Speculation: Jets vs Leafs: why were there 2 different results?

[ps241]

Regarding the "youth excuse" comparison between TO and WPG, this website lists the Jets as a full year younger on average:

2nd youngest: Jets, avg age 25.759
7th youngest: Leafs, avg age 26.772

Yea but they integrated six rookies and many of them were major contributors so no matter what they were a young team too. I look at the youth as a push we were both young so youth can't really be used as an excuse.

Goaltending
Injuries
Special teams
Coaching

The rest is noise IMO.

I think the Jets have the talent on par with the other young playoff teams so I remain optimistic. Get our goaltending fixed and have normal health and I expect us to make the playoffs.

 

[Whileee]

You would think kompon could handle it. If Pmo stays I'd love to at least see all assistants go. Hire paul Maclean to run special teams.

Kompon had zero experience working with Maurice. Then the Jets played almost half a season without a real practice due to the schedule, which was known in advance. I don't know how much impact it had, but it can't have helped and I thought it was a bad idea at the time, and still think it was the wrong priority.

 

[Gm0ney]

Leafs Powerplay: 24.2%, 2nd in NHL
Leafs Penatly Kill: 83.0%, 8th

Jets Powerplay: 17.8%, 22nd
Jets Penalty Kill: 76.9%, 28th

It's hard to argue we don't have the offensive horses to run a decent powerplay...or that we have a worse defensive lineup than the Leafs. We do have demonstrably worse systems and personnel decision making. But let's just say it was all injuries and absolve anyone of any accountability...

 

[Ducky10]

The team was reasonably healthy from mid December on and the schedule lightened considerably in the second half. They didn't get a whole lot better in a number of areas. I don't consider our team as one that is low IQ, yet they look clueless way too often, that usually points in one direction.

The training camp thing is a lot of noise in my opinion as well, it shouldn't take that long to get a team understanding a system, if it makes sense and suits their style of play. How many times have we seen coaches come along mid season and get teams playing a new system? Plenty, and with little time to implement. There is a disconnect between the system and the players right now, either it's the wrong one for how this team is assembled or it's the failure of the coaching staff to properly communicate it.

 

[KingBogo]

Yea but they integrated six rookies and many of them were major contributors so no matter what they were a young team too. I look at the youth as a push we were both young so youth can't really be used as an excuse.

Goaltending
Injuries
Special teams
Coaching

The rest is noise IMO.

I think the Jets have the talent on par with the other young playoff teams so I remain optimistic. Get our goaltending fixed and have normal health and I expect us to make the playoffs.

Well said. Our 18-24 y/o young core compares well against any team in the league. That is who we will contend with. Just add a quality goalie and an improvement behind the bench and we will be in the mix one day soon.

 

[ps241]

True, but I think Columbus had a more veteran team and neither of those teams had the horrendous early season schedule the Jets had. Also, the Jets had a coach running training camp who had no experience with Maurice (Kompon). They just seemed out of sorts and never really got sorted out. I just think it was he wrong way to set priorities for a coach that had a big task ahead.

I 100% agree that the priority was wrong.....PMo had full knowledge of the schedule and what the practice times would tentatively look like for the first 60 days. He was also fully aware he had two new assistants and a returning veteran in Huddy. He obviously underestimated the impact or overestimated his assistants but it didn't seem like they got the most out of the training camp.

 

[JetsFan815]

With the WC thing, you guys are blaming bad execution when the real problem was bad ideas. Seems to me that the coaching staff planned what they were going to do systems wise in the offseason. Kompon/Huddy implemented that at training camp. The problem seems to me that the ideas they came up with in the offseason weren't the right ones for this group. I doubt the results would have been much different of Maurice was here. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. Things were off with the Jets since training camp, they were getting outshot in most preseason games, didn't matter if they were playing younger players, veterans or a mixture, they were getting outshot. That same problem became apparent in the regular season as the season went on, that points to bad ideas than bad execution to me.

 

[Couchcaptain]

I have watched quite a bunch of Leafs games this season. Why are they better? I think it's quite obvious when you watch them play.
They have a system, they play with system that works.. they don't play kids outdoor hockey like Jets do. That system leads me to..
My points
1. Babcock
2. Goaltending
3. Mike ****ing Babcock

Babcock has infected them with winning culture.. not Maurices losing excuse after excuse rotten culture.

 

[Whileee]

Leafs Powerplay: 24.2%, 2nd in NHL
Leafs Penatly Kill: 83.0%, 8th

Jets Powerplay: 17.8%, 22nd
Jets Penalty Kill: 76.9%, 28th

It's hard to argue we don't have the offensive horses to run a decent powerplay...or that we have a worse defensive lineup than the Leafs. We do have demonstrably worse systems and personnel decision making. But let's just say it was all injuries and absolve anyone of any accountability...

Because injuries have no effect on special teams. You've watched Stuart in the PK, right?

Leafs have had a pretty charmed season. I highly doubt they'll replicate the PP success.

Coaching has had it's problems, and not just this season. But dismissing injuries is like saying that having better players playing doesn't affect results.

 

[Whileee]

I 100% agree that the priority was wrong.....PMo had full knowledge of the schedule and what the practice times would tentatively look like for the first 60 days. He was also fully aware he had two new assistants and a returning veteran in Huddy. He obviously underestimated the impact or overestimated his assistants but it didn't seem like they got the most out of the training camp.

It also took him a long time to assess how best to use his new young players. I just think you can't take training camp for granted, and expecting a brand new assistant to run it is asking for a slow start, which was compounded by missing their 2nd C and top D for the first month.

 

[JetsFan815]

Mostly agree but - a)schedule - we did have a record setting tough schedule, made even harder by the forced absence of our coach during pre-season with a very inexperienced team. b) Special Teams - what do you mean? ST's are a result of our bad coaching, not an excuse. c) Division - gave us a break this year. Faded a bit. d) Travel is an ongoing fact of life in the Western Conference. It does make it tougher but can't be used as an excuse because it isn't going to change. However, in context with the schedule, youth, etc us being the team with the 2nd or 3rd worst travel load is another factor.

There is quite a lot of chicken or egg discussion in this thread and a lot of excuse making. The trouble with the excuses is that they are real, as are the specific criticisms of our coaching. So is the fact that our management team and coaching staff are all going to be back next year.

Since no one is being held accountable this year I think the standard of accountability has to be that much higher next year. If they don't start well then everybody has to go. Coaches, Chevy, everybody. One at a time or all at once. No more excuses.

Sorry I didn't mean to minimize the role of special teams in the Jets struggles, the poster I was replying to started their post by decrying Babcock as a coach in a thread intended to compare the Jets with the Leafs and then went on to use Special Teams as a reason behind the lack of success of the Jets. My point was that Special teams can theoretically be controlled by the coaching staff so that should fall under the umbrella of coaching and it seemed a bit disingenuous to me to put down Babcock in one breath, lay the blame of the Jets struggles on a coaching controlled factor in another and then take a shot at criticism of Jets coaching.

I don't think schedule or travel can be used as the reason behind the Jets struggles. Every team has a hard schedule this season. I know that 32 games in 60 days thing keeps getting repeated as TSN was pushing that narrative all through the 1st half of the season but I wonder what the smallest days:games ratio you could get for every team over the largest possible time window. Since every team has the same amount of total time to play their 82 games, my guess is that you can find a large enough time window for any team over which their days:games ratio looks pretty bad.

 

[Flair Hay]

Sorry I didn't mean to minimize the role of special teams in the Jets struggles, the poster I was replying to started their post by decrying Babcock as a coach in a thread intended to compare the Jets with the Leafs and then went on to use Special Teams as a reason behind the lack of success of the Jets. My point was that Special teams can theoretically be controlled by the coaching staff so that should fall under the umbrella of coaching and it seemed a bit disingenuous to me to put down Babcock in one breath, lay the blame of the Jets struggles on a coaching controlled factor in another and then take a shot at criticism of Jets coaching.

I don't think schedule or travel can be used as the reason behind the Jets struggles. Every team has a hard schedule this season. I know that 32 games in 60 days thing keeps getting repeated as TSN was pushing that narrative all through the 1st half of the season but I wonder what the smallest days:games ratio you could get for every team over the largest possible time window. Since every team has the same amount of total time to play their 82 games, my guess is that you can find a large enough time window for any team over which their days:games ratio looks pretty bad.

Yeah they had a great schedule the second half of the year to make up for it and they were healthy. Good teams go on winning streaks and we never did.

It wasn't like we lost heartbreakers every time we won 2 games and lost the 3rd. A lot of the time it was just poor performance. I think a lot of that is a lack of leadership and experience.

Losing Ladd was the right move long term but we got worse losing him and signing Matthias. He was a big part of the "tough to play against" mentality we had that we have lost.

Basically, we didn't make it this year because we weren't good enough. Not because we had the world working against us.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

I don't think schedule or travel can be used as the reason behind the Jets struggles. Every team has a hard schedule this season. I know that 32 games in 60 days thing keeps getting repeated as TSN was pushing that narrative all through the 1st half of the season but I wonder what the smallest days:games ratio you could get for every team over the largest possible time window. Since every team has the same amount of total time to play their 82 games, my guess is that you can find a large enough time window for any team over which their days:games ratio looks pretty bad.

Historically, their schedule at the beginning of the season was the worst ever foisted on an NHL team. I don't think many are stating that it's the only reason for their poor season, simply that it was a factor.

For me, I rate it as:

Coaching (5v5 possession play and special teams)
Goaltending
Injuries
Schedule

For me, those are the main factors in the difference between the Jets and the Leafs. It's possible that Goaltending could have saved us on the PK as well, so perhaps those first two should be swapped. In any event, I personally count the first two as having the largest effect on the season's results.

 

[surixon]

With the WC thing, you guys are blaming bad execution when the real problem was bad ideas. Seems to me that the coaching staff planned what they were going to do systems wise in the offseason. Kompon/Huddy implemented that at training camp. The problem seems to me that the ideas they came up with in the offseason weren't the right ones for this group. I doubt the results would have been much different of Maurice was here. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. Things were off with the Jets since training camp, they were getting outshot in most preseason games, didn't matter if they were playing younger players, veterans or a mixture, they were getting outshot. That same problem became apparent in the regular season as the season went on, that points to bad ideas than bad execution to me.

I attended a number of training camp sessions and they actually did very little in the way of systems. It was an awful lot of skating and NZ passing and gap control drills. Which is actually the one area they do well in this year. Aavco attended more and I think he will be able to collaborate.

I was quite annoyed with the lack of focus on a system myself.

 

[Saintb]

teams with a good system move the puck more quickly. others spend that split second with the puck figuring out what to do. it is pretty easy to spot..

 

[Gm0ney]

Because injuries have no effect on special teams. You've watched Stuart in the PK, right?

Leafs have had a pretty charmed season. I highly doubt they'll replicate the PP success.

Coaching has had it's problems, and not just this season. But dismissing injuries is like saying that having better players playing doesn't affect results.

The Jets' injuries probably have less effect on special teams than the horrible systems or personnel decisions (Stu's an example of the latter).

We've got 4 x 60 point scorers and we can't cobble together a decent powerplay, injuries or not? Myers was a fixture on last year's 30th ranked unit, so his injuries may have actually helped there.

 

[Whileee]

The Jets' injuries probably have less effect on special teams than the horrible systems or personnel decisions (Stu's an example of the latter).

We've got 4 x 60 point scorers and we can't cobble together a decent powerplay, injuries or not? Myers was a fixture on last year's 30th ranked unit, so his injuries may have actually helped there.

Stu wouldn't even be in the lineup if not for injuries.

I agree about bad personnel decisions on the PP, but more the positioning. Wheeler is a bad choice for half wall... So is Perreault.

 

[Board Bard]

babcock was at the tournament as well it seems to me.

Yep, Maurice's TC absence is just another excuse. The Jets looked better before he got back, then started looking crappy again when he returned. His permanent absence is what the team needs as far as coaching goes.

 

[Jets4Life]

Thought we could engage in some intelligent discussion and hoping to avoid the same-old, same-old comments.

Taking a look at the Leafs vs the Jets and the number of rookies on each team, I'm wondering how the Leafs had greater success compared to the Jets.

The Leafs likely have better goaltending and, lacking a true goaltending prospect, they went out and traded for a young, semi-unproven goaltender with a high ceiling. so perhaps that's one area.

then again, the Jets' blueline is head and shoulders above the Leafs blueline (when the Jets are healthy). Gardiner's the team's #2 D-man, and i'd guess he'd be the Jets' 4th or 5th dman.

Is Babcock that much more effective than Maurice?
Do the Leafs just happen to have more NHL-ready or impactful rookies?

Two words; Better management.

 

[JetsFan815]

Historically, their schedule at the beginning of the season was the worst ever foisted on an NHL team. I don't think many are stating that it's the only reason for their poor season, simply that it was a factor.

For me, I rate it as:

Coaching (5v5 possession play and special teams)
Goaltending
Injuries
Schedule

For me, those are the main factors in the difference between the Jets and the Leafs. It's possible that Goaltending could have saved us on the PK as well, so perhaps those first two should be swapped. In any event, I personally count the first two as having the largest effect on the season's results.

I would agree with that ranking of Jets woes.

However my point about the schedule is that it might be even be less of a factor than people think esp if the "32 games in the first 60 days" is the statistic that people are basing it on. What is so special about the first 60 days (other than it being a convenient range for TSN analysts to look up data for)? The number of games played between day 30 and day 90 should be as relevant when talking about the strength of schedule (some might argue that the later the bad stretch comes in the season, the worse it is due to players already being fatigued and potential injuries). Since every team has roughly the same number of days to play out their 82 games, it seems to me that if they had an easier first 60 day window, they would pay the price for that in another window assuming a somewhat fair schedule. I might look into it

 

[Say What]

I would agree with that ranking of Jets woes.

However my point about the schedule is that it might be even be less of a factor than people think esp if the "32 games in the first 60 days" is the statistic that people are basing it on. What is so special about the first 60 days (other than it being a convenient range for TSN analysts to look up data for)? The number of games played between day 30 and day 90 should be as relevant when talking about the strength of schedule (some might argue that the later the bad stretch comes in the season, the worse it is due to players already being fatigued and potential injuries). Since every team has roughly the same number of days to play out their 82 games, it seems to me that if they had an easier first 60 day window, they would pay the price for that in another window assuming a somewhat fair schedule. I might look into it

You won't find the confirmation you're looking for, once you factor in travel through different time zones, back to back games (at least 5) within those 60 days; coupled with overall distance travelled and the short turnarounds before re-entering into yet another time zone. 5 in 8 days twice, 3 in 4 days, 4 in 6 days etc. etc. The travel schedule is by far one of the most brutal league wide (not relating it to anything discussed above...just saying).

 

[Ducky10]

With the WC thing, you guys are blaming bad execution when the real problem was bad ideas. Seems to me that the coaching staff planned what they were going to do systems wise in the offseason. Kompon/Huddy implemented that at training camp. The problem seems to me that the ideas they came up with in the offseason weren't the right ones for this group. I doubt the results would have been much different of Maurice was here. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. Things were off with the Jets since training camp, they were getting outshot in most preseason games, didn't matter if they were playing younger players, veterans or a mixture, they were getting outshot. That same problem became apparent in the regular season as the season went on, that points to bad ideas than bad execution to me.

Yep, this is my take on it as well.

 

[Ducky10]

With the WC thing, you guys are blaming bad execution when the real problem was bad ideas. Seems to me that the coaching staff planned what they were going to do systems wise in the offseason. Kompon/Huddy implemented that at training camp. The problem seems to me that the ideas they came up with in the offseason weren't the right ones for this group. I doubt the results would have been much different of Maurice was here. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. Things were off with the Jets since training camp, they were getting outshot in most preseason games, didn't matter if they were playing younger players, veterans or a mixture, they were getting outshot. That same problem became apparent in the regular season as the season went on, that points to bad ideas than bad execution to me.

Duplicate

 

[Puckatron 3000]

You're right JetsFan815 that it shouldn't matter when that 32 games in 60 happened. So I see what you're saying. But regardless of when it happened, that's a marathon. More than a game every two days, for a very prolonged stretch.

It actually wouldn't surprise me if that beats the NHL record for "most games played in 60 days" too, regardless of when it happened. If other teams had to go through a similar stretch anywhere during their season, then I would agree it shouldn't count as an excuse. I'm guessing they didn't, but I'm not quite motivated enough to actually go check.

As to Whileee's point, I agree it was a mistake for Maurice to be gone during TC. That compounded with the inability to practice for the first 40% or so of the season, is bound to cause problems. If someone can just as easily draw up a plan on a napkin and pass it off to assistant coaches to implement, I doubt coaches would make as much coin as they do.

 

[Whileee]

With the WC thing, you guys are blaming bad execution when the real problem was bad ideas. Seems to me that the coaching staff planned what they were going to do systems wise in the offseason. Kompon/Huddy implemented that at training camp. The problem seems to me that the ideas they came up with in the offseason weren't the right ones for this group. I doubt the results would have been much different of Maurice was here. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. Things were off with the Jets since training camp, they were getting outshot in most preseason games, didn't matter if they were playing younger players, veterans or a mixture, they were getting outshot. That same problem became apparent in the regular season as the season went on, that points to bad ideas than bad execution to me.

How was Maurice able to coach such an effective 5v5 system in 2014/15? Did he get dumber? It's a bit of a mystery.