Speculation: Jets vs Leafs: why were there 2 different results?

HannuJ

Registered User
Nov 20, 2011
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Toronno
Thought we could engage in some intelligent discussion and hoping to avoid the same-old, same-old comments.

Taking a look at the Leafs vs the Jets and the number of rookies on each team, I'm wondering how the Leafs had greater success compared to the Jets.

The Leafs likely have better goaltending and, lacking a true goaltending prospect, they went out and traded for a young, semi-unproven goaltender with a high ceiling. so perhaps that's one area.

then again, the Jets' blueline is head and shoulders above the Leafs blueline (when the Jets are healthy). Gardiner's the team's #2 D-man, and i'd guess he'd be the Jets' 4th or 5th dman.

Is Babcock that much more effective than Maurice?
Do the Leafs just happen to have more NHL-ready or impactful rookies?
 

surixon

Registered User
Jul 12, 2003
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Winnipeg
Thought we could engage in some intelligent discussion and hoping to avoid the same-old, same-old comments.

Taking a look at the Leafs vs the Jets and the number of rookies on each team, I'm wondering how the Leafs had greater success compared to the Jets.

The Leafs likely have better goaltending and, lacking a true goaltending prospect, they went out and traded for a young, semi-unproven goaltender with a high ceiling. so perhaps that's one area.

then again, the Jets' blueline is head and shoulders above the Leafs blueline (when the Jets are healthy). Gardiner's the team's #2 D-man, and i'd guess he'd be the Jets' 4th or 5th dman.

Is Babcock that much more effective than Maurice?
Do the Leafs just happen to have more NHL-ready or impactful rookies?

They have better coaching. You just need to look at how good both of their special teams units are in comparison to ours.

Also they have been one of the healthiest teams this year without one significant injury other than Rielly missing a couple of games.

They'd likely be in a different position in the standings had they suffered the same injury situation as us.
 

Constable

corona fiend
Mar 17, 2014
3,390
115
Thought we could engage in some intelligent discussion and hoping to avoid the same-old, same-old comments.

Taking a look at the Leafs vs the Jets and the number of rookies on each team, I'm wondering how the Leafs had greater success compared to the Jets.

The Leafs likely have better goaltending and, lacking a true goaltending prospect, they went out and traded for a young, semi-unproven goaltender with a high ceiling. so perhaps that's one area.

then again, the Jets' blueline is head and shoulders above the Leafs blueline (when the Jets are healthy). Gardiner's the team's #2 D-man, and i'd guess he'd be the Jets' 4th or 5th dman.

Is Babcock that much more effective than Maurice?
Do the Leafs just happen to have more NHL-ready or impactful rookies?

Usage of players has been utter **** under Maurice, we ice Stuart/Chiarot regularly and the team only shows up in front of Hellebuyck fully a 3rd of the time
 

Joe Hallenback

Moderator
Mar 4, 2005
15,358
21,345
Injuries
Goaltending
Coaching

In whichever order you like.

Pretty much this

On coaching I would also add that its either systems play on PK/PP or players not performing but I think they made adjustments as the season went along.
 

Puckatron 3000

Glitchy Prototype
Feb 4, 2014
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The things that undoubtedly made a difference: Goaltending, injuries, and probably schedule.

There's also a reason Babcock's salary is well over double any other coach in the NHL. But it's tough to say objectively how much his coaching exceeded Maurice's, since it is a very difficult thing to measure. Still, I'm sure it was a factor, just not sure how much.
 

ps241

The Ballad of Ville Bobby
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Mar 10, 2010
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Injuries (massive difference)

Management: fixed their goaltending (Huge difference)

special teams (leafs have the #2 ranked PP and the 8th ranked PK)

coaching (see special teams)


Babcock has done a masterful job with a team that is younger than the Jets. Credit to the GM for also fixing the net on what Winnipeg would call a throw away season??
 

redneckjabronie

Registered User
Nov 17, 2015
92
42
It's easy: Winning Infrastructure

Babcock and Shanahan are proven winners and know how to build a team, and develop young players to make this happen.

You can make the same argument for Edmonton, Chiarelli and McLellan have winning pedigrees.

Now benchmark this with Chevy-Maurice. Stark difference

Plenty of examples. Do you think Edmonton or Toronto would keep giving lineup spots to Thorburn or big minutes to 4th line talents like Lowry at the expense of talented guys who have seasoning such as Petan or Dano? I don't think so.
 

Channelcat

Unhinged user
Feb 8, 2013
17,794
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Canada
Lately the Jets have shown they can win with average or subpar goaltending. Yes, its a major issue, but it far more than that. I think we were about 40 games in before I thought we played a "great" game. This team blew SO many easy points earlier in the season.
 

surixon

Registered User
Jul 12, 2003
48,728
69,088
Winnipeg
It's easy: Winning Infrastructure

Babcock and Shanahan are proven winners and know how to build a team, and develop young players to make this happen.

You can make the same argument for Edmonton, Chiarelli and McLellan have winning pedigrees.

Now benchmark this with Chevy-Maurice. Stark difference

Plenty of examples. Do you think Edmonton or Toronto would keep giving lineup spots to Thorburn or big minutes to 4th line talents like Lowry at the expense of talented guys who have seasoning such as Petan or Dano? I don't think so.

Shanahan is a proven winner at the executive level? News to me.
 

redneckjabronie

Registered User
Nov 17, 2015
92
42
Shanahan is a proven winner at the executive level? News to me.

Umm, do you remember where he played and how that kind of culture rubs off on all?

If you are defending the local boys, please enlighten us on what kind of NHL winning influence they have had?
 

LowLefty

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Dec 29, 2016
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Everything that has been mentioned plus if I had a choice where to contend, I would take the Atlantic's competition / travel over the central any day.
 

Flair Hay

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Jun 22, 2010
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Babcock being a top coach is a big one. Leafs are getting the most out of Bozak and Kadri. Before the season we would have said Little is way better than both but this year it's been pretty even. Not to mention their PP is one of the best when ours should be one of the best but wasn't.

Injuries definitely slowed us a bit but our record has been pretty consistent with or without them.

Andersen has been better than Hellebuyck when before the year moat of us figured they'd be about even. And behind a worse D on paper.

No reason we can't be right back to neck and neck with them next year. But if we are still lagging well behind next year, heads will have to roll. Time has come for us to be paying more attention to putting together a cohesive team and not just a collection of players.
 

Narow

Registered User
Nov 11, 2016
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706
Leafs have way better system of play.. they get lots of chances.

Coaching...all those penalties and bad defense

No starter goalie

Leafs have good production on 3 lines..
 

Saintb

Registered User
May 5, 2016
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Saintb
It's easy: Winning Infrastructure

Babcock and Shanahan are proven winners and know how to build a team, and develop young players to make this happen.

You can make the same argument for Edmonton, Chiarelli and McLellan have winning pedigrees.

Now benchmark this with Chevy-Maurice. Stark difference

Plenty of examples. Do you think Edmonton or Toronto would keep giving lineup spots to Thorburn or big minutes to 4th line talents like Lowry at the expense of talented guys who have seasoning such as Petan or Dano? I don't think so.
is matt martin that much better than thorburn? or tootoo in Chicago?
 

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
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Babcock's a good coach, but it's hard to compare coaching when there is such a huge discrepancy in injuries and goaltending. Flip the injury situation and I'm fairly confident that the Jets would finish comfortably ahead of the Leafs this season. There's no way they could have coped with the extent and impact of the injuries (and Trouba's delayed signing) that the Jets endured.
 

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
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Babcock being a top coach is a big one. Leafs are getting the most out of Bozak and Kadri. Before the season we would have said Little is way better than both but this year it's been pretty even. Not to mention their PP is one of the best when ours should be one of the best but wasn't.

Injuries definitely slowed us a bit but our record has been pretty consistent with or without them.

Andersen has been better than Hellebuyck when before the year moat of us figured they'd be about even. And behind a worse D on paper.

No reason we can't be right back to neck and neck with them next year. But if we are still lagging well behind next year, heads will have to roll. Time has come for us to be paying more attention to putting together a cohesive team and not just a collection of players.

Injuries have a lingering impact in several ways. Many core players get too much work and wear down (e.g. Buff, Wheeler), injured players take time to get back to full productivity after returning (e.g. Little, Perreault, Enstrom), teams take time to adjust and implement systems with appropriate roles, etc. Injuries aren't an "excuse", they are a consequential fact in pro sports, just ask Dallas and Tampa Bay if you don't think it affected the Jets.
 

Gil Fisher

Registered User
Mar 18, 2012
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Winnipeg
Special teams and goaltending likely accounts for all of the difference in points.

Leafs were also a better 5v5 team than us for the first time in Jets 2.0 I believe.
 

Neuf

Leaving HFBoards for now
Dec 17, 2016
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Leadership.

Chevy and Maurice approached this as a development year, meaning a throwaway, see what we have, evaluate. There was no expectation going in.

Shanahan and Babcock approached this as a development year, meaning let the kids go for it, work them hard, but also believe in them. They added at the deadline - that speaks volumes. They want their guys to get a taste for the push and the playoffs.

Jets don't know what it's like to play like that. Out vets are used to losing, excuses, and moral victories. Our coach is ok with no accountability and using excuses. Our GM has a good roster but there are obvious holes ignored, and obvious coaching systems that are failing.

We underperformed, and Toronto overperformed. That's leadership, in my opinion.
 

ps241

The Ballad of Ville Bobby
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Mar 10, 2010
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Babcock's a good coach, but it's hard to compare coaching when there is such a huge discrepancy in injuries and goaltending. Flip the injury situation and I'm fairly confident that the Jets would finish comfortably ahead of the Leafs this season. There's no way they could have coped with the extent and impact of the injuries (and Trouba's delayed signing) that the Jets endured.

I don't think they could have endured the injury issues that we had but I think the special teams performance alone is pretty damning. They crushed us and we had more than enough healthy talent all season to do away better on the PP. They also didn't have the massive discipline problems our team had. They needed the goaltending and health to finish this well but there were some pretty strong indicators they were coached better than us despite that.
 

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