Post-Game Talk: i don't like this team right now (Mod warning post #93)

[SoupGuru]

I know 2 things about Dekeyser:

1) He can't play on a top pairing
2) He can't play on a power play

So that makes him either a #3 or a #4. They are pretty much interchangeable to me.

I think it's funny you think if we fix the offense it would fix the defense. When the exact oppsosite seems far more likely to be the case and why Holland has been chasing defenseman in trade for years but not forwards.

I get so sick and tired of the defense being the scapegoat around here. Get scored on too much? Defense's fault. Can't score enough? Defense's fault. Larkin backhanding blind passes through the middle of the ice in his own zone? Defense's fault. Tatar gets knocked off the puck again? Defense's fault. Passing through 4 sticks instead of taking a shot from the slot? Defense's fault. Can't hit the ****ing net? Defense's fault.

This team needs help for sure, but I'd start up front. I mean, Spare Part Vanek looks like a ****ing all star on this team.

 

[obey86]

DK is better than Quincey. Come on, that is just a bad comparison.

DK having a bad season doesn't negate what we have seen in previous ones. He is a stable, good (not average) defensive defenseman who is young.

Dekeyser may be better overall because he's a better skater ..... but there really isn't a huge difference overall. Both are worthless in the offensive zone, both are average to above average defensively. You could probably argue that Quincey is better defensively actually due his strength and physicality while Dekeyser is consistently getting beat in the corners and is bad net front.

Just saying, i'd rather have Quincey for 1 year at 1.5 million or whatever it is than Dekeyser at 5 million/year for 6 years. Both are easily replaceable parts with the free agents on the market every season.

 

[obey86]

I don't get the DeKeyser hate. He is not getting outplayed by Green defensively. That's laughable. He's not a #4. Do you guys really think Lidstrom is the yardstick for what a #1 should be?

This team is playing like **** now. This board is obsessed with our defense and it's getting a little ridiculous. Fix the offense and a lot of our defensive issues go away. I honestly don't know what games you guys are watching sometimes. Our breakouts are fine. Sure, sometimes we get pinned in our own zone but what team doesn't? No, a lot of our issues start a neutral ice, inability to gain the zone, and turning the puck over as soon as their defense so much as looks at our small forwards.

Here's an idea: let's gain the zone with possession, use our teammates, generate quality shots, and retrieve the ****ing puck once in a while and generate secondary scoring chances and DeKeyser and Green will look like Norris candidates.

It's hard to do that when 5/6 of your defensemen are terrible in the offensive zone and have bad point shots to boot.

 

[sureWhyNot]

Agreed.

In all the frustration it's easy to think that Holland is actively trying to screw this team or has some devious plan against the wishes of Wings fans. I don't know the guy but I'm certain he has a deep love for the franchise and the people in it. He's been a great GM for most of his tenure.

I think Holland just isn't the right GM for where this team is at anymore.

I can get bogged down in arguments about the current state of the team but my biggest criticism of Holland is not having a better transition plan for the post-Lidstrom era. There's no replacing Lidstrom but that doesn't mean you don't have some semblance of a plan other than going all in on Suter.

Rafalski retired early but he was going to in another season or two anyway. Stuart was a known issue. And Lids wasn't gonna play forever. But Holland seemed totally unprepared for these events and the team hasn't recovered.

This. You couldn't be more right.

 

[SoupGuru]

It's hard to do that when 5/6 of your defensemen are terrible in the offensive zone and have bad point shots to boot.

Exactly my point. Our offensive issues are blamed on the defense.

The Wings defense didn't rinse the dishes before putting them in the dishwasher.

The Wings defense closed all my Chrome tabs.

The Wings defense used the last of the toilet paper and didn't replace the roll.

 

[Frk It]

Exactly my point. Our offensive issues are blamed on the defense.

The Wings defense didn't rinse the dishes before putting them in the dishwasher.

The Wings defense closed all my Chrome tabs.

The Wings defense used the last of the toilet paper and didn't replace the roll.

This isn't football. The defenders also play offense.

 

[SoupGuru]

This isn't football. The defenders also play offense.

But the forwards aren't responsible for playing defense, I assume

 

[Syckle78]

But the forwards aren't responsible for playing defense, I assume

I don't know what you've been reading but forwards get called out plenty for defensive gaffs. All your strawmen aside,the defense being so bad is a contributing factor to the offense struggling. The defense unit as a whole is trash but so is the offensive unit. Plenty of blame has been laid at the feet of the forwards this year and last so not exactly sure where your beef comes from.

 

[Frk It]

But the forwards aren't responsible for playing defense, I assume

And why would you assume that? Datsyuk and Z were some of the most complete forwards in the league the last 10-15 years and were lauded on this board for their defensive play routinely.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Dekeyser may be better overall because he's a better skater ..... but there really isn't a huge difference overall. Both are worthless in the offensive zone, both are average to above average defensively. You could probably argue that Quincey is better defensively actually due his strength and physicality while Dekeyser is consistently getting beat in the corners and is bad net front.

Just saying, i'd rather have Quincey for 1 year at 1.5 million or whatever it is than Dekeyser at 5 million/year for 6 years. Both are easily replaceable parts with the free agents on the market every season.

There is a reason Quincey went for such a low price.

I find your assessment of these two players to be very inaccurate.

 

[19 for president]

This team is built in a very flawed manner. We have the offense to play a quick counter strike offense, but our defense isn't skilled enough to get the pucks up quickly to the forwards and give them odd man rushes. Our defense is ok defensively, and if the Wings had a forward group that had size and could cycle the puck well, this could work ok too. But our forward group is largely one and done offensively.

People complain about the D because unlike the offense it is clearly lacking in the pieces department. Nyquist, Larkin, Mantha, Helm, AA, Glenny, and even Sheahan are really solid skaters and have offensive skill. Even guys like Abby & Tats could be a person here or there. Those are all good pieces. In contrast the D is basically Green & DD. Both of whom are playing above where they should be. DD isn't super skilled offensively but he could be a rock on a 2nd pair, but isn't really 1st pair dman. Guys like XO, Marchy, Big E can all play well enough defensively, but they are going to contribute zero on the offensive side. Sproul might get there offensively but he is a 3rd pairing dman at this point.

 

[Wood Stick]

Speaking of Q, he's at 9 points thus far and has only taken 7 minor penalties. Seems to be having a rather good year on paper in NJ.

 

[The Zermanator]

But the forwards aren't responsible for playing defense, I assume

Is this team having a harder time scoring goals, or preventing them?

Team D is not the biggest issue right now. Team O is a huge issue because the D contributes nearly nothing. And it's been that way for years. They barely contribute in the O zone at all, and they have serious issues transitioning to offense and getting the puck out of our zone. The forwards can't score goals if they're backchecking all game.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Happy memories flashback:


Ah the glorious days of amazing skill and puck support.
Note that is against Keith, Seabrook, Toews, and Kane.

 

[SoupGuru]

Is this team having a harder time scoring goals, or preventing them?

Team D is not the biggest issue right now. Team O is a huge issue because the D contributes nearly nothing. And it's been that way for years. They barely contribute in the O zone at all, and they have serious issues transitioning to offense and getting the puck out of our zone. The forwards can't score goals if they're backchecking all game.

Again, you're using the defense as a scapegoat. It's getting to ridiculous levels.

Explain, if you will, how much back checking our forwards are doing on the power play that makes is suck so bad?

 

[obey86]

There is a reason Quincey went for such a low price.

I find your assessment of these two players to be very inaccurate.

I find your assessment of these two players to be very inaccurate.

Quincey isn't good. Neither is Dekeyser. Both aren't good offensively. Quincey is at least physical on defense while Dekeyser is a better skater. There is a negligible difference between the two players. Neither move the needle of the team.

 

[obey86]

Speaking of Q, he's at 9 points thus far and has only taken 7 minor penalties. Seems to be having a rather good year on paper in NJ.

Better than Dekeyser that's for sure.

Quincey for 1.5M/ 1 year >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeKeyser for 5M/6 years

 

[Winger98]

Q's also had the luxury of being sheltered in NJ, something he wouldn't have here, and which Dekeyser still doesn't enjoy the luxury of. If the Wings were deep enough on D to knock Dekeyser back to 15 minutes and change a night, I think he'd probably look quite a bit better.

 

[The Zermanator]

Again, you're using the defense as a scapegoat. It's getting to ridiculous levels.

Explain, if you will, how much back checking our forwards are doing on the power play that makes is suck so bad?

The D may not be the only problem, the position this team is in proves that, but it is and has been by far the biggest on-ice issue for this team for years now. Many people had commented on here before the rough patch started how deep our forwards were thinking we could roll three scoring lines. When was the last time anyone said anything, even if it would have been wrong, about the depth on D? It doesn't even cross people's minds because it's so far from the truth. We have Ericsson who was finally looking decent because he was playing on the 3rd pair. He was on our first pair for quite a while.

As to your 2nd question, who keeps the puck in the O zone on the PP? The forwards may not be backchecking but they won't exactly score goals if they're retrieving the puck from their end either.

There is no area on this team that doesn't have serious wrinkles. But the thin and low on talent D corps has been far and away the biggest problem for several years.

 

[TheMule93]

Happy memories flashback:


Ah the glorious days of amazing skill and puck support.
Note that is against Keith, Seabrook, Toews, and Kane.

Every wings player on the ice right there is better than anyone on our team right now, except maybe homer

 

[Reddwit]

Speaking of Q, he's at 9 points thus far and has only taken 7 minor penalties. Seems to be having a rather good year on paper in NJ.

New Jersey is a low expectation team and being signed to a cheap deal late in the season is a low expectation offer. There's a good argument that he did well in LA and Colorado because of those low expectations/visibility and his performance in Detroit matches that - he was terrible in his first 1.2 seasons here, when he was traded for a pretty penny with high expectations, but once the stakes were massively lowered upon his (very questionable) re-signing, he played much better.

And signing him would've been redundant. Our main chink in the armor continues to be the top pairing, and Dekeyser faltering there wouldn't be remedied by Quincey. Not that that was your point - just getting out ahead of the debate.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Every wings player on the ice right there is better than anyone on our team right now, except maybe homer

Homer is better then half the team right now

He got like 30-50 points a season and usually 20 goals? Was that because of the team? Probably. But he also missed out on a ton because the goals got called back or he never touched the puck before screening the goalie. People overrate screening the goalie on this team just because of holmstrom though it's not important at all unless you're good at it. Holland will sign players just to be net front even if they're trash

 

[Reddwit]

Homer is better then half the team right now

He got like 30-50 points a season and usually 20 goals? Was that because of the team? Probably. But he also missed out on a ton because the goals got called back or he never touched the puck before screening the goalie. People overrate screening the goalie on this team just because of holmstrom though it's not important at all unless you're good at it. Holland will sign players just to be net front even if they're trash

Couldn't agree more. Drives me nuts how we employ people in front of the net post-Homer. He had a gift. He was amazing at what he did. Cleary couldn't do it. Franzen couldn't do it. Bert Sr. couldn't. Sheahan, Abby and Glen couldn't do it. In fact, they didn't even know where to start.

People used to talk about Vanek in the same breath as Homer when it came to deflections, but they aren't comparable. Being net-facing, outside the blue, waiting for the puck was not Homer's game. For my money, the only other guys I saw play Homer's game and play it well were Dino and Smyth.

Homer was a gift. He may not have been traditionally/conventionally talented, but there's a reason no one has even come close to doing what he did. He was so brilliant in his form and it pretty much because of his legacy that I've warmed up to Mantha so much - we finally have another guy that can do so much without touching the puck.

 

[HockeyinHD]

That's an awful long post generalizing and reading the minds of people here. Must be nice to know what strangers are thinking and feeling all the time.

You should read what people are actually saying. What I wrote was merely a distillation of a huge portion of the agitated fanbases comments.

They either want the team to be good now, or to rebuild now. They hate the in between. This is said ad infinitum ad nauseum in 80% of the game threads.

 

[HockeyinHD]

But Holland seemed totally unprepared for these events and the team hasn't recovered.

How far in advance would I have to tell you your dog would die, your house would explode, someone would steal your girlfriend and you'd get fired in order for you to prepare in such a manner as to experience no upheaval and/or no loss in overall happiness from those events?

Here's the point: there's no amount of preparation, there's no plan, there's no Machiavellian sequence of strategies... there's nothing that can shield a team from the upheaval and slide that losing franchise, HoF-level guy after franchise, HoF-level guy indefinitely brings with it.

If it's "just" losing Lidstrom to decline and departure, maybe. If it's "just" losing Datsyuk to decline, maybe. If it's "just" losing Bowman, maybe. But it wasn't. It was all of those things and more, loss after loss after loss year after year after year. And not just huge, elite pieces... but also integral second (or third) tier players like Draper, like Homer, like McCarty. Guys who had a cohesive value that went beyond their abilities.

By all rights Detroit's run should have ended around 2010. The wheels should have come off the franchise with Lidstrom declining and nearing retirement, the last bit of connective tissue to the greatness of the franchises run stretching and weakening. Like pretty much every other team after a run, Detroit should have sunk into the weeds for 3-4 years. But they didn't. They kept winning (a little).

At the end of the day, people are wrong about why they hate Holland. They don't hate him because they think he stinks. They hate him because he's been too good. If he were a worse GM they'd have been much happier with the state of the team (and by extension Holland himself) because the rebuild put off since 2011 would have already happened and be nearing completion, or perhaps already done.