Jeremy Jacobs bullish on Houston and Seattle, not Quebec

powerstuck

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What makes you think a team in Houston would lose money? The Stars make money and at one time not too long ago before Tom Hicks' financial problems they were top 10 in the league in revenue. Houston is a huge market and with competent ownership it should be no problem for a team there to make money.

Never said team in Huston would lose money.

But the league is looking for owners who have money (starting price for a franchise is $500M).
And the league doesn't want the Atlanta situation to happen again (an owner giving up because they are tired of loosing money).

Everyone knows that the league franchise tag at $500M is bogus. Average team value is closer to $300M.

Now, pardon me if I am wrong, but you don't spend $500M on something if you don't think you can sell it for at least $501M in 10 years. Not unless you are Foley or unless you are sure you can make at least $50M annual profits.
 

aqib

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True, but that took years and I feel like the NHL would have avoided Winnipeg if Portland was open

BS Daly said several other cities wanted to bid but Winnipeg was the #1 choice of the league. Chipman and Thomson had been playing ball on the leagues terms for years to get into that position. There is a reason why they were one of four cities invited to make a presentation to the league years earlier and why they were the city that was 10 minutes away from purchasing the Coyotes.
 
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Melrose Munch

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BS Daly said several other cities wanted to bid but Winnipeg was the #1 choice of the league. Chipman and Thomson had been playing ball on the leagues terms for years to get into that position. There is a reason why they were one of four cities invited to make a presentation to the league years earlier and why they were the city that was 10 minutes away from purchasing the Coyotes.
Given Jacob's comments about Quebec and similar markets, I don't think the NHL was being 100 percent honest. If that was the case, they could have let Phoenix go to Winnipeg and saved Atlanta or moved them somewhere else
 

aqib

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Given Jacob's comments about Quebec and similar markets, I don't think the NHL was being 100 percent honest. If that was the case, they could have let Phoenix go to Winnipeg and saved Atlanta or moved them somewhere else

Bettman admitted that they wanted to save Arizona because it would make it impossible for them to get new arenas built if they ran out on cities that quickly. Remember the arena in Glendale was only 6 years old when the Coyotes went into bankruptcy and at the time they were trying to get new arenas for the Islanders, Oilers, and Red Wings.

Now getting back your original statement that Winnipeg wouldn't have gotten a team if Portland was open, what are you basing that on if anything? Daly breaks down exactly why Winnipeg was the favored choice right here: https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/sp...le582731/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&
 

gstommylee

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Bettman admitted that they wanted to save Arizona because it would make it impossible for them to get new arenas built if they ran out on cities that quickly. Remember the arena in Glendale was only 6 years old when the Coyotes went into bankruptcy and at the time they were trying to get new arenas for the Islanders, Oilers, and Red Wings.

Now getting back your original statement that Winnipeg wouldn't have gotten a team if Portland was open, what are you basing that on if anything? Daly breaks down exactly why Winnipeg was the favored choice right here: https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/sp...le582731/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

There wasn't really much of a group for portland at the time. They still don't have one today.
 

Melrose Munch

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There wasn't really much of a group for portland at the time. They still don't have one today.
Well it's not like Paul Allen was going to pay whatever the NHL wanted, and he's right not to so. 500 million for a team is ridiculous.
 

aqib

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Well it's not like Paul Allen was going to pay whatever the NHL wanted, and he's right not to so. 500 million for a team is ridiculous.

$500 million wasn't the price in 2011. The price back then was $170 million. I still want to know where you are getting your argument that Portland would have been ahead of Winnipeg. Do you have any source at all or is it just your own speculation?
 

Melrose Munch

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$500 million wasn't the price in 2011. The price back then was $170 million. I still want to know where you are getting your argument that Portland would have been ahead of Winnipeg. Do you have any source at all or is it just your own speculation?
Speculation and reading archives on here and google over the years. By all indications, at least to me and a few other posters, Allen wasn't interested then and he's might not be interested now at 500 million.
So @Fenway what makes you think that PK is having issues with selling the team? What has surfaced recently from the Greenberg binding agreement that has caused concern?
Other then the fact it's not closed?
 
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garbageteam

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Well, thankfully it's not as if Jacobs actually runs the entire NHL. Unfortunately he is a very strong influence. The fact Quebec is even in any sort of contention ("deferred" with plenty of positive comments from Daly & Bettman) aside from outright rejection is probably because some of the other owners are more receptive to the idea.
 

aqib

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Speculation and reading archives on here and google over the years. By all indications, at least to me and a few other posters, Allen wasn't interested then and he's might not be interested now at 500 million.

He indicated he was monitoring the situation when Glendale was debating the AMF and at that point the price had gone higher. There is nothing to indicate he wouldn't have been interested at $170 million. The fact is that Winnipeg was the #1 choice in 2011 and the league through both words and action (ASG wasn't given the ok to negotiate with buyers from any city other than Atlanta or Winnipeg) demonstrated that. You shouldn't post speculation that you made up as if it was fact.
 

Melrose Munch

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He indicated he was monitoring the situation when Glendale was debating the AMF and at that point the price had gone higher. There is nothing to indicate he wouldn't have been interested at $170 million. The fact is that Winnipeg was the #1 choice in 2011 and the league through both words and action (ASG wasn't given the ok to negotiate with buyers from any city other than Atlanta or Winnipeg) demonstrated that. You shouldn't post speculation that you made up as if it was fact.
Then why didn't he buy? If he was interested he would have bought them. You're then only here that actually think's Winnipeg was the number 1 choice eh? @Killion
What a hot take that sells of sports franchises takes time to complete.
Not this long. Rockets took weeks to close and frankly the Leafs sale took less time as well.
 

Mightygoose

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Then why didn't he buy? If he was interested he would have bought them. You're then only here that actually think's Winnipeg was the number 1 choice eh? @Killion

Not this long. Rockets took weeks to close and frankly the Leafs sale took less time as well.

With an announced crowd of 7892 tonight, hopefully Greenburg won't take too much longer closing this thing.



Cause if PK really is planning on raising the sale price soon as he indicated in the summer, this could be a really long process
 

aqib

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Then why didn't he buy? If he was interested he would have bought them. You're then only here that actually think's Winnipeg was the number 1 choice eh? @Killion

I am the only one who is using actual facts. Only one group was allowed to negotiate with ASG, that was Winnipeg. That's just a fact. Any talk that other cities were favored is just made up speculation. If other cities were ranked ahead of it than why was ONLY Winnipeg allowed to talk to ASG?
 

Killion

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Then why didn't he buy? If he was interested he would have bought them. You're then only here that actually think's Winnipeg was the number 1 choice eh? @Killion

As I recall.... there was a report from either a reporter from ESPN or one of the local Portland OR media outlets that informed... Paul Allen was interested in the Coyoytes, had been tracking the situation for some time, employs a number of executives who had formerly worked for NHL franchises & quite familiar with the teams & leagues operations, did an extensive amount of due diligence, were aware of the then pending new broadcast contracts (2013/14) however.... at $170M including rosy projections the numbers simply didnt pencil out or make sense for them.... Winnipeg however at no time balked at the price tag for the Coyotes, were running silent & deep as per NHL directives, on stand-bye check in hand, the Coyotes only saved in 2010 when the City of Glendale agreed to pay the $25M "insurance premium" to the NHL which bought them another year. Had Glendale not paid it, then ya, the Coyotes would have returned to Winnipeg in 2010 for 2010/11 season....

The next year, 2011, the NHL again demanded $25M from the COG who's City Council was unaware that Winnipeg was no longer a threat, TNSE in conjunction with the NHL re-directed in secret to Atlanta to negotiate a deal with ASG. TNSE had budgeted $170M for the Coyotes and Peter Thomson not willing to pay any more including the Relo Fee for Atlanta (or anyone else for that matter). With Bettman inserting himself into the negotiations between ASG & TNSE, he managed to get them down to $110M, with the additional $60M which TNSE had budgeted all-in being called a "Relocation Fee". That the NHL had actually "assigned a valuation to Winnipeg & its $170M" when in fact no valuation of anykind was ever done at all. That $170M the price TNSE (or anyone) wanting to buy the Coyotes would have to pay and no, no Relo Fee on top of it. So....

It leads one to question Bettman's judgement, to look at how he handled these situations & its not flattering. Why didnt he sell the Coyotes to Winnipeg for $170M & be made "whole" again, stopping the spin & insanity that continued to unravel in Glendale Az & which continues to this day? Why didnt he determine exactly how much it was that Paul Allen was prepared to pay for an NHL franchise which surely must have been in the $100M-$125M range, waived the Relo Fee altogether, arranged to sell him the Thrashers & BAM, theres your first of 2 US Pacific Northwest teams. Instead, he & Bill Daly lied to the City of Glendale, the fans & sponsors, carrying on with the charade, extorting $50M, enabling a shallow, vacuous group of Moon Shot Artists to get the Cities signature on a $225M +++ Arena Mgmnt Contract & Lease that blew up in their faces. And for what? The quick $60M in Relo Fee's they carved out of TNSE's purchase of the Thrashers. Thats what. A lousy $2M & change per team, like a 2nd or 3rd line Center's contract over one season. Whoop dee doo.

Anyhoo. Food for thought. But sure. If it had been Paul Allen & not Jim Balsillie... if Paul Allen had been willing to pay the full $170M for the Coyotes or had Gary Bettman gone for the double play in moving those two clubs as he should have...................................... and that being said, where was the League in 1996 & through the early 00's in Arizona when during that clubs formative years it desperately needed a steadying hand. If they had a clue, the very thought of the Coyotes leaving could have been, would have been & shoulda been laughable.... Ditto with the Thrashers. Clear to anyone checking out ownership a decade earlier & watching it devolve that serious serious storm clouds were on the horizon, better you get out in front of the situation early, chart a new course. But no, they believed the obvious lies of the greasy, slimy hydra headed reptiles who made up Atlanta Spirit Group, got played badly & guess what... checkmate. Lost the South Morons.
 
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DetroitRed

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I thought the NHL already basically said it would have to somehow add another team outside the eastern time zone before Quebec City could be revisited. So, I'm not surprised hear about interest in places like Houston and Seattle. However, to say they are not interested in Quebec City, where they know they can have a profitable team, is way too strong.
 

Melrose Munch

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With an announced crowd of 7892 tonight, hopefully Greenburg won't take too much longer closing this thing.



Cause if PK really is planning on raising the sale price soon as he indicated in the summer, this could be a really long process

Its a shame. PK is making this worse then it has to be. Greenberg might walk away. And then what?
I am the only one who is using actual facts. Only one group was allowed to negotiate with ASG, that was Winnipeg. That's just a fact. Any talk that other cities were favored is just made up speculation. If other cities were ranked ahead of it than why was ONLY Winnipeg allowed to talk to ASG?
As I recall.... there was a report from either a reporter from ESPN or one of the local Portland OR media outlets that informed... Paul Allen was interested in the Coyoytes, had been tracking the situation for some time, employs a number of executives who had formerly worked for NHL franchises & quite familiar with the teams & leagues operations, did an extensive amount of due diligence, were aware of the then pending new broadcast contracts (2013/14) however.... at $170M including rosy projections the numbers simply didnt pencil out or make sense for them.... Winnipeg however at no time balked at the price tag for the Coyotes, were running silent & deep as per NHL directives, on stand-bye check in hand, the Coyotes only saved in 2010 when the City of Glendale agreed to pay the $25M "insurance premium" to the NHL which bought them another year. Had Glendale not paid it, then ya, the Coyotes would have returned to Winnipeg in 2010 for 2010/11 season....

The next year, 2011, the NHL again demanded $25M from the COG who's City Council was unaware that Winnipeg was no longer a threat, TNSE in conjunction with the NHL re-directed in secret to Atlanta to negotiate a deal with ASG. TNSE had budgeted $170M for the Coyotes and Peter Thomson not willing to pay any more including the Relo Fee for Atlanta (or anyone else for that matter). With Bettman inserting himself into the negotiations between ASG & TNSE, he managed to get them down to $110M, with the additional $60M which TNSE had budgeted all-in being called a "Relocation Fee". That the NHL had actually "assigned a valuation to Winnipeg & its $170M" when in fact no valuation of anykind was ever done at all. That $170M the price TNSE (or anyone) wanting to buy the Coyotes would have to pay and no, no Relo Fee on top of it. So....

It leads one to question Bettman's judgement, to look at how he handled these situations & its not flattering. Why didnt he sell the Coyotes to Winnipeg for $170M & be made "whole" again, stopping the spin & insanity that continued to unravel in Glendale Az & which continues to this day? Why didnt he determine exactly how much it was that Paul Allen was prepared to pay for an NHL franchise which surely must have been in the $100M-$125M range, waived the Relo Fee altogether, arranged to sell him the Thrashers & BAM, theres your first of 2 US Pacific Northwest teams. Instead, he & Bill Daly lied to the City of Glendale, the fans & sponsors, carrying on with the charade, extorting $50M, enabling a shallow, vacuous group of Moon Shot Artists to get the Cities signature on a $225M +++ Arena Mgmnt Contract & Lease that blew up in their faces. And for what? The quick $60M in Relo Fee's they carved out of TNSE's purchase of the Thrashers. Thats what. A lousy $2M & change per team, like a 2nd or 3rd line Center's contract over one season. Whoop dee doo.

Anyhoo. Food for thought. But sure. If it had been Paul Allen & not Jim Balsillie... if Paul Allen had been willing to pay the full $170M for the Coyotes or had Gary Bettman gone for the double play in moving those two clubs as he should have...................................... and that being said, where was the League in 1996 & through the early 00's in Arizona when during that clubs formative years it desperately needed a steadying hand. If they had a clue, the very thought of the Coyotes leaving could have been, would have been & shoulda been laughable.... Ditto with the Thrashers. Clear to anyone checking out ownership a decade earlier & watching it devolve that serious serious storm clouds were on the horizon, better you get out in front of the situation early, chart a new course. But no, they believed the obvious lies of the greasy, slimy hydra headed reptiles who made up Atlanta Spirit Group, got played badly & guess what... checkmate. Lost the South Morons.
Well there you go aqib. The whole story in full.
 

aqib

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Its a shame. PK is making this worse then it has to be. Greenberg might walk away. And then what?


Well there you go aqib. The whole story in full.

Sorry but Killion is a wrong too. The Coyotes price was set at $170 million because that is what the NHL had put into it and Bettman has assured the owners they wouldn't be taking a loss and the sale agreement in bankruptcy court stipulated that any gains the NHL had made would go to the teams creditors. The only creditors who hadn't been made whole was Moyes who the NHL hated so it was pointless to charge more (Bettman can be vindictive hence why he charged such a high relo fee, he didn't want ASG to turn a profit for killing its franchise either).

Allen did indicate he was monitoring the situation and was ready to make a bid it says so here: http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/i...re_ready_to_buy_nhls_phoenix_coyotes_mov.html

and he was willing to go upto $200 million:

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/...n+interested+team+portland/8738683/story.html

Regarding who was at the front of the line, the roots for Winnipeg getting first crack were planted as far was as 07. The NHL invited 5 cities to make a pitch. Houston, KC, Vegas, Winnipeg, and Seattle: https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/we-missed-it-by-that-much-in-2010-124057719.html

Winnipeg is the only one that had an arena and ownership lined up in 2011 hence they were first in line.

So yes I am the only one here who believes that Winnipeg had maneuvered its way to being first in line, but I am also the only one who is providing actual evidence to back up what I am saying and not just pulling stuff out of thin air.
 
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Killion

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Sorry but Killion is a wrong too. The Coyotes price was set at $170 million because that is what the NHL had put into it and Bettman has assured the owners they wouldn't be taking a loss and the sale agreement in bankruptcy court stipulated that any gains the NHL had made would go to the teams creditors. The only creditors who hadn't been made whole was Moyes who the NHL hated so it was pointless to charge more (Bettman can be vindictive hence why he charged such a high relo fee, he didn't want ASG to turn a profit for killing its franchise either).

Allen did indicate he was monitoring the situation and was ready to make a bid it says so here: http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/i...re_ready_to_buy_nhls_phoenix_coyotes_mov.html

and he was willing to go upto $200 million:

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/...n+interested+team+portland/8738683/story.html

Subsequent to this article and that $200M figure the reasons given were that he didnt follow through because the numbers didnt pencil out, not at $200M, not at $170M.... Of course your quite correct that the NHL had by that time sunk app $170M into the Coyotes & yes of course, Bettman told the BOG's that this little adventure in fending off Balsillie & buying the club wouldnt cost them a dime.... So where am I "wrong" here?.... Additionally, according to Chipman of TNSE in interviews he gave post acquisition of the Thrashers, negotiations between ASG & the NHL were rancorous to say the least. Yes, TNSE had budgeted $170M all-in for the Coyotes, that was their stake/offer. So. Did Gary Bettman do them any favors in having been good boys, quietly & politely waited in line, provided a super soft & really the only landing spot available at that time & been beyond flexible about it? There was no "market valuation" done of Winnipeg. It wasnt "assessed a value of $170M" by the NHL. That price was set based on what the NHL had into the Coyotes. Why then after sending TNSE in secret to Georgia to buy an entirely different team under entirely different ownership & circumstances did Gary insist on receiving $170M in full after grinding ASG down to $110M? Why the Relo Fee at all? Still dinged them for $60M and if that wasnt bad enough, according to Chipman, Bettman was asking TNSE to pay even more, to pay a bigger Relo Fee, and David Thomson hearing about it goes right into orbit, threatening all manner of Hell including pulling out altogether, Bettman very wisely backing down... So...... Is it your opinion that Mr. Bettman, Bill Daly & the NHL have acquitted themselves brilliantly throughout these events aqib?
 
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Shawa666

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I am the only one who is using actual facts. Only one group was allowed to negotiate with ASG, that was Winnipeg. That's just a fact. Any talk that other cities were favored is just made up speculation. If other cities were ranked ahead of it than why was ONLY Winnipeg allowed to talk to ASG?
Did you forget "The Balkan"?:D
 

Melrose Munch

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Sorry but Killion is a wrong too. The Coyotes price was set at $170 million because that is what the NHL had put into it and Bettman has assured the owners they wouldn't be taking a loss and the sale agreement in bankruptcy court stipulated that any gains the NHL had made would go to the teams creditors. The only creditors who hadn't been made whole was Moyes who the NHL hated so it was pointless to charge more (Bettman can be vindictive hence why he charged such a high relo fee, he didn't want ASG to turn a profit for killing its franchise either).

Allen did indicate he was monitoring the situation and was ready to make a bid it says so here: http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/i...re_ready_to_buy_nhls_phoenix_coyotes_mov.html

and he was willing to go upto $200 million:

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/...n+interested+team+portland/8738683/story.html

Regarding who was at the front of the line, the roots for Winnipeg getting first crack were planted as far was as 07. The NHL invited 5 cities to make a pitch. Houston, KC, Vegas, Winnipeg, and Seattle: https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/we-missed-it-by-that-much-in-2010-124057719.html

Winnipeg is the only one that had an arena and ownership lined up in 2011 hence they were first in line.

So yes I am the only one here who believes that Winnipeg had maneuvered its way to being first in line, but I am also the only one who is providing actual evidence to back up what I am saying and not just pulling stuff out of thin air.
Subsequent to this article and that $200M figure the reasons given were that he didnt follow through because the numbers didnt pencil out, not at $200M, not at $170M.... Of course your quite correct that the NHL had by that time sunk app $170M into the Coyotes & yes of course, Bettman told the BOG's that this little adventure in fending off Balsillie & buying the club wouldnt cost them a dime.... So where am I "wrong" here?.... Additionally, according to Chipman of TNSE in interviews he gave post acquisition of the Thrashers, negotiations between ASG & the NHL were rancorous to say the least. Yes, TNSE had budgeted $170M all-in for the Coyotes, that was their stake/offer. So. Did Gary Bettman do them any favors in having been good boys, quietly & politely waited in line, provided a super soft & really the only landing spot available at that time & been beyond flexible about it? There was no "market valuation" done of Winnipeg. It wasnt "assessed a value of $170M" by the NHL. That price was set based on what the NHL had into the Coyotes. Why then after sending TNSE in secret to Georgia to buy an entirely different team under entirely different ownership & circumstances did Gary insist on receiving $170M in full after grinding ASG down to $110M? Why the Relo Fee at all? Still dinged them for $60M and if that wasnt bad enough, according to Chipman, Bettman was asking TNSE to pay even more, to pay a bigger Relo Fee, and David Thomson hearing about it goes right into orbit, threatening all manner of Hell including pulling out altogether, Bettman very wisely backing down... So...... Is it your opinion that Mr. Bettman, Bill Daly & the NHL have acquitted themselves brilliantly throughout these events aqib?
So it seems like TNSE was prepared to take any team, but they were the first choice for the coyotes, imo at least. I still am not convinced Bettman and Jacobs were totally happy to go back to Winnipeg. And with the stunts the players are doing with the NMC/NTCs, their fears had some truth.
 

aqib

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Subsequent to this article and that $200M figure the reasons given were that he didnt follow through because the numbers didnt pencil out, not at $200M, not at $170M.... Of course your quite correct that the NHL had by that time sunk app $170M into the Coyotes & yes of course, Bettman told the BOG's that this little adventure in fending off Balsillie & buying the club wouldnt cost them a dime.... So where am I "wrong" here?.... Additionally, according to Chipman of TNSE in interviews he gave post acquisition of the Thrashers, negotiations between ASG & the NHL were rancorous to say the least. Yes, TNSE had budgeted $170M all-in for the Coyotes, that was their stake/offer. So. Did Gary Bettman do them any favors in having been good boys, quietly & politely waited in line, provided a super soft & really the only landing spot available at that time & been beyond flexible about it? There was no "market valuation" done of Winnipeg. It wasnt "assessed a value of $170M" by the NHL. That price was set based on what the NHL had into the Coyotes. Why then after sending TNSE in secret to Georgia to buy an entirely different team under entirely different ownership & circumstances did Gary insist on receiving $170M in full after grinding ASG down to $110M? Why the Relo Fee at all? Still dinged them for $60M and if that wasnt bad enough, according to Chipman, Bettman was asking TNSE to pay even more, to pay a bigger Relo Fee, and David Thomson hearing about it goes right into orbit, threatening all manner of Hell including pulling out altogether, Bettman very wisely backing down... So...... Is it your opinion that Mr. Bettman, Bill Daly & the NHL have acquitted themselves brilliantly throughout these events aqib?

The $60 million relo fee, according to Bettman was there to give Atlanta groups a chance. No one was going to pay $170 million to keep the team in Atlanta, but theoretically a bid of $125 million would have given ASG the incentive to take a local bid since they would be clearing more that way. My theory (and this is just a theory so I won't present it as fact) is that he didn't want ASG to turn a profit on the deal. ASG got the Thrashers as a throw-in when AOL was shedding the sports teams they inherited when then they bought Time Warner. They claimed to have lost a little over $100 million on the Thrashers while owning them, had they been able to get the full $170 million they would have turned a profit while having not only destroyed the market but having salted the earth so hockey could never grow there again.

I'm wondering where you're getting the info that Allen decided it didn't pencil out at $170 million? He was willing to bid $200 million but the Coyotes never actually came up for bid for a relo.

As for your last question, no the NHL did not acquit itself well at all. I was disputing Melrose's ASSERTION that Winnipeg was the fallback after Portland when all the EVIDENCE shows that was not even remotely accurate.
 

Melrose Munch

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The $60 million relo fee, according to Bettman was there to give Atlanta groups a chance. No one was going to pay $170 million to keep the team in Atlanta, but theoretically a bid of $125 million would have given ASG the incentive to take a local bid since they would be clearing more that way. My theory (and this is just a theory so I won't present it as fact) is that he didn't want ASG to turn a profit on the deal. ASG got the Thrashers as a throw-in when AOL was shedding the sports teams they inherited when then they bought Time Warner. They claimed to have lost a little over $100 million on the Thrashers while owning them, had they been able to get the full $170 million they would have turned a profit while having not only destroyed the market but having salted the earth so hockey could never grow there again.

I'm wondering where you're getting the info that Allen decided it didn't pencil out at $170 million? He was willing to bid $200 million but the Coyotes never actually came up for bid for a relo.

As for your last question, no the NHL did not acquit itself well at all. I was disputing Melrose's ASSERTION that Winnipeg was the fallback after Portland when all the EVIDENCE shows that was not even remotely accurate.
My assertion was that Winnipeg wasn't the first choice. All you have shown so far is that Winnipeg was the final choice.
 

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