Post-Game Talk: i don't like this team right now (Mod warning post #93)

[ArGarBarGar]

MOD But since you asked, I'll highlight it:

Then just say "the entire post."

What you said wasn't a sufficient answer, and your responses are not going to lead to civil discussion.

 

[Magicman]

Some people around here clung to the idea as recently as 2 months ago that Holland had things under control and that it was amazing how he could restock while still keeping the streak alive.

Many of those same people now saying Holland has some grand, secret tanking/rebuild plan to return to prominence.

Just wow, those are some world class mental gymnastics there. The truth is, as bad as the players have been, as bad as the coach has been, the GM ain't been remotely good for a while.

The GM is the most important position in a rebuild. I have no confidence that Holland is capable of it.

Rebuilds make GM's geniuses when thier picks over-perform thier draft number. And make them dummies when the top picks don't pan out.

Did Holland become stupid overnight, of course not. But the picks just haven't overacheived as they had in the past.

And today there is not a 2nd iron curtin to fall so there are no more very good Russian pros to take a chance on.

I don't think Holland is a bad GM I just think, he has blinded himself to the changing landscape of the NHL.

And quite possibly made the dreaded mistake of not listening to his staff.

 

[Dotter]

I agree that it's not a smart business practice, nor an efficient means to build a team, to be constantly active in the trade market. It's simply not nearly as statistically effective as drafting smartly.

That said, can you understand why some fans are frustrated at seeing a team decline, while their gm uses trades far less often than the vast majority of other teams in the league? I'm not saying it should be a frequent method, but if it's utilized at the other extreme end of the spectrum, it feels like not every reasonable facet is being tried to improve things.


This summer I was on both this board and the league trade boards, drumming up whatever discussion I could to trade for Fowler. I was willing to part with Tatar and any additional piece not named Larkin to get it done. Some reasonable compromises in dialogues with Ducks fans included Tatar/AA or Tatar/Sheahan. At the time, I was even willing to throw in a 2nd rounder, and was pondering a 1st rounder. At the moment, I'm a bit more hesitant about using that last resource, just because the likelihood of a very high pick is increasing, but the point is that I believe this franchise needs multiple quality defensemen, and I'm perfectly willing to give up significant resources to get them. Really, they should have tried to make a trade like that, plus drafting Cholo (or whomever), PLUS trying to go after one or more guys on top of that, whether via draft or free agency or trade. They should be stocking the pond with blue liners - maybe at a ratio of 2 or 3 for every forward they target - and, once they find a few that stick, they can return to a more balanced ratio. (Although, had they been a bit more balanced in the past, such an extreme swing might not be necessary.)

But the point is that it's been several years since they've been willing to break any eggs to make this omelette. However it happened, here they are, and it's time to make some tough decisions going forward.

I kind of remember the discussions about Fowler. I remember some Detroit fans saying they didn't want to part with AA and Wings can't afford to give up a top 3 center. I do remember Ducks fans were entertaining a trade around Nyquist or Tatar. I think Nyquist+ was their 1st choice.

But reading their boards, some Ducks fans wanted to trade Fowler for a better defenseman. And called him a 2-4 dman at best. Not really sure.

That said, looking back, I guess Tatar+Sheahan would be great for Detroit. But just because we propose it doesn't make it feasible that Ducks ownership would make that trade.

But your point is proven. That would be a good trade for Detroit to this date. But not a trade that would make this team significantly better. Wings would be down an important center. And maybe Nyquist too.

 

[Obe2kenobe]

re: why the team has regressed

Team confidence is at an all time low. They have no "will". -Yes that falls on coaching
They have no urgency. -Yes that falls on coaching

What Babock had to do in this situation was go back to basic hockey. It would help the team come back out of their funk. Blashill keeps trying to force square peg in round hole. It's not working.

That said, that's what you get when you have a young inexperienced team... from coaching down. I don't think the leaders (Zetterberg/Kronwall) are doing a good job either, in fact they are part of the problem. They are not vocal enough and they don't/can't lead by example like Yzerman did. Blashill needs to get pissed off, but he's pacifying like Dave Lewis did. Someone needs to get pissed off.

Babcock would not be so nice to players when they aren't playing with urgency.

I agree with you that there confidence is low. But not on no will or urgency. I noticed Nyquist looked more frustrated than I have ever noticed him before. I think he feels the urgency to score. I've mentioned before Blashill's body language doesn't look like he is confident to me. And I wonder if that lack of confidence effects the team. A good coach knows when he needs to kick a player in the butt so to speak. And when to pat a guy on the back. Maybe Blashill isn't very good at being able to tell when to do that.

 

[Frk It]

Just don't want an infraction. But since you asked, I'll highlight it:

Many of those same people now saying Holland has some grand, secret tanking/rebuild plan to return to prominence.

Henkk'a post may have been deleted but he/she said:

They don't tell the real plans for the media, or anybody, because that would hurt the business-side of things.

and

No wonder why Detroit press is so quiet about things. They are forced in the play, also.

and as for this:

Some people around here clung to the idea as recently as 2 months ago that Holland had things under control and that it was amazing how he could restock while still keeping the streak alive.

I mean, I could give you 100 posts for this. Wasn't this your general stance 2 months ago?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

In today's NHL, the salary cap has forced teams to rebuild quickly, and have a revolving door of prospects available to make the jump to the NHL.

If an organization can't rebuild within 3-4 years, then the organization will be forced to start another rebuild. The Edmonton Oilers are the "perfect" example. By rebuilding i mean, the organization has established a core group of players they want to build around.

You just can't run a team like the Wings have been doing the past 6-7 years and expect to have any long term success. The league is setup to punish teams that try to operate like that.

The Wings kicked the can down the road till they ran out of road, and then they tried to kick it some more.

Keep in mind that the Wings have been operating in the exact same fashion since the beginning of the 09-10 season. That is ridiculous when you compare the 09-10 roster to the 2016-2017 roster. That to me looks like hubris. It looks like the organization thinks they make the players, when in reality, the players make the organization.

 

[Dotter]

Then just say "the entire post."

What you said wasn't a sufficient answer, and your responses are not going to lead to civil discussion.

I don't read every post posted on HFboard, but at first glance his entire post seemed untruthful. I am not sure someone actually said what the poster is mocking.

I just never seen it.

 

[The Zermanator]

Rebuilds make GM's geniuses when thier picks over-perform thier draft number. And make them dummies when the top picks don't pan out.

Did Holland become stupid overnight, of course not. But the picks just haven't overacheived as they had in the past.

And today there is not a 2nd iron curtin to fall so there are no more very good Russian pros to take a chance on.

I don't think Holland is a bad GM I just think, he has blinded himself to the changing landscape of the NHL.

And quite possibly made the dreaded mistake of not listening to his staff.

Well a big part of the problem, like many around here believe, is that there doesn't seem to really be any kind of plan. There are intentions, sure, and theories perhaps, coming from the front office. But the official word has been 'rebuild on the fly for years now. And where are we?

The so-called rebuild on the fly has led to a near basement team that doesn't seem to have reached its floor, yet has the highest payroll in the league. What is Holland building towards? If the basement was the destination, was stubbornly ignoring the fact that this team was an easy first round out for several years now wise? You can count the number of playoff victories in the last several years on one hand. Was that worth delaying the inevitable by desperately signing bad contracts? We could have been 2-3 years into a rebuild already.

That's the problem that I, and many others here, have with Holland. He has been desperately treading water for years under the delusion that 'anything can happen in the playoffs.' IMO, being a playoff Cinderella story is a far more unlikely wager than just actually committing to building a team from the bottom up. As a result of these missteps on Holland's part, at this point I think this team needs change from the top down before they make any forward progress. I'll be happy if Holland proves me wrong and can do it, but his body of work over the past half decade (and really, he hasn't done much at all since 08-09) suggests otherwise.

 

[The Zermanator]

Henkk'a post may have been deleted but he/she said:



and



and as for this:



I mean, I could give you 100 posts for this. Wasn't this your general stance 2 months ago?

Thanks for doing the legwork for me Frk!

 

[Dotter]

Henkk'a post may have been deleted but he/she said:



and



and as for this:



I mean, I could give you 100 posts for this. Wasn't this your general stance 2 months ago?

I don't think it's that black and white. It's not either going all-in for the Stanley cup or bust for top 3 overall lottery pick. It doesn't work that way. I think that goes without saying.

Nobody here thinks Wings are going all in for a cup, and nobody here thinks Wings are secretly tanking. What they are doing is trying to make the playoffs and trying to draft wisely. I think now that Jim Nill is gone, Wings are doing a much better job.

But to mock posters and say they are talking out both sides of their mouth is just a flat out lie. And I called out the poster for lying.

 

[Dotter]

I agree with you that there confidence is low. But not on no will or urgency. I noticed Nyquist looked more frustrated than I have ever noticed him before. I think he feels the urgency to score. I've mentioned before Blashill's body language doesn't look like he is confident to me. And I wonder if that lack of confidence effects the team. A good coach knows when he needs to kick a player in the butt so to speak. And when to pat a guy on the back. Maybe Blashill isn't very good at being able to tell when to do that.

They are frustrated. But there is no urgency. They don't notch up their game play or go in desperation mode. They aren't playing to win; they are playing not to lose. And it's not working.

 

[Shaman464]

I don't think it's that black and white. It's not either going all-in for the Stanley cup or bust for top 3 overall lottery pick. It doesn't work that way. I think that goes without saying.

Nobody here thinks Wings are going all in for a cup, and nobody here thinks Wings are secretly tanking. What they are doing is trying to make the playoffs and trying to draft wisely. I think now that Jim Nill is gone, Wings are doing a much better job.

But to mock posters and say they are talking out both sides of their mouth is just a flat out lie. And I called out the poster for lying.

Much better job of what? Aside from Larkin recent drafts are either par for the course or out for determination later. I would argue this years draft has the chance of being a total bust, as most of the prospects are gambles.

 

[Frk It]

I would argue this years draft has the chance of being a total bust, as most of the prospects are gambles.

What do you mean by that?

 

[HockeyinHD]

Tanking teams don't sign role players to 7 year deals though dude.

I think you should look at the contract construction of 'tanking' teams.

Colorado has 3 long contracts, Vancouver has a couple, Arizona has a couple, Buffalo has 3, NJ has 3, Carolina has 2 or 3.

As others have said, you do still have to make a salary floor, and you do still have to gather talent, even non-elite talent, in order to prepare for subsequent success.

 

[Shaman464]

What do you mean by that?

The 2016 draft has a lot of high risk high reward prospects. Given what was given up to move Datsyuk contract, it could be that this draft goes down as a poor one for the Wings.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

I think you should look at the contract construction of 'tanking' teams.

Colorado has 3 long contracts, Vancouver has a couple, Arizona has a couple, Buffalo has 3, NJ has 3, Carolina has 2 or 3.

As others have said, you do still have to make a salary floor, and you do still have to gather talent, even non-elite talent, in order to prepare for subsequent success.

Colorado contracts longer than 3 years.

Mackinnon age 21
Landeskog age 24
Erik Johnson age 28
Tyson Barrie age 25

Vancouver is a horrible example because their GM is basically the western conference equivalent of Ken Holland.

In Carolina, the majority of their long term deals belong to players 25 and younger.

NJ actually has five, but then again, most of their long term contracts belong to their best players. Schneider, Zajac, Hall

Arizona only has one contract on the books that is longer than four years.

But the bigger point being, their long term contracts are given to their best players and are typically bridge deals where the organization banks on those players significantly outperforming their contracts in the long run.

Wings don't fit the criteria for a "tanking team." They do fit the criteria for a poorly managed team.

Also, two of the four teams you mentioned are 29th and 30th in spending. Arizona would also be very close to the cap floor if it weren't for Pronger and Datsyuk.

Vancouver is middle of the pack in spending.

Colorado is up there.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Colorado contracts longer than 3 years.

Mackinnon age 21
Landeskog age 24
Erik Johnson age 28
Tyson Barrie age 25

Vancouver is a horrible example because their GM is basically the western conference equivalent of Ken Holland.

As for NJ and Carolina, the majority of their long term deals belong to players 25 and younger.

Arizona only has one contract on the books that is longer than four years.

But the bigger point being, their long term contracts are given to their best players and are typically bridge deals where the organization banks on those players significantly outperforming their contracts in the long run.

Wings don't fit the criteria for a "tanking team." They do fit the criteria for a poorly managed team.

I don't know if we should be looking to be like the worst teams in the league, the majority of which have been terrible for ages.

 

[Dotter]

The 2016 draft has a lot of high risk high reward prospects. Given what was given up to move Datsyuk contract, it could be that this draft goes down as a poor one for the Wings.

I've seen nothing from a credible source that says Jacob Chychrun is going to have a better NHL career than Dennis Cholowski. Flip a coin.

From what I understand Jacob Chychrun wasn't the guy on the top of DRWs list to draft. Cholowski was. Regardless, it's premature conversation at this point.

 

[Shaman464]

I've seen nothing from a credible source that says Jacob Chychrun is going to have a better NHL career than Dennis Cholowski. Flip a coin.

From what I understand Jacob Chychrun wasn't the guy on the top of DRWs list to draft. Cholowski was. Regardless, it's premature conversation at this point.

I would say the fact that he went higher in the draft was a pretty good indication of at least some credible people thinking that he will have a better career. And I never said that Cholowski wouldn't have a better career than Chychrun, but that the risk inherent in drafting him was pretty high. If he doesn't pan out, then this draft is likely a bust.

 

[Frk It]

I would say the fact that he went higher in the draft was a pretty good indication of that. And I never said that Cholowski wouldn't have a better career than Chychrun, but that the risk inherent in drafting him was pretty high. If he doesn't pan out, then this draft is likely a bust.

I don't see any reason this draft class is likelier to bust than the 5 draft classes before it, even if our first pick wasn't my ideal pick.

Larkin was the flipside of the equation. Seemed like a safe pick. And then he went on to devleop in a huge way.

It's way too early to say.

 

[Heaton]

I think you should look at the contract construction of 'tanking' teams.

Colorado has 3 long contracts, Vancouver has a couple, Arizona has a couple, Buffalo has 3, NJ has 3, Carolina has 2 or 3.

As others have said, you do still have to make a salary floor, and you do still have to gather talent, even non-elite talent, in order to prepare for subsequent success.

You can meet the floor without lifetime deals.

 

[The Zermanator]

You can meet the floor without lifetime deals.

Exactly. If you're going to overpay, do it on 1 yr contracts.

Holland signed these players thinking they would continue his precious streak. Not because he needed players to reach the cap floor. The streak is over, and now we're stuck with them.

 

[Claypool]

You can meet the floor without lifetime deals.

You think NHL players in free agency are going to flock to Detroit on one-year deals? What player would want to ruin their career doing that? You'll get guys like Steve Ott best case scenario. So what you're saying is you're fine with paying Steve $5 million for one season every year until this team is good?

 

[Pavels Dog]

You can meet the floor without lifetime deals.

Very rarely do you easily find players and people comparable to Abby and Helm in FA signing 1 or 2 year deals. You get the Ott/Miller variety, maybe the occasional Vanek/Semin-reclamation project, maybe a Quincey.

I don't even know what people are complaining about anymore. Kids are playing, team is on track for a top 5 pick, what's wrong? Sproul sitting instead of Lashoff is silly, but hardly a big deal since we're going to get Liljegren or someone if this continues and Sproul isn't going to be the #1D of the future. Might be nice if Mrazek played more but on the other hand Howard's trade value is rebounding nicely. And hardly anyone down in GR is even worth thinking about right now.

Is it just that the kids could play a few more minutes?

 

[obey86]

Very rarely do you easily find players and people comparable to Abby and Helm in FA signing 1 or 2 year deals. You get the Ott/Miller variety, maybe the occasional Vanek/Semin-reclamation project, maybe a Quincey.

I don't even know what people are complaining about anymore. Kids are playing, team is on track for a top 5 pick, what's wrong? Sproul sitting instead of Lashoff is silly, but hardly a big deal since we're going to get Liljegren or someone if this continues and Sproul isn't going to be the #1D of the future. Might be nice if Mrazek played more but on the other hand Howard's trade value is rebounding nicely. And hardly anyone down in GR is even worth thinking about right now.

Is it just that the kids could play a few more minutes?

Yeah I don't get what everyone is complaining about either. This is basically what everyone wanted....a really bad team with a high draft pick. Well, they're getting it.

And I know people will point to the bad long term contracts but who cares? If the wings are bad and acquiring top picks for a few years by the time they are really to compete for the playoffs again (4-5 years down the road minimum using the Buffalo Sabres timeline who "did it the right way") the bad contracts won't be as bad or will be gone.