Post-Game Talk: i don't like this team right now (Mod warning post #93)

[Syckle78]

The point is a lot of folks were calling for Holland to tank this past offseason (and season's prior). Don't sign players like Helm or Nielsen and simply eat Datsyuk's contract, etc. These very same people are now upset this team is losing, which to me makes no sense. You're getting exactly what you wanted, didn't you? Who cares what the GM's intent was. You're getting the precious loses you so desired. You should be happy. The team is moving in the direction you wanted. You'll get your high draft pick!

Buckle up, though. There's way more losing in the years to come.

Your strawmen are never ending. We're not upset we're losing. We're mad about the direction Holland went in the offseason to create this cluster**** of a roster and cap disaster. The losses? I'm good with those. Bring on moar lossssses!

 

[aar000n]

Interesting.

Jeff Blashill did every single move what most of us, of our messageboard coaches, wanted.

- Glendening off from offensive lines
- Benched Lashoff
- Brought Sproul in
- Did put a kid line Larkin-AA-Mantha together

Result: MOST HORRIBLE EFFORT OF THE SEASON.

- No will power
- No energy
- They did look like they won't care anymore

I hope Blashill get fired and our next coach is somebody from this board, so he can maximize our lottery percentage for 2017 draft.

It's now time to tank. TANK a high pick. Now or never. This is the horror season we have waited since what, 1989?

and now stone hands sheham is up there so you trade crap for crap. how about 2 right handed shots on the power play.
How about not playing a dump and chase hockey style?

 

[HIFE]

Posting "fire Holland, fire Blashill, this team sucks" 50 times per GDT, when there are multiple threads dealing with the same exact topic(s) is getting tiresome. On top of that jumping on anyone who dares disagree or even have optimism is taking it to a whole new level. Not to mention "fire the GM/coach" and "this team sucks" aren't exactly constructive criticisms. They're just an outpouring of emotion. And, yeah, I get it. People are upset and unhappy. Got the message loud and clear ... 11 billion posts ago.

Sounds like you should stay off the internet for the next couple years! Seriously I hear you. Reading multiple sources (Ansar, Malik, etc.) and the thousands of comments on social media, fans are bluntly (and crudely) speaking their minds about coach, players, mangement and owners. It's impossible to ignore. The posts can get a bit moronic but we all have an opinion. There's a great quote, "the voice of the people is the voice of God". I'm open to listening but there are times I turn it off, it's up to you.

Funny Mickey brought this up tonight- the anger displayed recently within social media . He told viewers that regardless of losing games these players were human beings. Visiting a children's hospital reminds us there are more pressing issues in life. He also gave his opinion it's not the coaches job to motivate a player to come to the rink and play. Interesting he and Ozzy both alluded to the fact "it" (the ability to win) may or may not be there and that the next 4 games will decide that.

 

[Red Stanley]

Your strawmen are never ending. We're not upset we're losing. We're mad about the direction Holland went in the offseason to create this cluster**** of a roster and cap disaster. The losses? I'm good with those. Bring on moar lossssses!

I wager you'd still be upset if we were leading the division, because it's your way or the highway. That's why the complaining will never end until you get together, consolidate your ideas, elect representatives for coaching/management and get them hired. This is not a joke. I'm being completely serious. Has it been successfully attempted before? I don't know, but it'd be interesting to see in action.

 

[HIFE]

Interesting.

Jeff Blashill did every single move what most of us, of our messageboard coaches, wanted.

- Glendening off from offensive lines
- Benched Lashoff
- Brought Sproul in
- Did put a kid line Larkin-AA-Mantha together

Result: MOST HORRIBLE EFFORT OF THE SEASON.

- No will power
- No energy
- They did look like they won't care anymore

I hope Blashill get fired and our next coach is somebody from this board, so he can maximize our lottery percentage for 2017 draft.

It's now time to tank. TANK a high pick. Now or never. This is the horror season we have waited since what, 1989?

I dig your argument because I strongly believe the weakness lies much more within Holland's roster compared to coaching. But the bolded parts? Most horrible effort of the season??? Dude the effort was there. The kid line especially Larkin and AA, Nielsen, Green, Nyquist, the 4th line...skated their balls off. You could say Tatar was thrown around like a rag-doll but not that he didn't have energy. Sproul played like his life depended upon it. They cared a lot, at least until the 4th goal. Problem is the Wings are not good enough hockey players, simple as that.

 

[Red Stanley]

Sounds like you should stay off the internet for the next couple years! Seriously I hear you. Reading multiple sources (Ansar, Malik, etc.) and the thousands of comments on social media, fans are bluntly (and crudely) speaking their minds about coach, players, mangement and owners. It's impossible to ignore. The posts can get a bit moronic but we all have an opinion. There's a great quote, "the voice of the people is the voice of God". I'm open to listening but there are times I turn it off, it's up to you.

Funny Mickey brought this up tonight- the anger displayed recently within social media . He told viewers that regardless of losing games these players were human beings. Visiting a children's hospital reminds us there are more pressing issues in life. He also gave his opinion it's not the coaches job to motivate a player to come to the rink and play. Interesting he and Ozzy both alluded to the fact "it" (the ability to win) may or may not be there and that the next 4 games will decide that.

It's worth noting that BOS, FL and TOR all lost tonight. Everyone in our division, save MTL, sucks. 30 games in, no real separation. The race for who sucks least continues!

 

[Shaman464]

Another problem is that a lot of the players that management thought would be the next great wave of talent aren't that great. Tatar and Nyquist both have shown flashes, but they both can't be the guy, and when asked to be they get eaten alive by strong opponents. AA is okay, but his speed gets negated when teams box him out, so he's looking to Helm with decent hands. Larkin will be a top 6 center, but without talent around him, it's hard to tell. No one on the defense is inspiring any confidence.

So it just seems Holland banked on his rough becoming diamonds, and that just doesn't seem to be panning out.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

It's worth noting that BOS, FL and TOR all lost tonight. Everyone in our division, save MTL, sucks. 30 games in, no real separation. The race for who sucks least continues!

Sorry man. At this point we're only playing better then New Jersey

But we've lost a lot. So winning is coming. Probably moves us ahead of buffalo

 

[smurfyeah19]

I'm probably a little more optimistic here as it seems many of you see the world burning right now, but as someone who grew up playing defense I think what's killing us is our absolute lack of size. Watching tonight's game we physically got pummeled and don't have any big guys that can set up screens in the slot in the offensive zone leading to easy goals which is causing our PP to be complete crap.

We've always had great skill and still do, but we also had guys like Holmstrom, McCarty and Franzen who would camp in front, collapse their D and open up space in the zone. Now we don't and teams attack us very aggressively, especially on the PP and we're getting slaughtered. It takes a good mix of physicality and speed, right now we don't have that balance and look like crap

 

[silkyjohnson50]

We've always had great skill and still do, but we also had guys like Holmstrom, McCarty and Franzen who would camp in front

"We've always had great skill and still do." Not quite. There's been a massive drop off. We went from prime Yzerman/Fedorov to prime Datsyuk/Zetterberg to ?

We had an elite 1-2 center punch down the middle for far longer than teams can dream of. We were beyond fortunate and now that is simply gone. Our best players up front were our most skilled yet most compete for nearly two decades. We were spoiled, but no longer.

Holmstrom and McCarty and Franzen were great role players for us, but they became important because we had the 2-headed monsters as the centerpiece. Without those 4, the others really wouldn't have mattered.

Contending teams do need a great mix of players up front that bring skill, speed, size, etc. But the most important thing is flat out talent. Your best players have to be your best players and more often than not your best players have to be elite talents.

 

[Reddwit]

Can you imagine how much it must suck to be playing for this team right now? I mean, losing is one thing, but the stats? The few guys who are producing probably feel like they're getting no help and everyone else probably feels like they have to run themselves ragged for a few games just to scrape up a point. Our GF/G is 29th in the NHL and our PP is 29th as well. Only Buffalo is worse than us offensively but at least they can boast about having a top 5 PP. Just terrible all around.

 

[CanadaIsIrrelevant]

Thankfully I quit my subscription of Viaplay NHL.
Not going to watch this team at all this season.

 

[Pavels Dog]

You know the people calling for a tank are also the same people who want an actual rebuild, not just tanking for the sake of tanking. That means no long term ******** contracts to Abby and Helm.

It's absolutely ridiculous to think those contracts matter if this is the direction of the franchise. By the time this team has clawed it's way up from the bottom of the league through top 5-10 picks and the young core is starting to get big money, Abdelkader and Helm are more likely to be working as announcers or assistant coaches than they are to be playing hockey still.
You need to reach the cap floor, always. Ideally, you have SOME support to your young players so they're not completely hung out to dry, and that support will also make it quicker to become somewhat competitive if your young players break out (I will here make a note that Helm and Abby have been out injured, coinciding with the worst stretch of hockey this team has played in 25 years).

This is what losing looks like. THIS is when you decide if you blow it up or not. You don't blow it up when you're in the playoffs. This is the time. Ideally, we see a coaching change very very soon. But if that doesn't move the needle, yeah we need to blow it up. This is what people have been asking for, to say otherwise is disingenious. No GM has ever blown up and tanked a perennial playoff team.

So in two seasons they'll have $50 million in committed salary, which assumes Zetterberg and Kronwall are still playing (they won't be). So really they'll have $40 million in cap space. The only long-term contracts are Nielsen, Abdelkader, Helm, DeKeyser, and Glendening. Seems pretty good to me. Where's the problem?

There isn't one. If we're going to suck for the next 5 years, Abby and Helm and Nielsen will help us reach the cap floor. No young player will get a good contract in a system where we score the least goals in the NHL. Green will be gone, Howard will be gone, Kronwall and Z will retire, Vanek will be gone, Tatar and Nyquist can be moved for picks.

People who complain about the contracts don't have a good grasp of what actually happens when you decide to tank. They think Larkin and Mrazek and Tatar and Mantha and AA and so on will get huge contracts while we are somehow landing top 5 pick after top 5 pick. Hint: everyone looks terrible on a team like this, players are cheap under those circumstances.

 

[Heaton]

People who complain about the contracts don't have a good grasp of what actually happens when you decide to tank. They think Larkin and Mrazek and Tatar and Mantha and AA and so on will get huge contracts while we are somehow landing top 5 pick after top 5 pick. Hint: everyone looks terrible on a team like this, players are cheap under those circumstances.

Tanking teams don't sign role players to 7 year deals though dude. They get rid of those contracts. They may sign vets to get to the cap floor, but they don't clog their rosters with players like that for 6-7 years, it goes against what a youth movement is.

This isn't a roster created on purpose to lose, that's what a tanking roster is. Look at Toronto, they got rid of all of their long term deals (for the most part) and went with some lesser term veterans.

 

[Winger98]

Tanking teams don't sign role players to 7 year deals though dude. They get rid of those contracts. They may sign vets to get to the cap floor, but they don't clog their rosters with players like that for 6-7 years, it goes against what a youth movement is.

This isn't a roster created on purpose to lose, that's what a tanking roster is. Look at Toronto, they got rid of all of their long term deals (for the most part) and went with some lesser term veterans.

Yeah, pretty much a worst case scenario for Holland right now. I can't imagine anyone in that front office was looking at this as a club that could contend for the Cup, but worst in the league? Had to be considered equally unlikely given the contracts they've handed out.

Now, I'm not sure we can get out from under them and starting to buy them out won't exactly be a big help when guys like Gator or Helm will then be on the books for like 8 or 12 years then. We're going to end up having to ride them out a bit and trying to move them for deals that aren't quite as bad.

Another problem is that a lot of the players that management thought would be the next great wave of talent aren't that great. Tatar and Nyquist both have shown flashes, but they both can't be the guy, and when asked to be they get eaten alive by strong opponents. AA is okay, but his speed gets negated when teams box him out, so he's looking to Helm with decent hands. Larkin will be a top 6 center, but without talent around him, it's hard to tell. No one on the defense is inspiring any confidence.

So it just seems Holland banked on his rough becoming diamonds, and that just doesn't seem to be panning out.

Yeah, someone posted our 1st round picks for a five year stretch and two years we didn't pick in the first round and our three picks were Kindl, McCollum, and Smith. I don't know if we traded down those couple of years, but that's still five years of failure at the top of our draft board. That is the sorta stuff that kills you.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Tanking teams don't sign role players to 7 year deals though dude. They get rid of those contracts. They may sign vets to get to the cap floor, but they don't clog their rosters with players like that for 6-7 years, it goes against what a youth movement is.

This isn't a roster created on purpose to lose, that's what a tanking roster is. Look at Toronto, they got rid of all of their long term deals (for the most part) and went with some lesser term veterans.

Toronto was a different scenario, when they started their scorched earth approach they didn't have any veteran with the kind of leadership/work-ethic that Helm/Abby have. They needed to completely clear out most of the organization in order to establish an entirely new culture. Even in the most pessimistic view of the Wings franchise and the most anti-Holland, anti-Illitches perspective it's hard to argue that the Wings don't have anything that's worth trying to retain and pass on.
You could dump Helm and Abby and sign short-term veterans to 1-2 year contracts every year for the next 5+ years, but if you have the option to keep guys you know are solid character guys why not do it? Those guys are solid support players on a good team, and on a terrible team like this they can at least help pass on good habits to the kids.

I hardly think either of them is untradeable either if it comes to that. Especially Helm should be pretty easily moved. But we can clear out tons of cap space in other ways the coming years. All the talk about how we have the highest payroll is misleading, we trade Green and we're among the lowest.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

Time to really start watching the 2017 draft class.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

"We've always had great skill and still do." Not quite. There's been a massive drop off. We went from prime Yzerman/Fedorov to prime Datsyuk/Zetterberg to ?

We had an elite 1-2 center punch down the middle for far longer than teams can dream of. We were beyond fortunate and now that is simply gone. Our best players up front were our most skilled yet most compete for nearly two decades. We were spoiled, but no longer.

Holmstrom and McCarty and Franzen were great role players for us, but they became important because we had the 2-headed monsters as the centerpiece. Without those 4, the others really wouldn't have mattered.

Contending teams do need a great mix of players up front that bring skill, speed, size, etc. But the most important thing is flat out talent. Your best players have to be your best players and more often than not your best players have to be elite talents.

Not to mention Lidstrom and some other good defenders through that time like Vladdy, Rafalski, Murphy, Chelios etc

 

[avssuc]

Every loss, I'm like:

I don't know why folks are so bent, this is what they need. The Wings had a historic run, got drunk on the success, and are now coming back to Earth.

Just be glad none of you were of the 12 people in attendance last night. After the Kings scored 3 seconds in, you knew it was gona he ugly.

 

[Heaton]

Toronto was a different scenario, when they started their scorched earth approach they didn't have any veteran with the kind of leadership/work-ethic that Helm/Abby have. They needed to completely clear out most of the organization in order to establish an entirely new culture. Even in the most pessimistic view of the Wings franchise and the most anti-Holland, anti-Illitches perspective it's hard to argue that the Wings don't have anything that's worth trying to retain and pass on.
You could dump Helm and Abby and sign short-term veterans to 1-2 year contracts every year for the next 5+ years, but if you have the option to keep guys you know are solid character guys why not do it? Those guys are solid support players on a good team, and on a terrible team like this they can at least help pass on good habits to the kids.

I hardly think either of them is untradeable either if it comes to that. Especially Helm should be pretty easily moved. But we can clear out tons of cap space in other ways the coming years. All the talk about how we have the highest payroll is misleading, we trade Green and we're among the lowest.

And that's there's the rub, if it were just Helm and Abdelkader, people wouldn't complain as much. But it's Helm, Abdelkader, Ericsson, Howard, AND Nielsen (anyone else I'm missing?) If Holland traded 3 or 4 of those guys, great! We're on the right track.

I also wanted to reiterate that I know that using the word 'tank' kinda encompasses a lot of what some people are hoping for, but my definition of tank is to intentionally lose, I've never advocated that. I know I'm just repeating myself, but I want a true youth movement and all of the frustrations involved. I don't want to see Glendening on the 2nd line getting 15+ minutes a game. I don't want to see Sproul scratched for Lashoff. I want to see our young guys, given a chance to see what they have. I don't believe that's truly ever happened and I understand the confidence thing, but we don't have the luxury of sheltering these guys anymore.

So if this youth movement comes with a top 5 pick, cool. But intentionally losing? Nah. I know to some that may be one in the same, but it's not for me.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Agreed. I think we're going to see a coaching change sooner rather than later; I'd be really surprised if Blashill is around when the New Year rolls around.

Couldn't agree more Soup, I think this team is losing faith in Blashill. It pretty much shows in their play. Holland has us up against the cap with what i call a pretty mediocre team just to many bad contracts here. Torts has the Blue Jackets kicking on all cylinders we need a Coach that will light a fire under this club.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Once abdelkader is back wings will start destroying teams

Sounding like Helm will be back by the end of the month, Hopefully Abdelkader will be following shortly there after if not before.

 

[njx9]

I hardly think either of them is untradeable either if it comes to that. Especially Helm should be pretty easily moved. But we can clear out tons of cap space in other ways the coming years. All the talk about how we have the highest payroll is misleading, we trade Green and we're among the lowest.

I agree that nothing is truly untradeable, but I guess I see it like this: if Abbie and Helm and Nielsen and Howard (and whoever else) were on 1-2 year deals, we could probably move them for assets. They're all valuable players to teams that already have a bunch of talent and just need that one extra piece, or that one guy for a Cup run. Instead, if we want to clear their contracts, we're going to, likely, have to give up something (even if it's only return value). Or we're going to lose them for nothing in expansion.

It's clear this roster wasn't built to tank, and that it's happening incidentally. It just sucks that we probably have a fair amount of rebuilding value tied up in contracts that reduce that value.

I also think any concerns about the cap itself are overblown, but I think most people are just frustrated that we clearly spent up to be competitive and failed, not that Illitch is paying guys a lot of money this year.

 

[ap3x]

Anyone thinking the next game may have consequences for Blash? I do not.

 

[The Zermanator]

And that's there's the rub, if it were just Helm and Abdelkader, people wouldn't complain as much. But it's Helm, Abdelkader, Ericsson, Howard, AND Nielsen (anyone else I'm missing?) If Holland traded 3 or 4 of those guys, great! We're on the right track.

I also wanted to reiterate that I know that using the word 'tank' kinda encompasses a lot of what some people are hoping for, but my definition of tank is to intentionally lose, I've never advocated that. I know I'm just repeating myself, but I want a true youth movement and all of the frustrations involved. I don't want to see Glendening on the 2nd line getting 15+ minutes a game. I don't want to see Sproul scratched for Lashoff. I want to see our young guys, given a chance to see what they have. I don't believe that's truly ever happened and I understand the confidence thing, but we don't have the luxury of sheltering these guys anymore.

So if this youth movement comes with a top 5 pick, cool. But intentionally losing? Nah. I know to some that may be one in the same, but it's not for me.

I would just say that there's a difference between intentionally losing on the ice and in the front office. On the ice means throwing games, and I don't think that really ever happens. Tanking in the FO just means realizing the team as it's composed is going nowhere but down anyway and putting the team in a position where it can start pulling in some prime assets. The core of the next Championship team, hopefully.

Couldn't agree more Soup, I think this team is losing faith in Blashill. It pretty much shows in their play. Holland has us up against the cap with what i call a pretty mediocre team just to many bad contracts here. Torts has the Blue Jackets kicking on all cylinders we need a Coach that will light a fire under this club.

I agree. Gave Blashill a chance for as long as I could, but it seems painfully obvious with every passing game that the guy is completely under water.