Player Discussion: John Tavares- Part IV

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Glory Days

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It seems that JT is close with Weight since he used to live with the family. But he can't possibly think that Weight is a good coach at this point. However, even if JT dislikes Snow, he must know that if Snow goes, Weight likely goes too. Therefore, it is hard to conclude what the heck JT is thinking...

I hope Snow and Weight both go but I thought Compton's interview with Custance was interesting. It was suggested someone like Guerin could be brought in to replace Snow but Weight could stay. Would that be enough to appease Tavares?
 

beach

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I hope Snow and Weight both go but I thought Compton's interview with Custance was interesting. It was suggested someone like Guerin could be brought in to replace Snow but Weight could stay. Would that be enough to appease Tavares?
Maybe, but it wouldn't appease me!!! Why can't we have a GM and coach with experience and a track record. So tired of this.
 

eoin92

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I hope Snow and Weight both go but I thought Compton's interview with Custance was interesting. It was suggested someone like Guerin could be brought in to replace Snow but Weight could stay. Would that be enough to appease Tavares?
Weight is a big part of the problem. I don’t want to see him get another shot.
 
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Nosebleed40

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Weight is a disaster. IF Snow goes, he takes his hand picked crony with him. At some point, this organization needs to act professional.
 

Dipietro39

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I hope Snow and Weight both go but I thought Compton's interview with Custance was interesting. It was suggested someone like Guerin could be brought in to replace Snow but Weight could stay. Would that be enough to appease Tavares?

That would be another freaking disaster. Can we get a GM/Coach with experience and some success. Lombardi and Sutter please.
 

ScaredStreit

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as I always maintained if Tavares is going to leave I am guessing it is the end of Snow as well, and I am guessing he is going to resign, why this idiotic Snow Must Go movement was dumb, Isles were still in a playoff position, and what happens if Tavares liked Snow?

So if Tavares isn't re-signed, you'll be on the Snow Must Go bandwagon?
 

kmo429

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Just for anyone who reads the Athletic or follows TSN, I'd put about my entire life-savings there is no Tavares "sign and trade.This is obvious artificial buzz just as there is every year with UFA's, especially the big one. The more buzz the hockey media creates about JT potentially leaving, the more opposing fans get excited about the prospect of getting him even if unrealistic and the more they search TSN/etc for updated buzz and rumors. It's clickbait. It's fake news. He may leave, but he will not be signed and then traded. Lunacy if you think it's even 1% realistic.
 

Matt Watson

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Is there really even a question here? Tavares or Seguin, who would you rather have? - Sportsnet.ca

We all really like JT for being the quality person that he is and for being the glue that has kept this franchise even marginally respectable for the past 4-5 years. Having said that, this team needs some on ice fire and emotion (and not just in the locker room where his teammates swear he's great). Actually, the word they use in the clip is perfect; "dynamic". JT just isn't.
 

PROMputt

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The time to move Tavares was obviously at the trade deadline. The prospects and picks would have been a good enough return(you will never get equal value or perceived equal value) to re-boot the never ending rebuild. Many teams have had to trade a team icon and they have been able to move on(but when you let them walk for free like the Devils did with Parise the team can suffer. No playoffs since he has left until perhaps this year). NOT blaming Tavares, but winning regularly has not worked out with him on this team. Sometimes a culture change is needed(and yes I do think if/when they miss the playoffs this year Snow must go, enough is enough already). Columbus traded Nash when they could not consistently win with him and have rebuilt their team.
 

Doshell Propivo

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Is there really even a question here? Tavares or Seguin, who would you rather have? - Sportsnet.ca

We all really like JT for being the quality person that he is and for being the glue that has kept this franchise even marginally respectable for the past 4-5 years. Having said that, this team needs some on ice fire and emotion (and not just in the locker room where his teammates swear he's great). Actually, the word they use in the clip is perfect; "dynamic". JT just isn't.

What this team needs is to surround JT with more talent. Simply replacing JT with Seguin or someone "dynamic" won't make a damn bit of difference. Not to mention that if JT leaves, how are the Islanders going to land this new, superior, "dynamic" franchise center?
 
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Sidney the Kidney

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Excellent point. And I agree 100% and I have felt the same way.

Hall Malkin Mackinnon are all stepping up have huge second halves of the seasons pushing their teams to playoff births.

I understand the defense is thin and the goaltending hasn’t been great but Tavares hasn’t done his part as the leader and franchise player in the 2nd half.


I still love him and want him to retire an islander but he has to look in the mirror and put the blame on himself as much as anything else.

Excellent post.

I don't think any reasonable person would suggest Tavares is *THE* reason the Islanders are where they are. That would be an insane leap of logic, ignoring other factors such as coaching and defense, etc. But at the same time, as the "franchise player" he also shares some of the responsibility for the Islanders' collapse because of his own play.

If Tavares was doing everything in his power to help the Isles win but they just kept on losing, I don't think anyone would criticize him. Look at McDavid in Edmonton, they're a tire fire but he's still playing like the best player in hockey and in the race for the Art Ross. So it's difficult to blame McDavid for Edmonton's predicament because he's doing everything humanly possible to help his team. I don't think even the staunchest of Tavares fans can say the same about Tavares' performance in the second half.

And this kind of goes back to my earlier post about it not being wise to "throw a blank check at him", because I think Tavares is showing he's not the type who can carry a flawed team. If you throw a blank check at Tavares, you have no money left to fix the other gaping holes in the lineup. So you'll be left with what you're seeing this year; Tavares, but a bad defense and iffy goaltending (and not much bottom six depth up front).

Ultimately, the state of the team is on Snow. But Tavares' play shouldn't be immune from criticism for not showing up when his team needed him most. Because that's the burden of being a franchise player, and removing the blame also means you're not expecting him to perform like a franchise player.
 
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Instant

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I want JT to stay and am willing to offer him whatever he wants, UNLESS he demands that Snow / Weight stay. In that case, he can pack his bags with them.

Hey, if he wants those two to stay, I'll offer to personally pack his shit up.

That's a great metaphor -- truly.

Course if JT was playing his normal game, and then Barzal "arrives" and now we have two lines completely ripping up the league, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Maybe JT is sulking because he aint the "talk of the town" anymore ... butt - hurt -- like some other ex-posters used to label...

As to the first thing - no, we wouldn't have that exact conversation, but I can bet you that with this kind of defence we still would be out of playoffs.

And yeah, everything about JT's personality, and Barzal's personality, is telling us that these two can't co-exist on one team. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. I would say that he's possibly tired and frustrated and yes, he looks defeated. But he spend 9 years with this team and maybe he wants to stay, but he sees the future and it's not good.

It's a minor portion of the fan base and a few trolls on this board.

But it's incredibly stupid to suggest that Barzal is better, younger, faster and we have no need for JT at his asking price. Are some fans so pathetic that they can't see what it takes to have a perennial playoff team and one that can challenge for a cup?!

Elite players AND depth AND a strong goalie AND GREAT defense.

So the Pens add Kessel to a lineup that already had Crosby and Malkin and Murray/Fleury and Letang. With holes on defense (Latang injured as well).

And some fans are looking to exile Tavares because he's in a slump.

Beyond stupid.

It's a very loud portion of the fanbase. Here it still looks quite good, but social media? That's just a bag of crazy cats.

Of course it's incredibly stupid to suggest that, but some of the fans think it's Barzal's team now. And leaving (for now) my opinion about putting this shit team on a 20 year old's shoulders, Barzal's not enough to win, to make playoffs, to do anything. It would be the same f***ing story that we've seen since 2009.
 

Instant

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And this kind of goes back to my earlier post about it not being wise to "throw a blank check at him", because I think Tavares is showing he's not the type who can carry a flawed team. If you throw a blank check at Tavares, you have no money left to fix the other gaping holes in the lineup. So you'll be left with what you're seeing this year; Tavares, but a bad defense and iffy goaltending (and not much bottom six depth up front).

Ultimately, the state of the team is on Snow. But Tavares' play shouldn't be immune from criticism for not showing up when his team needed him most. Because that's the burden of being a franchise player, and removing the blame also means you're not expecting him to perform like a franchise player.

The Isles can't throw a blank check at anyone, let's be fair, because with the amount of stupid contracts we already have the cap is going to be an issue really soon.

And you know, I think it's one thing to come here and say "okay, so he's playing poorly, he's making this and this and this mistake" - that's completely fine. But coming up with crazy theories like the one that he was lying to Snow about staying with the Isles so Snow wouldn't trade him because he didn't want to risk injury on a playoff run with some other team before signing big contract this summer? That is what's making me angry.
 

seafoam

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“The one thing I wonder about, which was brought to my attention I would say a week or so ago by another team who has been in a similar situation with a star player – not at the stature of Tavares, but a star player – whereby the player kept saying, ‘Nah, you know what, I just want to wait. I don’t want to talk. I want to wait until the end of the season. It’s a distraction.’ All of these things.
“And the general manager of the club said, ‘Yeah, guess what – that’s not your call. I’m going to hit you with 15 proposals and contract extension options and if you choose to dismiss them, well, that’s your call. That’s up to you. You don’t have to negotiate. But I’m going to make sure I damn well do my job as a general manager to give you every reason to entice out of your mode of silence.’
“And I think if you want to be critical of Snow and the Islanders, maybe they’ve been too patient and appreciative of John Tavares and giving him his space. Maybe what they should have done along the way is hit Pat Brisson with a contract extension offer every week since the beginning of the season or back to July 1 when they can talk extension to try and get him to sign long term.
“They didn’t do that. Again, it’s hard to be overly-critical, but that’s not the position that other teams would have taken.”

 

Quickdraw2828

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Of course it's incredibly stupid to suggest that, but some of the fans think it's Barzal's team now.

I'm in that crowd. I'm more excited when Barzal has the puck. I appreciate everything JT has done, but he has had maybe 2 elite years and I don't see why he is as highly regarded as he is. A lot of this year is on him, and I do think he had decent talent to play with.

I still hope he is signed, but he is going to get a lot more than he's worth. Even without taking their ages into consideration, I'd feel a lot worse about losing Barzal than JT.
 
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seafoam

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Excellent post.

I don't think any reasonable person would suggest Tavares is *THE* reason the Islanders are where they are. That would be an insane leap of logic, ignoring other factors such as coaching and defense, etc. But at the same time, as the "franchise player" he also shares some of the responsibility for the Islanders' collapse because of his own play.

If Tavares was doing everything in his power to help the Isles win but they just kept on losing, I don't think anyone would criticize him. Look at McDavid in Edmonton, they're a tire fire but he's still playing like the best player in hockey and in the race for the Art Ross. So it's difficult to blame McDavid for Edmonton's predicament because he's doing everything humanly possible to help his team. I don't think even the staunchest of Tavares fans can say the same about Tavares' performance in the second half.

And this kind of goes back to my earlier post about it not being wise to "throw a blank check at him", because I think Tavares is showing he's not the type who can carry a flawed team. If you throw a blank check at Tavares, you have no money left to fix the other gaping holes in the lineup. So you'll be left with what you're seeing this year; Tavares, but a bad defense and iffy goaltending (and not much bottom six depth up front).

Ultimately, the state of the team is on Snow. But Tavares' play shouldn't be immune from criticism for not showing up when his team needed him most. Because that's the burden of being a franchise player, and removing the blame also means you're not expecting him to perform like a franchise player.

Not sure what your idea of a blank check is (15m per?), because I think the Islanders can win with Tavares carrying a cap hit in the 10-12M per range.

The gaping holes you mention are present on this team, I agree. With that said, good drafting is what gives you depth up front, and you HAVE TO draft and develop your own defensemen. They just rarely become available and there is always a limited market for them.

On top of that, good coaching can elevate the play of depth guys and can develop a system that benefits their goalies.

Garth Snow has not done well enough at the draft table continue to churn out forwards for his lineup and has surely not drafted and developed his to defenseman. Hell, he was a goalie and has never drafted and developed one either! but I don’t see that as a necessity from a GM.

Capuano was able to elevate the play of depth guys, but wasn’t able to get much out of the rest of the team, and Weight only knows how to extract talent from top six forwards.

Tavares is not even close to being at fault for this, but yes he has played shitty. Wouldn’t you if the the rebuilding Rangers were ahead of you in the standings?

What I see with Tavares right now is a beaten down and broken player mentally.
 
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Instant

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I'm in that crowd. I'm more excited when Barzal has the puck. I appreciate everything JT has done, but he has had maybe 2 elite years and I don't see why he is as highly regarded as he is. A lot of this year is on him, and I do think he had decent talent to play with.

I still hope he is signed, but he is going to get a lot more than he's worth. Even without taking their ages into consideration, I'd feel a lot worse about losing Barzal than JT.

You know, I get that. Barzal is the reason I got back to watching the Isles this season. His play is way more exciting. But to state that this is his team now, I need more time than one season.

And I won't change my mind - if our defence was marginally better, we would survive the great Tavares' slump of 2018 in much, much better spirits. This shit show of a team we have this season is All. On. Snow.
 

Lame Lambert

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You know, I get that. Barzal is the reason I got back to watching the Isles this season. His play is way more exciting. But to state that this is his team now, I need more time than one season.

And I won't change my mind - if our defence was marginally better, we would survive the great Tavares' slump of 2018 in much, much better spirits. This **** show of a team we have this season is All. On. Snow.
I’m with you, I’m not looking to scapegoat any of these players for the horrendous season. This all falls on Snow.
 
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Sidney the Kidney

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Not sure what your idea of a blank check is (15m per?), because I think the Islanders can win with Tavares carrying a cap hit in the 10-12M per range.

I've heard the talking heads on TSN (Dreger, Lebrun) mention numbers like $15 million per year. I also have heard people talk about him getting "max money". Those would be examples of cap hits that, IMO, would absolutely come back to haunt any team (Islander or if he goes free agent) that signed him to it.

My personal number would be within range of his "peers". Look at the contracts of guys who produce similar to him, adjust based on percentage of the current cap ceiling, and that's about what I'd say is fair for him. Even add an extra $500k to that total, if that's what it takes for him to re-sign. Anything above that and I think you're starting to get into the territory where his contract prevents the new GM (assuming Snow is finally fired, otherwise this is moot) from fixing the other holes in the lineup.

For instance, these are the players who I'd consider "comparables" to Tavares, both in terms of age and performance over the last however many years, their cap hits, and what the cap ceiling was when they signed their deals:

Giroux - $8.275 million ($69 million)
Stamkos - $8.5 million ($75 million)
Getzlaf - $8.25 million ($64.3 million)
Kopitar - $10 million ($73 million)
Toews - $10.5 million ($71.4 million)
Kane - $10.5 million ($71.4 million)

Toews and Kane come in at the highest percentage of the cap at around 14.7% each, with Stamkos coming in at the lowest percentage of the cap at just over 11%. So assuming a $82 million cap next season, that would put Tavares' comparable salary at between $9 million to $12 million per year.

IMO, the target number should be between $10 million to $11 million, which would both pay Tavares fairly and leave enough cap space to address the other needs.

The gaping holes you mention are present on this team, I agree. With that said, good drafting is what gives you depth up front, and you HAVE TO draft and develop your own defensemen. They just rarely become available and there is always a limited market for them.

To an extent, for sure. But, you also have to have some cap space available for when someone you need becomes available. Tying up too much money in one player means less available cap space should a player that plays another position of need become available.

Keep in mind that while drafting and developing is certainly huge for teams to become contenders, no team has ever won the Cup with a roster 100% filled by players they drafted. Chicago, Los Angeles, Pittsburgh, Boston, Detroit, they've all won Cups in large part due to additions. And those additions came with hefty cap hits.

On top of that, good coaching can elevate the play of depth guys and can develop a system that benefits their goalies.

Garth Snow has not done well enough at the draft table continue to churn out forwards for his lineup and has surely not drafted and developed his to defenseman. Hell, he was a goalie and has never drafted and developed one either! but I don’t see that as a necessity from a GM.

Capuano was able to elevate the play of depth guys, but wasn’t able to get much out of the rest of the team, and Weight only knows how to extract talent from top six forwards.

I agree 100%. Which is why I said originally I'm not blaming Tavares for this season. Again, look no further than Edmonton to see how even if a guy is playing like the best player in hockey, one man alone can't change the fortunes of an ineptly run club. I was merely commenting on the only thing Tavares can control: his individual performance.
 

Matt Watson

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What this team needs is to surround JT with more talent. Simply replacing JT with Seguin or someone "dynamic" won't make a damn bit of difference. Not to mention that if JT leaves, how are the Islanders going to land this new, superior, "dynamic" franchise center?
Easy there. This was a hypothetical put out there by the guys at Hockey Central @ Noon and the question was: if you had a choice between Seguin and Tavares, one or the other, who would you choose? All I did was lay out my reasons why I would choose Seguin.That's all. No one was saying that it's going to happen or that it is being considered or anything like that.
 
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