Is it time to blow the team up and rebuild?

[V13]

How did Gainey's retool not work, the team made the ECF twice in the 5 years after that UFA rebuild. He built a contending team that was a couple pieces away using mostly UFAs. In fact the whole premise behind Bergevin being bad is based on the fact that we had a good team with most of the key pieces and just needed that little extra scoring forward to put us over the top.

You ca see it that way i guess but still...no SCF and no cup. And most of the guys he signed are gone. Gomez was a failure and we gave up McDonagh for him , Gionta was OK at first but then started going dowhill and Cammalleri was traded by PG. Should have rebuild instead that was the perfect time for it but i understand with the 100th anniversary they just couldn't. We may have seen better long term benefits had they truly rebuild.

So yeah it wasn't a total failure but i certainly wouldn't consider it a success either. It was the definition of a short term patchwork

 

[Sorinth]

Brayden Schenn, Jack Johnson, etc. Were some top picks they had or acquired and used to get pieces of their cup winning roster.

Who knows where they draft in the Kopitar year if the season was played.

It takes accumulating picks, developing and hitting on those picks, and drafting high and hitting high picks.

It does take luck, let's not lie about this. But you're more likely to be lucky when you're drafting high than if you are drafting in the middle of the first round every year.

Johnson was acquired without using a top pick/prospect.

So really the only tank moves that LA used to build their roster was one high pick in Doughty, and traded a top-5 pick in Schenn. And that trade is much like us trading McDonagh for Gomez.

If all you need to tank is to make the right pick once then going full on tanking where you sell everything isn't necessary. It's like claiming we tanked in 2011-2012, it's not true. We were trying to compete, had a bad year and as a result sold off some vet assets. That to me is just retooling not tanking.

 

[Habs]

Put Roy in a management role, we would never have to endure soft teams again.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Put Roy in a management role, we would never have to endure soft teams again.

Or good teams.

Also, its not like Bergevin hasn't tried to beef the team up. He's wasted picks and trades trying to do that. Without speed, its a waste.

 

[Habs]

Or good teams.

Also, its not like Bergevin hasn't tried to beef the team up. He's wasted picks and trades trying to do that. Without speed, its a waste.

I'd give Roy a job in management , not at the GM right now, but in the pipeline. Suggesting Roy could never build a good team over time is silly, our head putz has even done this from time to time.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I'd give Roy a job in management , not at the GM right now, but in the pipeline. Suggesting Roy could never build a good team over time is silly, our head putz has even done this from time to time.

I'm not sure why comparing him to Bergevin is an argument, but Roy has always wanted a significant degree of control from a hockey ops job. You can't just plug him into the pipeline.

Roy doesn't have experience or a great track record. Why is he an appealing management choice?

 

[Kriss E]

I'd give Roy a job in management , not at the GM right now, but in the pipeline. Suggesting Roy could never build a good team over time is silly, our head putz has even done this from time to time.

Our head puts benefited from having two compliance buyouts and some emerging talents.
Roy wouldn't have that luxury coming in.

Whoever comes in is going to be in a worse position than Bergevin was when he took over.
That said, whoever is chosen should open up this yardsale with a big sign that says "everything must go!".

 

[SirClintonPortis]

Put Roy in a management role, we would never have to endure soft teams again.

This current group is also going for a tough image too, you know. Never mind that Bergy was going HARD for Lucic but Lucic wanted to be with McDavid.

 

[Habs]

Our head puts benefited from having two compliance buyouts and some emerging talents.
Roy wouldn't have that luxury coming in.

True.

I'm not sure why comparing him to Bergevin is an argument, but Roy has always wanted a significant degree of control from a hockey ops job. You can't just plug him into the pipeline.

Roy doesn't have experience or a great track record. Why is he an appealing management choice?

Ownership says the GM, coach etc have to be french.. narrows it down quite a bit. I think Patrick has changed since his days in Colorado. Roy's a winner, I like winners. GM's get in trouble with their loyalty, MB has always been too loyal, and it has killed this team.

 

[icerocket]

This current group is also going for a tough image too, you know. Never mind that Bergy was going HARD for Lucic but Lucic wanted to be with McDavid.

Tough without the skill. Pretty much a recipe for disaster.

 

[SirClintonPortis]

Tough without the skill. Pretty much a recipe for disaster.

Tough guys with skill are tough to find, and it would not be wise to chase after every one of those types at the expense of more talented guys with a little less grit.

 

[Captain Mountain]

True.


Ownership says the GM, coach etc have to be french.. narrows it down quite a bit. I think Patrick has changed since his days in Colorado. Roy's a winner, I like winners. GM's get in trouble with their loyalty, MB has always been too loyal, and it has killed this team.

GMs also get in trouble with temper, Bergevin was just as much of a "winner" as Roy (in management) and there are other bilingual options.

Being a "winner" isn't a qualification, and liking a winner is emotional, not practical.

 

[rafalesque]

Price is the solution to this team problems.... He needs to be traded to balance offense/defense. end of discussion

 

[rafalesque]

True.


Ownership says the GM, coach etc have to be french.. narrows it down quite a bit. I think Patrick has changed since his days in Colorado. Roy's a winner, I like winners. GM's get in trouble with their loyalty, MB has always been too loyal, and it has killed this team.

Roy is a winner for sure. Look what he made with full control on the Rempart in Quebec city. give him the tools and he will build a winning team

 

[groovejuice]

True.


Ownership says the GM, coach etc have to be french.. narrows it down quite a bit. I think Patrick has changed since his days in Colorado. Roy's a winner, I like winners. GM's get in trouble with their loyalty, MB has always been too loyal, and it has killed this team.

Loyalty on its own isn't a bad quality. It's when it's extended to protect the incompetent and unproductive that it becomes a curse.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Roy is a winner for sure. Look what he made with full control on the Rempart in Quebec city. give him the tools and he will build a winning team

Unless they are similar to the tools that got him success in the QMJHL (they don't translate) its not the same thing.

He's anti-analytics and plays favourites. How is that different than what Montreal has now, besides less experience?

 

[Sorinth]

You ca see it that way i guess but still...no SCF and no cup. And most of the guys he signed are gone. Gomez was a failure and we gave up McDonagh for him , Gionta was OK at first but then started going dowhill and Cammalleri was traded by PG. Should have rebuild instead that was the perfect time for it but i understand with the 100th anniversary they just couldn't. We may have seen better long term benefits had they truly rebuild.

So yeah it wasn't a total failure but i certainly wouldn't consider it a success either. It was the definition of a short term patchwork

Well it's been what 8 years later, obviously all those guys are gone now. That's not a negative, that's perfectly normal.

I know people have different opinions on the matter, but to me once the Gally's came on board and up until the Subban trade we were legit contenders. Before that it was hard to say due to Markov being injured all the time. With Markov injured we were a bubble team, with him healthy it could be argued we were contenders. But regardless I'm not sure a SC is the only measure of success. Washington has never made the SCF, yet they are considered contenders pretty much every year. Are they considered a success or a failure?


As for rebuilding it might have worked but it might not have. Personally I think that first ECF run had a huge impact on both Price and Subban. Would they have reached their full potential or would they have ended up as very good but not great players?

 

[Andrei79]

Our head puts benefited from having two compliance buyouts and some emerging talents.
Roy wouldn't have that luxury coming in.

Whoever comes in is going to be in a worse position than Bergevin was when he took over.
That said, whoever is chosen should open up this yardsale with a big sign that says "everything must go!".

I think from all the years I've been watching, this might be the best year for a complete rebuild.

Anyone can see this team is so poorly built that any turnaround is going to be hard, hard work, if even possible. Yet, we still have so many overvalued assets. The kind of return we could get for guys like Weber, Price, Pacioretty and heck, even Plekanec, Gallagher, on top of a few top picks for 1-3 years would mean we probably don't stay in the basement for that long.

One thing I'm hoping for with the next GM is a guy with Lamoriello's wisdom.

I get some players are ready at 18, but I'd be curious how many of them are 1 or 2nd OA picks, and how many 3rd to 10th OAs ended up with a more favorable trajectory developping and even playing in the AHL, especially in a market like Montreal. That's what should've happened with Galchenyuk. If you're not a contender, an 18 yo Galchenyuk isn't going to make you one. If you are, you likely don't need one to begin with. Send them to Europe, like Matthews did, if you feel he's got nothing to learn in juniors.

 

[rafalesque]

Unless they are similar to the tools that got him success in the QMJHL (they don't translate) its not the same thing.

He's anti-analytics and plays favourites. How is that different than what Montreal has now, besides less experience?

That is crap with the analytics! Talk to Dale Tallon in Florida. he has done a better job without the over studied data. They know what is required to win and uses those to make winner. Remember Roy's first year in Colorado?

your argument is the same as most on this board about Galchy. They all want Galchy on the first line just has not played to earn it. Is he talented, yes! does he work his #$% off no!
if you have a guy to go to = then use him to produce. simple

 

[Captain Mountain]

That is crap with the analytics! Talk to Dale Tallon in Florida. he has done a better job without the over studied data. They know what is required to win and uses those to make winner. Remember Roy's first year in Colorado?

your argument is the same as most on this board about Galchy. They all want Galchy on the first line just has not played to earn it. Is he talented, yes! does he work his #$% off no!

I absolutely love it when people provide incredibly incomplete anectodal evidence to dispute the use of anayltics.

Florida was definitely undone by the nerds, and not by injuries. And Tallon is definitely not using the analytic guys that are still there.

And I definitely remember Roy's first year, when the team road insane goaltending and completely unsustainable percentages and then predictably flamed out when they doubled down on their "process".

Also, what the hell has this got to do with Chucky (who, BTW, is on the 1st line)?

 

[Roke]

do you know why the toronto rebuild went so well so fast?....It's called GOOD MANAGEMENT AND COACHING

Yeah, we're in the Burke-Nonis regime stage of things until Bergevin gets fired.

 

[OnceWasNot]

That is crap with the analytics! Talk to Dale Tallon in Florida. he has done a better job without the over studied data.

This is probably the exact attitude MB has toward analytics and it explains why the Habs are being left behind by many other organizations.

 

[rafalesque]

This is probably the exact attitude MB has toward analytics and it explains why the Habs are being left behind by many other organizations.

Really.... left being. how many times have we finished in 1st place the last 5 years. Analytics for sure..hahahaha

 

[rafalesque]

I absolutely love it when people provide incredibly incomplete anectodal evidence to dispute the use of anayltics.

Florida was definitely undone by the nerds, and not by injuries. And Tallon is definitely not using the analytic guys that are still there.

And I definitely remember Roy's first year, when the team road insane goaltending and completely unsustainable percentages and then predictably flamed out when they doubled down on their "process".

Also, what the hell has this got to do with Chucky (who, BTW, is on the 1st line)?

Just provide the contrary to your argument. perhaps you should look at the movie " the curve ball" some go with guts and experience, not stats alone.
Analytics is like a very talented russian player with no heart = no championship . Bam!

 

[OnceWasNot]

Really.... left being. how many times have we finished in 1st place the last 5 years. Analytics for sure..hahahaha

In the league? Zero. In the conference? Zero. Same as the number of playoff series we've won in the last 3 years.

I guess beating up on bottom feeders and winning the weakest division in the NHL 60% of the time is the new measure of success for the Montreal Canadiens.