Is Alex Ovechkin a top 10 player of all time?

[GreatGonzo]

That goes both ways and the same could be said of your own bias for Ovechkin/against Crosby. In all honesty, most every Crosby vs. Ovechkin thread is just bias-driven mudslinging. It's the same posters going back and forth with the same tired arguments, neither able to really look at things objectively (if that's even possible with hockey).

Anyway, yeah, OV is in my top 10. It's a big mess after the big 4 but he's certainly in the mix with Beliveau, Sid, Hull, Richard, Harvey, Hasek, Jagr and Harvey. That said, I have him closer to #10 than #5.

You only have a point IF I actually had a bias against Crosby, where as Daver defies all logic, moves the goal posts, while contradicting his own arguments constantly all for his love and loyalty to Crosby. One is clearly not like the other and your defending someone who is notorious for his Pro Crosby antics. He has an impulse to protect and fight for his legendary name.

At this point I would put him closer to the #10 spot as well. They could be different by the end of his career. I think the biggest “iffy” ones that Ovechkin is compared to his Hull and Richard. Many have them in the top 10, but not Ovechkin. I feel Ovechkin has a great argument for already surpassing those guys.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I'm not in any boat here regarding these two players, but this is too silly. Ovi was out-pointed and generally out-played by his own line-mate during the 2018 playoffs. Kuznetsov was tap-dancing all over the ice, zone-entering like a maniac, setting up guys left and right with free candy, scored the series-winning goal against the arch-rivals, and out-pointed Ovi in the finals against Vegas.

Ovi scored 3 more goals than Kuznetsov. If Edmonton won the Cup in 2006 against Carolina should Fernando Pisani have won the Smythe over Pronger? He (Pisani) did score 9 more goals than Pronger after all those playoffs.

You can’t make such statements and act like we are supposed to believe that you actually watched the games

He “tapped danced” around the competition. And was overall better? That’s a weird take. Kuzy was deserving, Ovechkin was just better. If you actually watched the games, you would have seen Kuzy get a bulk of his points in some rounds off of one game. Like game 4 against Vegas when he put up 4 assists. He finished with 1 goal and 6 assists, 4 of them coming in one game. Ovechkin finished with 3 goals and 5 points. Having more assists doesn’t mean someone was better, believe it or not. Even in the conference finals, Kuzy simply had more assists.

But I love how your putting down Ovechkins smythe, what’s your opinion about Crosby’s? Because you can’t have such a strong stance on one and be completely acceptable with the other...

 

[GreatGonzo]

Who had the primary assist on that goal?

There were three back-breaking late 3rd period or OT game winning goals in that series. The primary points went to:

Ovechkin + Kuznetsov
Ovechkin + Vrana
Ovechkin + Backstrom

See a pattern?

Unlike you, I watched all those games. Ovie was the Caps' best player.

Ovechkin can’t make players around him better, you stop that none sense!

 

[sr edler]

Having more assists doesn’t mean someone was better, believe it or not.

So Pisani in front of Pronger 06?

 

[Mackinnonen]

Yes I would say he is.

 

[sr edler]

But I love how your putting down Ovechkins smythe, what’s your opinion about Crosby’s?

I don't care about Crosby. He's the most boring hockey player ever. And the Ovechkin vs Crosby debate is the single-handedly most uninteresting thing ever. I much rather watch a whole season marathon of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic than debate these two players. Even if the debate wasn't hijacked by hopeless cheerleaders, it would still be completely insufferable. It's like all those endless ranking threads and discussions in the history section, I don't understand what the end goal is. I'm a researcher and chronicler first and foremost.

 

[wetcoast]

hes also a "Nashville" predator

I'm not catholic and understand this notion towards the "situation" but the current Pope seems like a decent guy.

 

[GreatGonzo]

So Pisani in front of Pronger 06?

Is it really that black and white in your mind? No need to be deliberately obtuse, I’m sure you have more sense than that.

I don't care about Crosby. He's the most boring hockey player ever. And the Ovechkin vs Crosby debate is the single-handedly most uninteresting thing ever. I much rather watch a whole season marathon of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic than debate these two players. Even if the debate wasn't hijacked by hopeless cheerleaders, it would still be completely insufferable. It's like all those endless ranking threads and discussions in the history section, I don't understand what the end goal is. I'm a researcher and chronicler first and foremost.

because you’re saying things with some sort of saltiness attached to them. In your mind, Kuzy was beyond better than Ovechkin and deserved the smythe based on your “expertise.” I mean your wrong on most levels so the way i see it, what exactly is your stance on Crosby’s since you feel Ovehckin wasn’t deserving. It’s a fair question considering what your basing it off of.

 

[Sun God Nika]

If you want to find out who's opinion is wrong on hockey, click on where it says 50 votes

 

[sr edler]

Is it really that black and white in your mind? No need to be deliberately obtuse, I’m sure you have more sense than that.

because you’re saying things with some sort of saltiness attached to them. In your mind, Kuzy was beyond better than Ovechkin and deserved the smythe based on your “expertise.” I mean your wrong on most levels so the way i see it, what exactly is your stance on Crosby’s since you feel Ovehckin wasn’t deserving. It’s a fair question considering what your basing it off of.

I'm not in any of these two players corner regarding this, and I've already said this: in this thread. It should still be in the thread unless a mod deleted it which they most likely did not do. Crosby's got 3 Cups but hasn't led any of those teams in scoring in the playoffs, which probably goes to show he had some relatively strong help at least. He wasn't Bure on the 99–00 Panthers or Iginla on the 04 Flames or Mats Sundin on the Leafs regarding teammates offensively. Yes, I am wrong the way you see it, I understand that, and you are wrong the way I see it, that's often the nature of a discussion board.

Black and white? It's you who made a blanket statement regarding goals and assists, not me. I didn't say more assists automatically makes you a better player. You said if someone has more assists they can't be better (if the other guy's got more goals). I thought for myself "okay, does that make Simon Gagne and Milan Hejduk better than Forsberg because it sounds like a case made for that standpoint".

I didn't watch terribly a lot of those two Penguins runs because I didn't think it was entertaining enough. I already knew Pittsburgh was gonna win when the Predators were forced to play with that unreasonably deadly center punch of Järnkrok, Sissons and Freddy Gaudreau. I did watch more in 2018 and I think Kuznetsov brought an element to the Capitals they had missed before in skating and fluid zone-entering down the middle. It wasn't only him though, after Holtby and Eller bailed them out in game 3 against the CBJ in the 1st round, and after Ovechkin came back from his hangover from chasing 50 goals in the last game of the regular season, he (Ovechkin) had a strong and inspiring run. They also got nice contributions from Carlson, Wilson, Smith-Pelly, et cetera (even Bäckström). A strong and inspiring run a lot of players have though, and it's not a guarantee or a gimme for the individual prize, but I strongly suspected he (Ovechkin) would get the Smythe anyways because I obviously realized how strong the general obsession and narrative was/is surrounding these two players.

 

[sr edler]

@GreatGonzo Regarding Ovechkin as a top 10 player of all time, I think CTP covered it relatively well in his short summary in post #16 in this thread regarding distribution of career assists (had a stretch where he didn't crack 30 assists in 4 years, even semi-washed up post-devastating-knee-injury Pavel Bure on the most horrendous Panthers team ever in the history of history, where Marcus Nilson was a core player offensively speaking, did crack 30 assists), PP reliance (led the league in ES goals once in 10 years), et cetera.

Ovechkin also doesn't have any instances of impressive international play in a best-on-best setting, despite very many tries and opportunities. I think his game's simply cut better for the NHL game. If Ovechkin had prolonged his 2007–2010 peak with 2 more years, yeah then I guess one could probably be able to overlook what he became later.

 

[tony d]

Not yet but he's firmly in my top 20. I think he's very close to being the best left winger ever as well.

 

[GreatGonzo]

@GreatGonzo Regarding Ovechkin as a top 10 player of all time, I think CTP covered it relatively well in his short summary in post #16 in this thread regarding distribution of career assists (had a stretch where he didn't crack 30 assists in 4 years, even semi-washed up post-devastating-knee-injury Pavel Bure on the most horrendous Panthers team ever in the history of history, where Marcus Nilson was a core player offensively speaking, did crack 30 assists), PP reliance (led the league in ES goals once in 10 years), et cetera.

Ovechkin also doesn't have any instances of impressive international play in a best-on-best setting, despite very many tries and opportunities. I think his game's simply cut better for the NHL game. If Ovechkin had prolonged his 2007–2010 peak with 2 more years, yeah then I guess one could probably be able to overlook what he became later.

Again, that’s if your suddenly starting a standard where he needs a certain amount of assists to meet your weird criteria. Again, Nevermind that he lead the league in goals most of those years, Nevermind the amount of 50 goals seasons within those years, Nevermind that he was a Hart and Lindsay nominee one of those years....nope, all that gets buried under the idea that his assists totals lack credibility.

Bure also never had the consistency, peak, dominance, or career Ovechkin has had. So maybe leave that comparison at home where it belongs?

Do you have any idea how amazing his peak was COMPARED to a top 10 list you can put together? I don’t understand your logic. If he had kept that dominance up? His 3 year peak is arguably among the best ALL TIME. His 2008-13 span alone, he sits 1st in goals, points, ES points, and only 13th in assists with 3 Harts(4x Finalists), 3 Lindsays(4x Finalists), 1 Art Ross(finishing 2,2,3, and 7 other years), 3 Rockets, 4x First Team AS and 1x Second....

you continue setting these standards that his peak wasn’t “long enough.” Then provide me a list of 10 players with better peaks than that, would love to see it.

I'm not in any of these two players corner regarding this, and I've already said this: in this thread. It should still be in the thread unless a mod deleted it which they most likely did not do. Crosby's got 3 Cups but hasn't led any of those teams in scoring in the playoffs, which probably goes to show he had some relatively strong help at least. He wasn't Bure on the 99–00 Panthers or Iginla on the 04 Flames or Mats Sundin on the Leafs regarding teammates offensively. Yes, I am wrong the way you see it, I understand that, and you are wrong the way I see it, that's often the nature of a discussion board.

Black and white? It's you who made a blanket statement regarding goals and assists, not me. I didn't say more assists automatically makes you a better player. You said if someone has more assists they can't be better (if the other guy's got more goals). I thought for myself "okay, does that make Simon Gagne and Milan Hejduk better than Forsberg because it sounds like a case made for that standpoint".

I didn't watch terribly a lot of those two Penguins runs because I didn't think it was entertaining enough. I already knew Pittsburgh was gonna win when the Predators were forced to play with that unreasonably deadly center punch of Järnkrok, Sissons and Freddy Gaudreau. I did watch more in 2018 and I think Kuznetsov brought an element to the Capitals they had missed before in skating and fluid zone-entering down the middle. It wasn't only him though, after Holtby and Eller bailed them out in game 3 against the CBJ in the 1st round, and after Ovechkin came back from his hangover from chasing 50 goals in the last game of the regular season, he (Ovechkin) had a strong and inspiring run. They also got nice contributions from Carlson, Wilson, Smith-Pelly, et cetera (even Bäckström). A strong and inspiring run a lot of players have though, and it's not a guarantee or a gimme for the individual prize, but I strongly suspected he (Ovechkin) would get the Smythe anyways because I obviously realized how strong the general obsession and narrative was/is surrounding these two players.

You claimed that Kuzy was the rightful MVP and was much better than Ovechkin, you have yet to actually explain that. I think both were deserving. And that Ovechkin simply was more impactful....but that doesn’t mean Kuzy wasn’t as well.

Yes, that’s what it takes to win a cup, outside contributions. Hot take? I mean the one thing those Caps teams suffered from was other players not rising to the occasion, Kuzy is the perfect example of that, Backstrom early on as well. Ovechkins goal scoring was a big difference maker a majority of the post season, while Kuzy was obviously right there with him. Either way, Ovechkin deserved MVP.

 

[Varan]

Again, that’s if your suddenly starting a standard where he needs a certain amount of assists to meet your weird criteria. Again, Nevermind that he lead the league in goals most of those years, Nevermind the amount of 50 goals seasons within those years, Nevermind that he was a Hart and Lindsay nominee one of those years....nope, all that gets buried under the idea that his assists totals lack credibility.

Bure also never had the consistency, peak, dominance, or career Ovechkin has had. So maybe leave that comparison at home where it belongs?

Do you have any idea how amazing his peak was COMPARED to a top 10 list you can put together? I don’t understand your logic. If he had kept that dominance up? His 3 year peak is arguably among the best ALL TIME. His 2008-13 span alone, he sits 1st in goals, points, ES points, and only 13th in assists with 3 Harts(4x Finalists), 3 Lindsays(4x Finalists), 1 Art Ross(finishing 2,2,3, and 7 other years), 3 Rockets, 4x First Team AS and 1x Second....

you continue setting these standards that his peak wasn’t “long enough.” Then provide me a list of 10 players with better peaks than that, would love to see it.

You claimed that Kuzy was the rightful MVP and was much better than Ovechkin, you have yet to actually explain that. I think both were deserving. And that Ovechkin simply was more impactful....but that doesn’t mean Kuzy wasn’t as well.

Yes, that’s what it takes to win a cup, outside contributions. Hot take? I mean the one thing those Caps teams suffered from was other players not rising to the occasion, Kuzy is the perfect example of that, Backstrom early on as well. Ovechkins goal scoring was a big difference maker a majority of the post season, while Kuzy was obviously right there with him. Either way, Ovechkin deserved MVP.

This right here gets missed a ton. People do mention his peak, but kind of forget HOW GREAT it actually was. Had he played every single game from his peak, this would not have even been a discussion:

• 4 Harts
• 3 Lindsays
• 3 Art Rosses
• 4 Rockets
• 4x First Team
• 1 Second

I reckon had he not fell off and continued his peak (from 2010-2012), there could have been more harts/rockets/lindsays/rosses. He may have swept all the awards from 2007-13, that would be top-4 all-time status. THAT is how GREAT he was!

Simply put, his peak was all-time great and you would be hard pressed to find 10 guys better

 

[GreatGonzo]

This right here gets missed a ton. People do mention his peak, but kind of forget HOW GREAT it actually was. Had he played every single game from his peak, this would not have even been a discussion:

• 4 Harts
• 3 Lindsays
• 3 Art Rosses
• 4 Rockets
• 4x First Team
• 1 Second

I reckon had he not fell off and continued his peak (from 2010-2012), there could have been more harts/rockets/lindsays/rosses.

Simply put, his peak was all-time great and you would be hard pressed to find 10 guys better

What is more absurd is the idea that he isn’t a top 10 player BECAUSE his peak didn’t continue? Yet those same people have no idea how his peak alone puts him in a very very elite class of Legends. Like you said, hard to name 10 players with a better peak. The fact that he continued his goal scoring dominance after the fact shouldn’t be held against him.

I mean, even after 2013, is 5 Rockets, a Hart/Lindsay nominee, with a smythe and cup should not be that much of a drawback that he no longer is even in the running.

 

[Varan]

What is more absurd is the idea that he isn’t a top 10 player BECAUSE his peak didn’t continue? Yet those same people have no idea how his peak alone puts him in a very very elite class of Legends. Like you said, hard to name 10 players with a better peak. The fact that he continued his goal scoring dominance after the fact shouldn’t be held against him.

I mean, even after 2013, is 5 Rockets, a Hart/Lindsay nominee, with a smythe and cup should not be that much of a drawback that he no longer is even in the running.

Exactly. I didn't know your peak was the only thing that allows you to become a top-10 player.

Ovechkin outside his peak, albeit not the same player, changed his game that still allowed him to be a top-player in the league and continue his dominance. He has a chance to break Gretzky's record, doing this 10 years from his peak. I mean really guys. Plus he won a cup + CS while leading the PO in goals and PPG in the last 2 rounds.

IDK what more he has to do. His second half should cement his top-10 status, not hinder it.

 

[sr edler]

This right here gets missed a ton. People do mention his peak, but kind of forget HOW GREAT it actually was. Had he played every single game from his peak, this would not have even been a discussion:

• 4 Harts
• 3 Lindsays
• 3 Art Rosses
• 4 Rockets
• 4x First Team
• 1 Second

Firstly, if you do this "had he played every single game from his peak" for a single player, you must do it for everyone else too, unless you want one favorable separate fantasy criteria for your own favorite guy and a real life criteria for everyone else. Secondly, Ovechkin's Hart in 2013 (which by the way didn't coincide with his peak) was very far away from being dominant. He finished T-3rd in scoring with a guy who played 12 less games. How is that dominant? He had 3 more points than Eric Staal. 3! His 56 points outscored the next 2 best Capitals players (Ribeiro and Bäckström) by 7 and 8 points, not exactly a gap by gargantuan proportions. Patrick Kane with his 55 points had a game in hand and thus better PPG. He was what, 5th in PPG for the season? Yeah that's absolutely outrageously dominant for a guy who doesn't even brought the same kind of physicality he did at his peak.....

The fact that he continued his goal scoring dominance after the fact shouldn’t be held against him.

His continued goal scoring dominance came at the expense of his overall offensive game, so yes, it's gonna get held against him while comparing him against the best scorers in the league. We're not comparing him against Jeff Carter here. Leading the league in scoring while not finishing top 10 in points is something fellow WSH player Peter Bondra did twice, and there's a reason Bondra's not a HHOFer despite 500+ goals.

 

[Varan]

Firstly, if you do this "had he played every single game from his peak" for a single player, you must do it for everyone else too, unless you want one favorable separate fantasy criteria for your own favorite guy and a real life criteria for everyone else. Secondly, Ovechkin's Hart in 2013 (which by the way didn't coincide with his peak) was very far away from being dominant. He finished T-3rd in scoring with a guy who played 12 less games. How is that dominant? He had 3 more points than Eric Staal. 3! His 56 points outscored the next 2 best Capitals players (Ribeiro and Bäckström) by 7 and 8 points, not exactly a gap by gargantuan proportions. Patrick Kane with his 55 points had a game in hand and thus better PPG. He was what, 5th in PPG for the season? Yeah that's absolutely outrageously dominant for a guy who doesn't even brought the same kind of physicality he did at his peak.....

I'm just talking about his peak from 2007-10 (I don't use 11-13, but for the sake of GreatGonzo's example I did). You're acting like OV missed 50 games from those 3 years. He missed 12 games. Those 12 games were crucial because they could have allowed him to SWEEP the awards. All the while leading the league in points, PPG, GPG, 200+ hits, possession monster, etc, etc.

Name me another player who had that kind of dominance. 12 games missed for another player wouldn't have resulted in the amount of awards OV could have gotten.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Firstly, if you do this "had he played every single game from his peak" for a single player, you must do it for everyone else too, unless you want one favorable separate fantasy criteria for your own favorite guy and a real life criteria for everyone else. Secondly, Ovechkin's Hart in 2013 (which by the way didn't coincide with his peak) was very far away from being dominant. He finished T-3rd in scoring with a guy who played 12 less games. How is that dominant? He had 3 more points than Eric Staal. 3! His 56 points outscored the next 2 best Capitals players (Ribeiro and Bäckström) by 7 and 8 points, not exactly a gap by gargantuan proportions. Patrick Kane with his 55 points had a game in hand and thus better PPG. He was what, 5th in PPG for the season? Yeah that's absolutely outrageously dominant for a guy who doesn't even brought the same kind of physicality he did at his peak.....



His continued goal scoring dominance came at the expense of his overall offensive game, so yes, it's gonna get held against him while comparing him against the best scorers in the league. We're not comparing him against Jeff Carter here. Leading the league in scoring while not finishing top 10 in points is something fellow WSH player Peter Bondra did twice, and there's a reason Bondra's not a HHOFer despite 500+ goals.

He didn’t play every single game of his peak and still has one that puts him in some legendary company. You call it “fantasy”, but the reality is his peak is probably the best of this era and one of the best all time.

You notice how you love to nitpick basic facts to try to belittle them for your agenda? It’s sad. “His 2013 Hart wasn’t even that dominant!” 32 goals in 48 games with a Hart isn’t dominant enough for you? Then maybe stick to some consistent standards instead of changing them constantly to fit your narrative. Facts are, he finished the season with a Hart and with a Rocket, sorry if that’s not good enough for you but luckily your idea of “dominant” doesn’t need to be taken into consideration.

And again with the your need to dissect and analyze it in your own way He hit 50 goals 4 times while walking away with 5 Rockets after 2013. He sits 1st in goals and 4th in points since that time as well.

We get it, you HAVE to belittle such basic achievements because you can’t handle the truth, but facts are his peak was one of the greatest all time. No amount of your ridiculous standards and salty claims changes that. Find another way to work out your dislike for Ovechkin because this is clearly not working for you.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I'm just talking about his peak from 2007-10 (I don't use 11-13, but for the sake of GreatGonzo's example I did). You're acting like OV missed 50 games from those 3 years. He missed 12 games. Those 12 games were crucial because they could have allowed him to SWEEP the awards. All the while leading the league in points, PPG, GPG, 200+ hits, possession monster, etc, etc.

Name me another player who had that kind of dominance. 12 games missed for another player wouldn't have resulted in the amount of awards OV could have gotten.

He missed 3 games in 08/09 and 10 in 09/10. Forget 12, if he had played even 1 extra game each season he would have swept all of the awards. But even as things played out:

-3 lindsays
-2 harts (+1 runner up)
-2 rockets (+1 runner up)
-1 ross (+2 runner ups)
-3x PPG leader
-3x GPG leader
-3x 1st AST

No one outside the big 4 has a better 3 year stretch than that. But people still find ways to hate lol. "hE dIdN't kEeP uP hIs PeAk!"

 

[sr edler]

What's suspect with Ovi's peak demise is that it didn't coincide with any injuries, he just stopped being a dominant player all of a sudden, while still being young, and two seasons later he had a healthy season with 65 points, then 9 points in 14 playoff games when his team bailed out against the Rangers in the 2nd round.

Ovi's goal/assist ratio this season.... he's doing it again. He's 9th on his team in assists at the moment. He's got 4 more assists at the moment than.... Radko Gudas. 3 more assists than Hagelin and Kempny. And rebound-assists are most likely relatively heftily included in that package....... that's the gold standard of a designated sniper.

He's also –14 with only 2 other players on the team being minus (Bäckström –1, Kuznetsov –2).

 

[GreatGonzo]

What's suspect with Ovi's peak demise is that it didn't coincide with any injuries, he just stopped being a dominant player all of a sudden, while still being young, and two seasons later he had a healthy season with 65 points, then 9 points in 14 playoff games when his team bailed out against the Rangers in the 2nd round.

Ovi's goal/assist ratio this season.... he's doing it again. He's 9th on his team in assists at the moment. He's got 4 more assists at the moment than.... Radko Gudas. 3 more assists than Hagelin and Kempny. And rebound-assists are most likely relatively heftily included in that package....... that's the gold standard of a designated sniper.

He's also –14 with only 2 other players on the team being minus (Bäckström –1, Kuznetsov –2).

And again, “stopped being a dominant player.” He didn’t stop being a dominant player considering he remained the best goal scorer among top wingers, so again you need to re-evaluate what standards your basing this off of. I mean context clearly isn’t one of your strongest factors, but Ovechkin still had 38 goals and lead his entire team in scoring with only 65 points, he also followed it up with a Hart winning season, but yes continue being selective on when he wasn’t up to your liking.

“He isn’t scoring enough assists! Assists are important! Goals?! Psshhh, how many assists does he have though?” That’s all I got out of your ridiculous statement.

Yes, he’s having an off year, and even then he still has 60 points with 43 goals. Are you just going to continue beating a dead horse and soak up this moment to call out Ovechkin for everything he does wrong? Because we both know you wouldn’t be saying anything if he wasn’t playing so “bad.” It’s the same story every time, Ovechkin has an off year, and many can’t wait to hop on the wagon and call him out for it.

 

[GreatGonzo]

He missed 3 games in 08/09 and 10 in 09/10. Forget 12, if he had played even 1 extra game each season he would have swept all of the awards. But even as things played out:

-3 lindsays
-2 harts (+1 runner up)
-2 rockets (+1 runner up)
-1 ross (+2 runner ups)
-3x PPG leader
-3x GPG leader
-3x 1st AST

No one outside the big 4 has a better 3 year stretch than that. But people still find ways to hate lol. "hE dIdN't kEeP uP hIs PeAk!"

Many outside the big 4 didn’t even have a better peak than Ovechkin, BUT they probably have more assists, which we all know has to matter now.

assists>goals, no one cares how many goals he has. He needs a certain level of playmaking for everyone’s liking. 700 goals? Not that impressive, he just shoots a lot. Try being a really good player and just compile secondary assists.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

What's suspect with Ovi's peak demise is that it didn't coincide with any injuries, he just stopped being a dominant player all of a sudden, while still being young, and two seasons later he had a healthy season with 65 points, then 9 points in 14 playoff games when his team bailed out against the Rangers in the 2nd round.

Ovi's goal/assist ratio this season.... he's doing it again. He's 9th on his team in assists at the moment. He's got 4 more assists at the moment than.... Radko Gudas. 3 more assists than Hagelin and Kempny. And rebound-assists are most likely relatively heftily included in that package....... that's the gold standard of a designated sniper.

He's also –14 with only 2 other players on the team being minus (Bäckström –1, Kuznetsov –2).

What exactly do you mean by this? Obviously he wasn't as good as he was from 05/06-09/10 (99% of players in history weren't though), but from 10/11-18/19 (9 seasons) OV has

-1x hart
-5x top 10 hart (1,2,6,7,9,12,14,23)
-2x Lindsay finalist
-1x smythe
-6x rocket
-6x GPG leader
-7x top 5 in goals
-7x top 10 in ESG (5x top 5)
-4x top 10 in pts
-3x 1st AST
-3x 2nd AST

99% likely adding a top 3 goal finish this season and another solid hart finish. So after his peak he still has a resume better than 95% of HOFers. He's been the clear best goal scorer in the league, more often than not a top 10 player (5/9 seasons, 7/9 top 15), positive possession player, 200+ hits a season, etc. So yeah he's not peak OV obviously, no one is saying that but it's unreasonable to expect anyone to maintain that level considering 1% of players in history ever did anything like that. He's still been one of the best players in the league though and that's more than good enough.

Big deal. As mentioned, OV isn't at his peak anymore, he's older. He's not expected or asked to make plays every shift and carry the caps on his back. There are better playmakers than him and he is the best goal scorer in the league, it doesn't make sense for him to have the puck on his stick that much. The coaching staff has a plan and he follows it.

So the 3 best forwards on the caps are the only guys who are a minus? Kind of tells you all you need to know about the stat right? I mean Malkin is +10 and Crosby is -7, nobody cares. But for some reason it's always a big deal with OV.

 

[nowhereman]

You only have a point IF I actually had a bias against Crosby, where as Daver defies all logic, moves the goal posts, while contradicting his own arguments constantly all for his love and loyalty to Crosby. One is clearly not like the other and your defending someone who is notorious for his Pro Crosby antics. He has an impulse to protect and fight for his legendary name.

You could have fooled me by the fact the your name appears in practically every Crosby thread, to some effect, and it is very rarely to do anything but discredit his accomplishments (especially if he's being compared to OV). I'm not defending daver; just claiming that the bias goes both ways.

I'm guilty myself of getting sucked in to these dumb back-and-forths, as it's easy to get riled up with all the illogical crap about "secondary assists" and "riding Malkin's coattails" that usually gets spewed by the usual suspects. That said, I've pretty much lost interest in this tired debate, since I realized that I shouldn't have to tear down my second favorite player of this generation (OV) just to defend my favorite player of this generation (Crosby). They are both legends and it's sad that a lot of people can't accept that.