I'd probably quit watching hockey if they banned fighting

[PWB]

That is your reasoning for banning fighting... My point to you is both hitting and fighting can jeopardize the health of the players. Both lead to brain damage and there is far more hitting in hockey than fights. So let's eliminate hitting to reduce the likelihood of brain damage and brain related diseases.

We have. We have eliminated certain types of hits for this very reason. Most of us don't want to see players hurt, and most of us realize that it is not possible to eliminate all risk of injury. Clean tackles are as integral to football as clean hits are integral to hockey.

Activities should not necessarily be treated similarly simply because there is the possibility that they can lead to the same result. And I think you're at greater risk of a concussion from a punch to your face than you are from a clean body check.

 

[haseoke39]

My point is that if all you can say to rebut the charge that fighting leads to irreparable brain damage that has killed players and continues to instill an unhealthy culture in the Canadian junior leagues (15 year olds fighting 20 year olds is called child abuse anywhere else) is to whine that what I really want is to end hitting, blocking shots and manliness of all sorts, you've got nothing of value to say. You're desperate to defeat me by insisting I've said something I plainly haven't. It would be like me retorting to you, "nobody makes you play hockey! That's why you can pile drive players into the ice head first from behind, right guys?? That's why you can slit an opponent's throat with your skate!"

I don't have to sit back and pretend what you've said is worthwhile. If you can't address somebody's point, you get ignored. Cry about it.

 

[SgtJoseph*]

I am truly ambivalent about this....I am a neuroscientist and a hockey player...and I love the fighting. It is an important, strategic aspect of the game (look at Sbitz fight in the Wild/Ducks game last night--completely changed the momentum of the game-- and the wild won), and lets be honest--its really fun to watch. I miss the days in college hockey when there was fighting.

But it is absolutely true that you are "trading money for brain cells" when you are an enforcer in the nhl. Enforcers are bigger and stronger than they have ever been and most train to box. When you are dazed after hitting your head that is caused by brain damage. Its just a fact.

It seems to me fighting in hockey is very similar to steroids in baseball. Having baseball players on steroids was a great money maker for MLB and fans loved the home run chases. MLB just looked the other way while the players needed to participate to complete. Yes, you didn't need to dope up. But you where left behind if you didn't. That's not protecting players.

Having enforcers fight is a great money maker for the NHL--and we love the fights. (There is the tradition aspect to this as well). Yes you don't need to fight. But if you need to fight to make the NHL, you may get left behind if you don't. And once you become an enforcer, you need to play your role--otherwise you will be let go. We know repeated blows to the head causes brain damage--although the NHL might not admit it. They are not protecting their players.

Some day in the future the evidence will be too overwhelming. I for one will be in favor of the ban....but super reluctantly....it will diminish the sport.

Its just hard to admit to oneself that some of the money that goes toward your ticket is causing irreparable brain damage to some young kid.

You make some very good points here.....I am not so sure "most" of us really need a doctor or science etc to tell us that getting hit in the head repeatedly is not good for us and can cause brain damage etc ?
To me, fighting in the NHL is beautiful, because it is " usually" done by 2 willing combatants to enforce or to hold someone "really" accountable for ones actions during a game.Our society is becoming more and more feminized every day by a culture that is turning men into nothing more than sniveling little whining liberals who are taught they need anger management classes whenever they show a little testosterone or raise their voices etc....Elton John is today's idea of what a modern day man should be it seems these days ? Men showing real masculinity and courage by settling disputes or wrongs with a good fist fight in front of 18k people is quite frankly refreshing for us folks who were born and raised to become men by a generation of folks who knew there was real differences between a man and a woman, and who believed in honor and courage.

 

[JustGivingEr]

My point is that if all you can say to rebut the charge that fighting leads to irreparable brain damage that has killed players and continues to instill an unhealthy culture in the Canadian junior leagues (15 year olds fighting 20 year olds is called child abuse anywhere else) is to whine that what I really want is to end hitting, blocking shots and manliness of all sorts, you've got nothing of value to say. You're desperate to defeat me by insisting I've said something I plainly haven't. It would be like me retorting to you, "nobody makes you play hockey! That's why you can pile drive players into the ice head first from behind, right guys?? That's why you can slit an opponent's throat with your skate!"

I don't have to sit back and pretend what you've said is worthwhile. If you can't address somebody's point, you get ignored. Cry about it.

Although his argument may be flawed, I don't see what is wrong with his basic premise. The main argument which you have made (I have read all your posts) is that fighting causes brain trauma and should therefore be abolished. What I've gotten from his posts are that he is making a comparison towards hitting. He's saying that hitting causes brain trauma as well and is wondering why you seem to want to ban fighting due to head trauma but completely avoid the subject when it comes to hitting.

 

[SgtJoseph*]

Another logical article ?http://www.infoplease.com/spot/hockeyfighting1.html

 

[haseoke39]

Because hitting causes brain damages on flukey or (mostly now) illegal hits, and hitting is an actual part of game play, whereas fighting is not a part of play and is pretty much the combatants directly attempting to inflict brain damage on each other. Not a very difficult distinction.

 

[haseoke39]

I've said it before, this bit about fighting being some kind of necessary evil because things would get worse without it: no other hockey league or sporting league of any kind in the world corroborates. It's absurd. It's fight-lovers trying to justify something to themselves by excluding all contradictory evidence from their perspective.

 

[SgtJoseph*]

Because hitting causes brain damages on flukey or (mostly now) illegal hits, and hitting is an actual part of game play, whereas fighting is not a part of play and is pretty much the combatants directly attempting to inflict brain damage on each other. Not a very difficult distinction.

Respectfully do you " really" believe that 2 folks in a fist fight are trying to cause " brain damage" to each other ? How bout a good check into the boards ? Is that a person trying to break another persons ribs ? or trying to cause whip lash ?

 

[haseoke39]

There's a distinction. A good check happens in the course of gameplay. The purpose of a good check is to stop the opponent from getting the puck (or something like that). If one player went up to another after the whistle had blown and smoked them into the boards, there would be no doubt that the intent was to simply hurt them.

 

[Positive]

Outlaw heading a ball ! Outlaw Soccer ! Lets " feminize" the kids, the NHL, football etc !.........News flash ! Sports can be and are dangerous !http://www.boston.com/Boston/dailyd...rain-injury/gZQAWL3qMb9z03pnwoXQHN/index.html

Straw man argument.

 

[mygameworn]

Fighting is a part of the game, it's been in the game as long as hitting has. The same players you want to protect, want fighting in the game. Concussions aren't just caused by the "illegal" body checks and punches to the head.

It's funny how you claim fighters WANT to inflict brain damage, yet we've seen a lot of legal and illegal body checks that have resulted in unnecessary brain damage as you want to put it. Just over the past couple of seasons we've seen fans argue over these hits. If you research, more players have received concussions from body checks than fists.




Countless players see a purpose and encourage fighting. If your main concern is Brain damage, then you have to remove all variables and all possible scenarios. You can't pick and choose.

 

[haseoke39]

If your main concern is Brain damage, then you have to remove all variables and all possible scenarios. You can't pick and choose.

Yes, you can. I would choose to take out the part of the game that is not a part of game play.

I've said it before, this ******** argument that if you take out fighting, you have to take out everything that could ever hurt a player is just as stupid and misguided as saying the inverse.

 

[SgtJoseph*]

Straw man argument.

Not sure i agree tin man. The OP was about fighting in hockey and whether you would still watch it etc....Then it went into outlawing fighting because studies show it can cause brain damage ?Just simply showing that brain damage can be caused by all types of things related to sport, whether it be Pro Hockey or Soccer etc.....My side simply says fighting is fine between 2 willing combatants, and let the chips fall where they fall...I believe fighting has its place in the NHL, and others may disagree which is fine by me......But basing it on "brain damage" is a bit shallow in my opinion....Whether folks want to admit it or not......MOST love the high speed, energy, and hard hitting of pro hockey, and when attending a game you can feel the drama unfold when after a big hit or a cheap slash etc, someone is fixin to have to man up and answer........Its pure and beautiful to watch !

 

[mygameworn]

Yes, you can. I would choose to take out the part of the game that is not a part of game play.

I've said it before, this ******** argument that if you take out fighting, you have to take out everything that could ever hurt a player is just as stupid and misguided as saying the inverse.

The majority of hockey fights take place during game play.
If your main concern is player safety then how is it ********? You have to protect everyone right? Just let the game be and let people choose their own fate.

 

[DG]

Ban fighting. Too much evidence that it causes brain damage, sickening piece in the NY Times the last couple days went over the research. Adds nothing to the game but one wasted roster spot for goons.

This evidence isn't new. Chris Nowitski, the guy in the video, is a former WWE wrestler and has been doing this work since concussions forced him in to retirement years ago.

People think that this kind of dementia (caused by brain trauma) might have been the case of Chris Benoit murdering his family...

It's not new, it's just not being publicized much either.

 

[haseoke39]

The majority of hockey fights take place during game play.
If your main concern is player safety then how is it ********? You have to protect everyone right? Just let the game be and let people choose their own fate.

Nope, nope and nope. Fighting stops game play every time.

And we disallow hits to the head, running the goalie, spearing, cross checks to the back of Steve Moore's neck and kicking because they don't advance game play while putting players in a position vulnerable to injury. Nobody said "you can't take the Steve Moore hit out of the game because it would mean having to take out all hitting." Why? Because that's an ab-****ing-surd thought. And it's ab-****ing-surd to presume that it applies here.

I want to see the game played by the best players with the smallest likelihood of injury. With respect to each of those elements, fighting stops the game, takes up roster spots with crap players and has what is now being reported as a terrible likelihood to injure guys gravely over time with accumulated brain trauma. You can't even say with certainty that they're a minority, because guess what? 4 out of 4 post mortems on hockey player brains have shown this effect. I don't want to have to watch my entertainment in the knowledge that I'm helping put someone into dementia. If that's your cup of tea, enjoy it.

 

[SgtJoseph*]

I've said it before, this bit about fighting being some kind of necessary evil because things would get worse without it: no other hockey league or sporting league of any kind in the world corroborates. It's absurd. It's fight-lovers trying to justify something to themselves by excluding all contradictory evidence from their perspective.

And the other hockey leagues do not have near the following as the NHL........Where do most of the great players play ?

 

[SgtJoseph*]

This evidence isn't new. Chris Nowitski, the guy in the video, is a former WWE wrestler and has been doing this work since concussions forced him in to retirement years ago.

People think that this kind of dementia (caused by brain trauma) might have been the case of Chris Benoit murdering his family...

It's not new, it's just not being publicized much either.

Chris Benoit SEVERELY abused steroids etc........Just saying ?

 

[haseoke39]

If you think Sidney Crosby is playing in the NHL over, say, the KHL, because the NHL allows fighting, you're on some spectacular drugs.

 

[SgtJoseph*]

Nope, nope and nope. Fighting stops game play every time.

And we disallow hits to the head, running the goalie, spearing, cross checks to the back of Steve Moore's neck and kicking because they don't advance game play while putting players in a position vulnerable to injury. Nobody said "you can't take the Steve Moore hit out of the game because it would mean having to take out all hitting." Why? Because that's an ab-****ing-surd thought. And it's ab-****ing-surd to presume that it applies here.

I want to see the game played by the best players with the smallest likelihood of injury. With respect to each of those elements, fighting stops the game, takes up roster spots with crap players and has what is now being reported as a terrible likelihood to injure guys gravely over time with accumulated brain trauma. You can't even say with certainty that they're a minority, because guess what? 4 out of 4 post mortems on hockey player brains have shown this effect. I don't want to have to watch my entertainment in the knowledge that I'm helping put someone into dementia. If that's your cup of tea, enjoy it.

Perhaps you should seriously just stay home and spend your money elsewhere if you feel you are contributing towards a player to get Dimentia etc, or perhaps contributing to DUI victims by supporting a NHL team that has Beer advertisers at their Arena etc ?...Sport is not for every one, it never has been.There is no shame in that really.I have heard that Curling has a large following, and that its participants are much less likely to get head injuries etc....It's also played on ice.

 

[haseoke39]

Perhaps you should seriously just stay home and spend your money elsewhere if you feel you are contributing towards a player to get Dimentia etc, or perhaps contributing to DUI victims by supporting a NHL team that has Beer advertisers at their Arena etc ?...Sport is not for every one, it never has been.There is no shame in that really.I have heard that Curling has a large following, and that its participants are much less likely to get head injuries etc....It's also played on ice.

Excellent retort. A+

 

[Moebius]

Respectfully do you " really" believe that 2 folks in a fist fight are trying to cause " brain damage" to each other ? How bout a good check into the boards ? Is that a person trying to break another persons ribs ? or trying to cause whip lash ?

A knockout IS brain damage in this sport (people aren't going for anything other than the head, usually, in hockey fights). That's what people try to do to each other in a fight.

 

[haseoke39]

This whole discussion really just displays how self-absorbed and thoughtless some of you fight-proponents are. A thoughtful debate, if you wanted to have one, would be to try and address the science, try and reason that Boogaard and all the others are flukes, that fighting doesn't tend to have any long term aggregate effects, that 4 out of 4 player autopsies with bad brain trauma aren't a meaningful trend, but that's not what you try. Faced with the argument that you're contributing to early dementia and degenerative brain conditions in athletes by demanding they literally beat their brains in for your petty entertainment, you argue that somehow this makes you a better fan or more masculine. It doesn't. It's quite the opposite.

And since I've already been accused of taking my position as a product of my presumed "liberal"ness, I'll just throw it out there that this reeks of your presumed callous conservatism at its worst.

 

[SgtJoseph*]

If you think Sidney Crosby is playing in the NHL over, say, the KHL, because the NHL allows fighting, you're on some spectacular drugs.

Not saying that at all......But he is playing in the NHL because its a terrific league, and fighting happens to be a very small part of it....If there was more enforcers today and the 3rd man in rule was dropped, there would be much less of the HUGE hits you see today that are causing most

of the head injuries, simply because those players know they will have to answer the bell and dance ......Bobby Clarke did not get hit too much back in the day for a reason ? Nor did Mccleish, Barber,etc.It was truly the greatest time for the NHL in my opinion.

 

[mygameworn]

Nope, nope and nope. Fighting stops game play every time.

And we disallow hits to the head, running the goalie, spearing, cross checks to the back of Steve Moore's neck and kicking because they don't advance game play while putting players in a position vulnerable to injury. Nobody said "you can't take the Steve Moore hit out of the game because it would mean having to take out all hitting." Why? Because that's an ab-****ing-surd thought. And it's ab-****ing-surd to presume that it applies here.

I want to see the game played by the best players with the smallest likelihood of injury. With respect to each of those elements, fighting stops the game, takes up roster spots with crap players and has what is now being reported as a terrible likelihood to injure guys gravely over time with accumulated brain trauma. You can't even say with certainty that they're a minority, because guess what? 4 out of 4 post mortems on hockey player brains have shown this effect. I don't want to have to watch my entertainment in the knowledge that I'm helping put someone into dementia. If that's your cup of tea, enjoy it.

See this is where the truth comes out. Why not start with this instead of grasping at one aspect of the game. Why wait till now to tell how you really feel? You want fighting out of the game so it will be better for you and if it helps reduce brain trauma for players then you want to use it as a vehicle to get what you want. Are you in politics?

Now it makes sense. No point in continuing this discussion.