) - several other players too.

McDavid set a new bar and since then, everyone will make more. Draisaitl is not worth his salary compared to players at his level. If Crosby was a UFA this summer I'd expect him to make more than McDavid too - regardless of who is "better" now.

Crosby didn't look great earlier this year but I still see a superstar and what I believe it's the best player in hockey. He's just not all out tenacious like he used to be - but he paces himself, avoids danger areas and has stayed incredibly healthy. He doesn't produce as much but has pretty mundane linemates. His decision making and quickness in executing plays - thinks the game/processes better than any player I've seen.

He's far better than his point totals suggest and still the scariest player going into the playoffs (no disrespect to Geno)

Garth had nine years of an underpaid superstar that he flushed away and now he's screwed, whether he signs him or not. The team cannot succeed with these folks in charge. It's impossible.

I expect Tavares to walk and I don't blame him. I wouldn't be surprised if he took less money to pay for a contender.

We shall see

 

[CupHolders]

Crosby isn’t even remotely the same player anymore he was 5-7 years ago. Too many games played with the playoff runs and injuries. Honestly even Ovechkin isn’t close to what he was 5-7 years ago any longer. For the most part big time scorers peak between 24-27. There are some exceptions but unlike Dmen it’s rare for them to put up a career season after that age

You and Sid the Kidney are of very like mind. I feel he has posted this about the offensive output of star players for years.

Which is why the Isles coaching failed Tavares. At this stage he should have already been developed into a better two-way defensive forward.

 

[Joedoggy]

Snow should have some credit for what he built up to the loss of the 3 UFA. The team was sounder than given credit for, the main problem was the 13 or so games the team was losing a year due to point padding for the star. These losses were costly and sent a message.
One of the 3 UFA needed to go(buffalo)but the loss of the teams glue guy and the other due to contractual game playing will and has cost the team dearly. You cannot replace the glue guy..the team was ready to make deeper runs into the playoffs if they could only curb the get Johnny Points factor.
I am sure a few will argue the above, most do that have dug a hole in type. Replacements todate are feeble attempts to replace toughness and skill which the team already had, these players not only had the admirable traits they applied them for their mates...This team does not possess this anymore..Sad...Garth did good right up until he did real bad job and it cannot be reversed with the current personel. The toughness replaced with a beer leaguer and the skill replaced with a individual here to collect a check.

The deadline was key to reversing the trend and possibly making the playoffs, it didn't occur and Guy's like Lou were not going to chance giving up the guy that could have helped the isles . You really think Lou was going to trade Martin to the Isles and possibly have to play them?

Ya right

Lou's got enough problems with the Babcock

 

[Joedoggy]

Snow should have some credit for what he built up to the loss of the 3 UFA. The team was sounder than given credit for, the main problem was the 13 or so games the team was losing a year due to point padding for the star. These losses were costly and sent a message.
One of the 3 UFA needed to go(buffalo)but the loss of the teams glue guy and the other due to contractual game playing will and has cost the team dearly. You cannot replace the glue guy..the team was ready to make deeper runs into the playoffs if they could only curb the get Johnny Points factor.
I am sure a few will argue the above, most do that have dug a hole in type. Replacements todate are feeble attempts to replace toughness and skill which the team already had, these players not only had the admirable traits they applied them for their mates...This team does not possess this anymore..Sad...Garth did good right up until he did real bad and it cannot be reversed with the current personel. The toughness replaced with a beer leaguer and the skill replaced with a individual here to collect a check.
The deadline was key to reversing the trend and possibly making the playoffs, it didn't occur and Guy's like Lou were not going to chance giving up the guy that could have helped the isles . You really think Lou was going to trade Martin to the Isles and possibly have to play them?

Ya right

Lous got enough problems with the Babcock

 

[redbull]

JT and his line are HUGE reason why we are 10 points out. Been miserable ever since the new year.

And in the first half, the main reason why they were looking like a playoff team. Remember when JT and Bailey were 2-3 in scoring? Making many team flaws?

Can't blame the last 31 and ignore the first 40.

 

[YearlyLottery]

And in the first half, the main reason why they were looking like a playoff team. Remember when JT and Bailey were 2-3 in scoring? Making many team flaws?

Can't blame the last 31 and ignore the first 40.

Yes, the idea is that our top two lines should not be expected to consistently produce like that. JT is getting worn down by the way this season has gone and his looming contract negotiations.

Tavares is not the reason they aren't in the playoffs, it 100% has to do with the fact that Snow did not set out to acquire any bottom six players, any top four defensemen, or any NHL capable goaltender this season. When you look at it like that, it is not difficult to see why they suck this year. They are a few moves away, but when you don't make a few moves you don't make any noise.