Is it time to blow the team up and rebuild?

[Captain Mountain]

It’s not semantics. Tanking is purposely icing a terrible team so you get a high draft pick. You don’t tank for the 11th pick. They were just a mediocre team for a while. But they were never the worst team in the league other than the year they got Doughty obviously. But it was never to the level of the Pens/Hawks/Oilers.

Mediocre is more being middling than getting the 4th OA in 2007, 2nd OA in 2008 and 5th OA in 2009. LA was mediocre prior to those years though.

 

[G0bias]

Do you honestly remember the Kings being an embarrassment on the level of the Pens/Hawks/Oilers? That to me is tanking.

Like the Habs. One awful year, got the 3rd pick, but they weren’t tanking.

Wrong. They were 3rd worst in 06-7. Tied for last in 07-08. And 5th in 08-09.

Three consecutive years of top 5 picks. If that's not tanking I don't know what is.

 

[V13]

Exactly. I find it delusional to think that you can do a "proper" rebuild and end up like the Pens, Oilers, or Leafs just like that.

You won't end up like these teams just like that but it's still the proper way to rebuild when you have an aging and declining roster and an empty prospect pool. Retooling via UFA doesn't really work in the cap era (as Gainey did in 2009)

Tank for minimum 3 years and it's normally the start of a turnaround , especially if you draft in the top 3 each of those years.

 

[Sorinth]

Semantics. The goal of a rebuild is to get as many high picks as possible. Kopitar was the result of a high pick, tanking or not.

Just like Carey was the result of a high pick. Unless another lockout and league-wide lottery is happening in the near future, there's no other way of getting those without giving up a ton of assets.

Is 11th overall really considered a high pick you have to tank for? Playoff bubble teams draft around there all the time.

I mean are we also including Bernier, Tukonen, Brown as high picks that LA tanked to get? No they were picks that a playoff bubble team gets. The only reason people want to include Kopitar is because of what he became.

Did we tank for McDonagh? Or were we a bubble team that missed the playoffs.

LA had 3 high picks, only one of whom actually panned out.

 

[Sorinth]

You won't end up like these teams just like that but it's still the proper way to rebuild when you have an aging and declining roster and an empty prospect pool. Retooling via UFA doesn't really work in the cap era (as Gainey did in 2009)

Tank for minimum 3 years and it's normally the start of a turnaround , especially if you draft in the top 3 each of those years.

How did Gainey's retool not work, the team made the ECF twice in the 5 years after that UFA rebuild. He built a contending team that was a couple pieces away using mostly UFAs. In fact the whole premise behind Bergevin being bad is based on the fact that we had a good team with most of the key pieces and just needed that little extra scoring forward to put us over the top.

 

[G0bias]

Is 11th overall really considered a high pick you have to tank for? Playoff bubble teams draft around there all the time.

I mean are we also including Bernier, Tukonen, Brown as high picks that LA tanked to get? No they were picks that a playoff bubble team gets. The only reason people want to include Kopitar is because of what he became.

Did we tank for McDonagh? Or were we a bubble team that missed the playoffs.

LA had 3 high picks, only one of whom actually panned out.

Even excluding Kopitar - depends on your definition of a high pick I suppose, top 10 picks are usually considered high picks, he was 11th- the Kings tanked just like the other cup winners before and after them and had the opportunity to draft top 5 for three consecutive years regardless.

Like someone else pointed out, a rebuild doesn't guarantee you a Cup but you won't win one without one.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Do you see Beaulieu being worse than Benn this season defensively?? At least Nate would be putting up some offence.

Wash.

Beaulieu is not the difference between this team and a cup contender. Also the habs got a 3rd round pick for Beau and they would have never received anything for Benn.

 

[Sorinth]

Even excluding Kopitar - depends on your definition of a high pick I suppose, top 10 picks are usually considered high picks, he was 11th- the Kings tanked just like the other cup winners before and after them and had the opportunity to draft top 5 for three consecutive years regardless.

Like someone else pointed out, a rebuild doesn't guarantee you a Cup but you won't win one without one.

So if top-10 picks are considered high picks, then Kopitar isn't a high pick.

The problem with looking just at picks is that you can make it seem like every team tanked to get where they were. If we had won the cup under Bergevin people would have pointed out that we had two top-5 picks. Does that mean we would be an example of a team that tanked to win?

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Outside of Lehkonen, Drouin and Mete, I'm not particularly fond of any of the players in place. I'd be down for a rebuild. Hell I wanted a rebuild years ago.

 

[G0bias]

So if top-10 picks are considered high picks, then Kopitar isn't a high pick.

The problem with looking just at picks is that you can make it seem like every team tanked to get where they were. If we had won the cup under Bergevin people would have pointed out that we had two top-5 picks. Does that mean we would be an example of a team that tanked to win?

The point stands whether Kopitar was a high pick or not. It is rather irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

They tanked from 06 to 09 which some thought they didn't.

 

[Habs100]

I don't even know if we need to blow this thing up to get the first overall pick and rebuild. I think we may have the worst roster in the league: no offense and a slow defense.

 

[Omar]

The Pens are perennial Stanley Cup contenders. They challenge every year. And they’re looking for another center. If anyone thinks this Habs team is just slumping and is actually a contender when we learn Julien’s system, Price gets back to normal, etc. is in La La Land. There’s no way this team is a regular challenger for the Cup. We have the worst center depth in the league. The team is going nowhere and fast.

We have a good core- Price, Pacioretty, Weber, Mete, Drouin, Galchenyuk, Alzner and secondary pieces in Hudon, Lekhonen, Shaw, Gallagher, Petry. We need to improve center ice. Package Pacioretty (who is in his second last year) with anyone not Price, Weber, Mete and Drouin and get that center. Drouin can shift to wing. Start from there.

We have a good group of top five picks- Price, Alzner, Drouin and Galchenyuk. All is not lost. But bold moves are required to fix the rest.

I’m also okay just leaving it as it is and drafting high. Bergevin will lose his job but he deserves it. He hasn’t done anything major to improve the team.

 

[SirClintonPortis]

You won't end up like these teams just like that but it's still the proper way to rebuild when you have an aging and declining roster and an empty prospect pool. Retooling via UFA doesn't really work in the cap era (as Gainey did in 2009)

Tank for minimum 3 years and it's normally the start of a turnaround , especially if you draft in the top 3 each of those years.

Only the Oliers failed to "rebuild" within a three year span by firesaling present assets for futures because their FO were idiotic dinosaurs similar to Bergevin.

The Capitals tanked and it was a very successful one. McPhee and their pro scouting wasn't good enough to put them over the top, but they certainly had first world problems in DC for the past 10 years.

It takes only 3-4 years for a committed rebuild to reinvigorate playoff-worthy hockey but Cup-winning hockey requires solid scouting on all levels and absolute ruthlessness.

Generally speaking, a blow up and rebuild while accumulating future assets on all levels will almost always will end in success.

 

[habergeon]

What if this is actually Bergevin's master plan?

Tank it this year, get some young studs in the 2018 draft, sign Taveras and one of the top young UFA D men and do a min rebuild on the fly in year 1 of Carey's contract.

YEAH..RIGHT.

I dont know how anyone can look at this roster, compared to last years, and think we are better.

Totally delusional.

We are 5 years into Bergevins "plan" when he inherited what he called "a good base". We were 15th in the league.

We are going backwards.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Is 11th overall really considered a high pick you have to tank for? Playoff bubble teams draft around there all the time.

I mean are we also including Bernier, Tukonen, Brown as high picks that LA tanked to get? No they were picks that a playoff bubble team gets. The only reason people want to include Kopitar is because of what he became.

Did we tank for McDonagh? Or were we a bubble team that missed the playoffs.

LA had 3 high picks, only one of whom actually panned out.

Brayden Schenn, Jack Johnson, etc. Were some top picks they had or acquired and used to get pieces of their cup winning roster.

Who knows where they draft in the Kopitar year if the season was played.

It takes accumulating picks, developing and hitting on those picks, and drafting high and hitting high picks.

It does take luck, let's not lie about this. But you're more likely to be lucky when you're drafting high than if you are drafting in the middle of the first round every year.

 

[Roke]

I think the Leafs showed the proper way to go about doing a rebuild whereas Edmonton just got lucky getting McDavid to turn things around when all their top picks couldn't do it alone. You don't want to gut your team like the pre-Hall Oilers did to tank because you leave way too many holes to fill.

The Leafs didn't burn everything to the ground, they beefed up their scouting system and AHL staff, acquired young assets whenever possible, traded a big-contract guy in Kessel who probably wasn't going to be a big part of the team on the other side of the rebuild, and kept their early-20s talent like Kadri and Kadri to play tougher roles on the other end of things.

The year Toronto won the draft lottery was pretty much the perfect way to tank. The team had good structure but they were unfortunate in that they couldn't finish (probably a top-end talent issue), they had a lot of bad depth players which helps, and they got some absolutely terrible goaltending from Bernier & Sparks and that's the key. If you make your whole team terrible you have to plug a lot of holes, if get awful goaltending you only need to go out and find a goalie to fix things. Good depth players are easy to find on the free agent market, decent goalies aren't too hard to find if you don't wed yourself to a bad one and stick with him.

The Habs have the perfect tanking goalie in the system in Zach Fucale. He won in junior, has Team Canada pedigree,and was a fairly high draft pick for a goalie so playing him is somewhat excusable but he's awful. If the Habs had got an .898sv% from their goalies last year (what Fucale put up in the ECHL) would have dropped the Habs from 8th-best in the league in goal differential to 7th-worst without making any other changes to the roster. That's well on your way to having a good chance in the lottery.

 

[icerocket]

Don't care how you spin things... Facts are this: We were a fringe bubble playoff team before Bergevin and we were a legit top 10 NHL team that struggled in the playoffs after Bergevin. This year, we have fell off a cliff so far.

I don't agree our future is destroyed with bad contracts. None of these contracts affects our future prospects and how we can re-build. If we re-build, the only two contracts we still have after 5 years is Price and Weber and these guys would be traded before that point.

I don't like exaggeration. Sorry

You are the only one defending MB constantly.

Fact: Habs only came close to getting to the SC Finals ONCE and have been smoked out of the playoffs every other time.

 

[Pickles]

Outside of Lehkonen, Drouin and Mete, I'm not particularly fond of any of the players in place. I'd be down for a rebuild. Hell I wanted a rebuild years ago.

I really love the Gally's as well but at this point I think they're both damaged goods.

 

[David Suzuki]

I really love the Gally's as well but at this point I think they're both damaged goods.

if you can get decent value for them then move them IMO. I love Gallagher but he's not getting any younger.

 

[mariolemieux66]

if you can get decent value for them then move them IMO. I love Gallagher but he's not getting any younger.

There isn't enough talent and skills on the Habs for Gallagher to perform.

 

[David Suzuki]

There isn't enough talent and skills on the Habs for Gallagher to perform.

this might be a fair point. Maybe we over did the effect of his injuries. He was good when he had skilled players around him now he's stuck in a grinder type of role.

 

[mariolemieux66]

this might be a fair point. Maybe we over did the effect of his injuries. He was good when he had skilled players around him now he's stuck in a grinder type of role.

Its now that we realize how much offense Subban, Markov and Radulov brought to the team. And then you add that Plekanec was good, but not anymore. Pacioretty is not interested. Galchenyuk is on the 4th line and you get what you have now.

 

[WeThreeKings]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Clean house on all fronts.

Hire a respected President of Hockey Operations, someone who has been with a successful franchise and has been a pivotal part of it. This should be someone with a lot of experience.

Bring in a cutting edge GM, I don't care if they are a rookie, if they are french, english or swedish. They have to be cutting edge, valuing skill, speed, puck skills and transition above all else.

Do your due dilligence around ALL leagues for scouting talents. Look at programs in London of the OHL, Portland of the WHL, Halifax of the QMJHL. Look at Frolunda in Sweden. Do a cross-sectional study of the leagues and find out, not only who is identifying the talent that is dominating those leagues, but also who is responsible for bringing the most NHL players/impact players to the league. Then use your vast pool of resources, for which there is no cap, to bring them into the fold As scouts, as development coaches, as AHL coaches and NHL coaches.

 

[habsgirl5000]

I think the Leafs showed the proper way to go about doing a rebuild whereas Edmonton just got lucky getting McDavid to turn things around when all their top picks couldn't do it alone.

do you know why the toronto rebuild went so well so fast?....It's called GOOD MANAGEMENT AND COACHING

people can call toronto lucky all they want, its a bunch of BS.....success starts from the top and works its way down to the players,

we have crap at the top, thats why we have a crap team!

 

[badbrains]

Which core members of this team still have career upside and which have peaked and potentially are on the downside. Provides a good gauge of which way the team should be headed.

Price - Peaked. At his plateau or possible down trend. Need larger sample.

Weber - Peaked. Lowest ppg since his rookie season last year. Likely down trend.
Petry - Peaked. Probably down trending. Too inconsistent to tell.
Alzner - Peaked a few years ago. Down trending.
Mete - Lots of upside from what we've seen so far.
Rest of D - Depth or easily replaceable.

Drouin - Lots of room to improve. Up trending.
Lehkonen - Up trending. He'll get better.
Gallagher - Early career down trend due to injury.
Galchenyuk - Wildcard. Should be getting better, could go either way, though.
Pacioretty - Peaked. At his plateau, as sample size grows a down trend is emerging. (5g in his last 30)
Pleks - Down trending.
Rest of forwards - Depth or replaceable.

Out of the top 4 D, top 6 forwards and Price we've got 4 of 11 who have career upside and Galchenyuk who can go either way, imo. The rest have peaked or are on the downside of their careers.

If this team isn't a contender as we sit today it needs to be blown up. If the majority of the roster will not improve and we're not contending now it's not going to happen. We're not a piece or two away anymore. That ship sailed in the last 18 months with the loss of PK, Markov and Radulov.

Like it or not it's either rebuild time or another 20 years of playoff bubble teams.