Post-Game Talk: i don't like this team right now (Mod warning post #93)

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Because the wheels are already falling off, I'd say. How much worse does the on-ice product have to get? Not that I think the Wings have to make a decision to tank. I think they're already going down that path, whether they like it or not.

Agreed.

Which is a terrible scenario: if you're going to end up near the bottom of the league you want to do it because you moved assets to accumulate picks and prospects, not by spending up to the cap.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

That's an awful long post generalizing and reading the minds of people here. Must be nice to know what strangers are thinking and feeling all the time.

For me, I've been a fan of the Wings since they were the Dead Things. And I'm still frustrated with the current situation.

I don't think they need to blow it up and tank, but it's not a lot of fun watching a team content with competitive purgatory either. It's not only frustrating in the short term but it means a lot more years spent in that purgatory. By squeezing everything he can out of this current roster to squeak into the playoffs, Holland is leaving the future of the team in an even greater hole with no defense, no franchise players, and no assets.

But I'm guessing his plan is too retire after his contract expires so it'll be someone else's problem.

Interesting logic. Since we are guessing at strangers, I am Guessing a guy that has spent 30+ years within the organization and will likely move to a different role within it cares a little more than how you just characterized him.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Interesting logic. Since we are guessing at strangers, I am Guessing a guy that has spent 30+ years within the organization and will likely move to a different role within it cares a little more than how you just characterized him.

You did see the part about "guessing," right? Unlike the post i was quoting, i wasn't stating as fact what other people were thinking.

I never said he didn't care. I'm not saying he's intentionally doing it to screw the next guy. For all I know it could be a direct from Ilitch. But it's bad long term. And it's gonna be a terrible situation for the next guy to dig out of.


EDIT: Ah, I see how my last sentence could be misconstrued. I didn't mean "the reason he is retiring is so it will be someone else's problem." I meant "he is likely retiring, therefore someone will be replacing him and it will be their problem."

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

You did see the part about "guessing," right? Unlike the post i was quoting, i wasn't stating as fact what other people were thinking.

I never said he didn't care. I'm not saying he's intentionally doing it to screw the next guy. For all I know it could be a direct from Ilitch. But it's bad long term. And it's gonna be a terrible situation for the next guy to dig out of.


EDIT: Ah, I see how my last sentence could be misconstrued. I didn't mean "the reason he is retiring is so it will be someone else's problem." I meant "he is likely retiring, therefore someone will be replacing him and it will be their problem."

We are all guessing at stuff. Some might have friends around the team or things of that nature, but none of us knows with absolute certainty. I am pretty positive that Holland has a deep concern and love for the Detroit Red Wings. I don't think as you said he would intentionally harm this organization ever. I also cannot be positive what the future impact is on this club one way or the other.

The frustration is likely to grow though as finding the answers to the problems that are dragging us down are not going to be easy.

Our D makes it very tough to really get a gauge on certain parts of our team. Now that is absolutely Holland's responsibility and he needs to start fixing that yesterday.

 

[Winger98]

The 6 years to Dekeyser is fine. The 5 million AAV is looking brutal.

He's having a rough year, but I think he looked like a viable $5m a year guy before. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for a bit.

DeKeyser's contract is just as bad as any of the ones we discuss here at length in my opinion. He really is a #4 D-man in terms of talent, so he should be looked at as a role player as well in my opinion.

#4 is still a second pair guy, and I don't think there's much separating him from being a #3. He's having a down year, but so is the team. If we can slot back into a true second pairing spot, I think he'll look like a $5m guy again.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

He's having a rough year, but I think he looked like a viable $5m a year guy before. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for a bit.



#4 is still a second pair guy, and I don't think there's much separating him from being a #3. He's having a down year, but so is the team. If we can slot back into a true second pairing spot, I think he'll look like a $5m guy again.

DeKeyser shouldn't be making more than 4.5 in my opinion, even that is a bit above my taste for what he really is.

While I think he can be the defensive anchor of a second pairing I don't think that makes you a core piece. Stuart wasn't a core piece really, that is basically DK's role if we are a cup contender again.

I do hope his play picks up, DK could play a big role but we are need to slot guys in front of him for him to be a role player or his problems are going to get more and more pronounced in my opinion. Trotting a guy out with almost zero offensive IQ that has trouble in one on one physical battles the amount of times we are doing is not pretty. Hopefully he improves some of those areas, he still does have some growth in him, in particular net-front strength could help DK a ton.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

We are all guessing at stuff. Some might have friends around the team or things of that nature, but none of us knows with absolute certainty. I am pretty positive that Holland has a deep concern and love for the Detroit Red Wings. I don't think as you said he would intentionally harm this organization ever. I also cannot be positive what the future impact is on this club one way or the other.

The frustration is likely to grow though as finding the answers to the problems that are dragging us down are not going to be easy.

Our D makes it very tough to really get a gauge on certain parts of our team. Now that is absolutely Holland's responsibility and he needs to start fixing that yesterday.

Agreed.

In all the frustration it's easy to think that Holland is actively trying to screw this team or has some devious plan against the wishes of Wings fans. I don't know the guy but I'm certain he has a deep love for the franchise and the people in it. He's been a great GM for most of his tenure.

I think Holland just isn't the right GM for where this team is at anymore.

I can get bogged down in arguments about the current state of the team but my biggest criticism of Holland is not having a better transition plan for the post-Lidstrom era. There's no replacing Lidstrom but that doesn't mean you don't have some semblance of a plan other than going all in on Suter.

Rafalski retired early but he was going to in another season or two anyway. Stuart was a known issue. And Lids wasn't gonna play forever. But Holland seemed totally unprepared for these events and the team hasn't recovered.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Agreed.

In all the frustration it's easy to think that Holland is actively trying to screw this team or has some devious plan against the wishes of Wings fans. I don't know the guy but I'm certain he has a deep love for the franchise and the people in it. He's been a great GM for most of his tenure.

I think Holland just isn't the right GM for where this team is at anymore.

I can get bogged down in arguments about the current state of the team but my biggest criticism of Holland is not having a better transition plan for the post-Lidstrom era. There's no replacing Lidstrom but that doesn't mean you don't have some semblance of a plan other than going all in on Suter.

Rafalski retired early but he was going to in another season or two anyway. Stuart was a known issue. And Lids wasn't gonna play forever. But Holland seemed totally unprepared for these events and the team hasn't recovered.

All fair criticism and as someone that was of the belief that Babcock was no longer the voice this team needed, it is hard to argue that Holland's shelf-life looks to have finally run out. I think his hockey knowledge will be important in a different role within the organization but since the summer I have been on board with going after Paul Fenton and moving Holland upstairs.

I am not sure how realistic that is, but there are a couple guys outside of the Wings way of doing things that I am interested in.

Though some people need to think about that as well. I really do like what both Draper and Fischer are doing for instance. What does the culture change we are all calling for really mean? I mean Holland will be upstairs in a Jimmy D kind of role, we can expect that unless he wants to go take over Vancouver or something as GM and continue in a pure GM role. Not sure what the answer is, but I don't want Martin and I don't think Fischer or Draper are ready. But we will likely see the departures of some guys we do like if Ken Holland steps aside and we go outside the organization.

To be clear I prefer the Fenton option with letting the chips fall where they may in terms of him re-organizing our pro scouting department and some of the other positions within. I have not minded what Wright has done so far as our draft guy, but Fenton can have his own should he come over. Really I think our pro-scouting needs a facelift.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Agreed.

Which is a terrible scenario: if you're going to end up near the bottom of the league you want to do it because you moved assets to accumulate picks and prospects, not by spending up to the cap.

Yep, this helps you pull through the suckage quicker than what is going to happen when you have loads of bad contracts that should have been traded at the top of their value. This exact sceanario is why I was pushing for trading Abby, Helm, not giving Howie a NTC during his years when his contract wasn't awful, etc.

The only downside to making those deal is with our track record we probably wouldn't have drafted truly good players. Regardless, it was the proper move. Maybe a guy you get with those draft picks turns into a valuable player, maybe he becomes a role player. Maybe you can in turn trade him to address a need when we are once again good again.

That's how you properly manage assets. To pretend having the most expensive roster in the league as one of the worst teams in league is actually competent management is embarrassing. We used to laugh at teams like New York when they were in this situation.

 

[Winger98]

DeKeyser shouldn't be making more than 4.5 in my opinion, even that is a bit above my taste for what he really is.

While I think he can be the defensive anchor of a second pairing I don't think that makes you a core piece. Stuart wasn't a core piece really, that is basically DK's role if we are a cup contender again.

I do hope his play picks up, DK could play a big role but we are need to slot guys in front of him for him to be a role player or his problems are going to get more and more pronounced in my opinion. Trotting a guy out with almost zero offensive IQ that has trouble in one on one physical battles the amount of times we are doing is not pretty. Hopefully he improves some of those areas, he still does have some growth in him, in particular net-front strength could help DK a ton.

fair enough. I guess I'm guilty of looking at him in comparison to our other contracts. It's not as bad Quincey's deal, arguably better than Ericsson (not this year, but E's turned his play around in a big way). Of the questionable contracts on the team, he comes the closest to justifying it with his play/age that I have a hard time coming down hard on it.

He's also a guy that, if we were able to pull in some upgrades, that I think we'd have a relatively easy time moving. I can't say the same for a number of other deals outside of us taking a problem back or eating a fair chunk of salary to make a deal happen.

 

[Run the Jewels]

He's having a rough year, but I think he looked like a viable $5m a year guy before. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for a bit.

Another thing to keep in mind is every defenseman in the Detroit organization has looked pretty bad under Blashill's leadership. Hell, the majority of the team is seeing it's production plummet over the past two seasons. So I'm more than willing to give DeKeyser the benefit of the doubt. He's our one younger guy who is capable of taking over the cerermonial Andrea Lilja/Jonathan Ericsson spot where he's forced to play above his capabilities due to lack of talent and depth. Then you factor in "the Blashill effect" and it's no wonder he's struggled.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

fair enough. I guess I'm guilty of looking at him in comparison to our other contracts. It's not as bad Quincey's deal, arguably better than Ericsson (not this year, but E's turned his play around in a big way). Of the questionable contracts on the team, he comes the closest to justifying it with his play/age that I have a hard time coming down hard on it.

He's also a guy that, if we were able to pull in some upgrades, that I think we'd have a relatively easy time moving. I can't say the same for a number of other deals outside of us taking a problem back or eating a fair chunk of salary to make a deal happen.

Agree with investing in the right age bracket. I would hope his would be moveable, he is going to have to start playing better for that to be the case though. I wonder if we put him on the blocks what the actual interest and proposals would be, I am guessing a lot of people around here would be very disappointed to find out.

I am hopeful we will see a pickup in his play soon. I do think he needs to seriously think about getting a lot stronger or I am not sure how he is going to get a lot better at his primary role as a defensive d-man. DK gets owned in front of our net a lot.

 

[Dotter]

Yep, this helps you pull through the suckage quicker than what is going to happen when you have loads of bad contracts that should have been traded at the top of their value. This exact sceanario is why I was pushing for trading Abby, Helm, not giving Howie a NTC during his years when his contract wasn't awful, etc.

The only downside to making those deal is with our track record we probably wouldn't have drafted truly good players. Regardless, it was the proper move. Maybe a guy you get with those draft picks turns into a valuable player, maybe he becomes a role player. Maybe you can in turn trade him to address a need when we are once again good again.

That's how you properly manage assets. To pretend having the most expensive roster in the league as one of the worst teams in league is actually competent management is embarrassing. We used to laugh at teams like New York when they were in this situation.

I would rather Helm and Abdelkader around the newly young drafted players to lead by example over random FAs like Radulov's, Riberio's, Alex Semin's, Leino's.

When Wings 'tank' (lack of a better word), they won't attract any quality FAs. The ones they do attract are rejects looking for easy money. That is NOT the type of personalities you want around impressionable newly drafted kids/players. I'd re-sign Dan Cleary before exposing kids to cancer.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I would rather Helm and Abdelkader around the newly young drafted players to lead by example over random FAs like Radulov's, Riberio's, Alex Semin's, Leino's.

When Wings 'tank' (lack of a better word), they won't attract any quality FAs. The ones they do attract are rejects looking for easy money. That is NOT the type of personalities you want around impressionable newly drafted kids/players. I'd re-sign Dan Cleary before exposing kids to cancer.

Not sure how any of that ties into anything I posted but OK. Never mentioned Radulov, Ribiero, Semin, etc. As far as attracting free agents, was Stephen Weiss a good signing? And we still couldn't sign Ryan Suter, even with a playoff streak intact and only a few years removed from a SCF appearance. Again, I said nothing about free agents so I don't know why our recent history makes you think this is a point in your favor.

 

[Wood Stick]

DeKeyser's a 3 not a 4 lol.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

DeKeyser's a 3 not a 4 lol.

DeKeyser is generously playing at a second pairing level right now. He is being outplayed defensively by Mike Green.

Good news is DeKeyser can turn it around and start playing at a level where we can debate that. Heck I hope he can improve to where he is a 2/3 conversation. But I haven't seen him play at a level I really consider better than a #4 in the league in quite some time.

The point is I disagree with entrenching him into the core. He might be the last piece we consider a kind of core piece if we were good and he was slotted correctly. But I don't think he is someone we protect at all costs. We need to find players better than him to push him back down the lineup because he has looked bad since he started to get more responsibility. He is a good hockey player, like most 4-6 guys which is why I slot him in there. Nothing more and nothing less in my opinion.

 

[Winger98]

Not sure how any of that ties into anything I posted but OK. Never mentioned Radulov, Ribiero, Semin, etc. As far as attracting free agents, was Stephen Weiss a good signing? And we still couldn't sign Ryan Suter, even with a playoff streak intact and only a few years removed from a SCF appearance. Again, I said nothing about free agents so I don't know why our recent history makes you think this is a point in your favor.

I think it was more directed at me, and I've outlined an answer to it in another post. Take out Helm and Gator, and we'd still have Ericsson, Kronwall, and Z. Also, signing Miller and Ott to eat up some of the bottom quarter of the roster isn't such a big deal, and would also provide that vet presence (and I don't think any of them could be called lazy).

Also, Nyquist is already 27 and Tatar 26. Helm and Gator are both 29 right now. Some of these guys we're calling "kids" are pretty close to these vets we want setting an example. Really, if Nyquist and/or Tatar are dogging it off the ice, it's time we probably actively cut bait with them regardles if we're concerned with that sort of influence in the lockerroom.

Agree with your point about the streak not really being a great sell for free agents lately.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

DeKeyser is generously playing at a second pairing level right now. He is being outplayed defensively by Mike Green.

Good news is DeKeyser can turn it around and start playing at a level where we can debate that. Heck I hope he can improve to where he is a 2/3 conversation. But I haven't seen him play at a level I really consider better than a #4 in the league in quite some time.

The point is I disagree with entrenching him into the core. He might be the last piece we consider a kind of core piece if we were good and he was slotted correctly. But I don't think he is someone we protect at all costs. We need to find players better than him to push him back down the lineup because he has looked bad since he started to get more responsibility. He is a good hockey player, like most 4-6 guys which is why I slot him in there. Nothing more and nothing less in my opinion.

I think with how far we will have to wait for a real core defensive piece to replace him, DK is really all we got for the next few seasons. That's why I didn't really mind the contract. It's more than he is worth, but we don't have much choice.

 

[Wood Stick]

DeKeyser is generously playing at a second pairing level right now. He is being outplayed defensively by Mike Green.

Good news is DeKeyser can turn it around and start playing at a level where we can debate that. Heck I hope he can improve to where he is a 2/3 conversation. But I haven't seen him play at a level I really consider better than a #4 in the league in quite some time.

The point is I disagree with entrenching him into the core. He might be the last piece we consider a kind of core piece if we were good and he was slotted correctly. But I don't think he is someone we protect at all costs. We need to find players better than him to push him back down the lineup because he has looked bad since he started to get more responsibility. He is a good hockey player, like most 4-6 guys which is why I slot him in there. Nothing more and nothing less in my opinion.

I'm not disagreeing with you. When he got that contract though he was coming off a season being our number 1 defenseman at just 25 years old I think he was. He was our best defensive D and was playing really well on a defensive pairing for like 2.5 years with Kyle Quincey along with chipping in 25 points per. That's a number three D.

Right now he's getting ****ing killed defensively. He's not chipping in offensively either. Mike Green has taken the reigns of this team, and has went with it. With that said we need a legit number one TWD.

It again bumps everyone down. I wish there was a way to get OEL. Before people go there, Trouba is not a number one, more so a number threee. This is going to sound really sketchy but I wonder if we could trade Petr Mrazek for Justin Faulk...

Run a Howard/Lack combo assuming we deal a pick as well. Have Coreau up when Howard is down.

DeKeyser-Faulk
Ericsson-Green
Kronwall-Marchenko
Sproul/XO/Smith - not sure what happens here assuming one is gone.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I'm not disagreeing with you. When he got that contract though he was coming off a season being our number 1 defenseman at just 25 years old I think he was. He was our best defensive D and was playing really well on a defensive pairing for like 2.5 years with Kyle Quincey along with chipping in 25 points per. That's a number three D.

Right now he's getting ****ing killed defensively. He's not chipping in offensively either. Mike Green has taken the reigns of this team, and has went with it. With that said we need a legit number one TWD.

It again bumps everyone down. I wish there was a way to get OEL. Before people go there, Trouba is not a number one, more so a number threee. This is going to sound really sketchy but I wonder if we could trade Petr Mrazek for Justin Faulk...

Run a Howard/Lack combo assuming we deal a pick as well. Have Coreau up when Howard is down.

DeKeyser-Faulk
Ericsson-Green
Kronwall-Marchenko
Sproul/XO/Smith - not sure what happens here assuming one is gone.

Well this strengthens my argument though that DeKeyser isn't a three. Trouba is a better hockey player in every aspect aside from emergency defending (where DeKeyser since he entered the league is one of the better guys in the NHL) in my opinion.

We need to do something about our back-end and in a hurry. This team cannot get better until the back-end is better in my opinion.

The good news as winger pointed out is I still believe DeKeyser's contract is very movable should we go in that direction.

I think he will be here for a long time. I think he is just having a really rough season, because he didn't make the necessary improvements in the off-season. He needs to work on aspects of his game and I think he will. I don't see any offense really coming, but I think we will get a better version of his defensive zone play in the coming seasons.

I guess I am just surprised if he is lol #3 it suggests at least to me that he is a really good one. To me he hasn't been and needs to start making bigger steps for it to at least be hilarious that I cannot place him higher than a #4. That isn't what I am seeing out of DK, but he is far from a lost cause, I just hope we can get more help so he is down the lineup.

I think with how far we will have to wait for a real core defensive piece to replace him, DK is really all we got for the next few seasons. That's why I didn't really mind the contract. It's more than he is worth, but we don't have much choice.

But we kill other contracts around here where that would apply. Abdelkader played above station and doesn't have incredible numbers but he has good enough numbers to be near his contract range. Plays in all situations and so on and so forth. That contact is up for an open season debate but DK's isn't worth talking about?

I get Winger's point that DK is younger and more movable and that I am in full agreement with. But DK isn't playing to his contract, in fact he is one of our worst violators this season in terms of not playing to what his $ amount is. He can be called out and certainly belongs in the conversation of giving too much term and money to a player that isn't necessarily deserving of it.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I would say the replacements for Abdelkader are more than okay compared to those for DK. With only 6 defensive spots it makes those differences between him and cheaper options more of a factor.

 

[obey86]

I would say the replacements for Abdelkader are more than okay compared to those for DK. With only 6 defensive spots it makes those differences between him and cheaper options more of a factor.

I would say zero offense, average defensive players are in abundance on the market every year. Hell, Kyle Quincey fits that bill and got a 1 year deal.

 

[SoupGuru]

I don't get the DeKeyser hate. He is not getting outplayed by Green defensively. That's laughable. He's not a #4. Do you guys really think Lidstrom is the yardstick for what a #1 should be?

This team is playing like **** now. This board is obsessed with our defense and it's getting a little ridiculous. Fix the offense and a lot of our defensive issues go away. I honestly don't know what games you guys are watching sometimes. Our breakouts are fine. Sure, sometimes we get pinned in our own zone but what team doesn't? No, a lot of our issues start a neutral ice, inability to gain the zone, and turning the puck over as soon as their defense so much as looks at our small forwards.

Here's an idea: let's gain the zone with possession, use our teammates, generate quality shots, and retrieve the ****ing puck once in a while and generate secondary scoring chances and DeKeyser and Green will look like Norris candidates.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I would say zero offense, average defensive players are in abundance on the market every year. Hell, Kyle Quincey fits that bill and got a 1 year deal.

DK is better than Quincey. Come on, that is just a bad comparison.

DK having a bad season doesn't negate what we have seen in previous ones. He is a stable, good (not average) defensive defenseman who is young.

 

[Frk It]

I don't get the DeKeyser hate. He is not getting outplayed by Green defensively. That's laughable. He's not a #4. Do you guys really think Lidstrom is the yardstick for what a #1 should be?

This team is playing like **** now. This board is obsessed with our defense and it's getting a little ridiculous. Fix the offense and a lot of our defensive issues go away. I honestly don't know what games you guys are watching sometimes. Our breakouts are fine. Sure, sometimes we get pinned in our own zone but what team doesn't? No, a lot of our issues start a neutral ice, inability to gain the zone, and turning the puck over as soon as their defense so much as looks at our small forwards.

Here's an idea: let's gain the zone with possession, use our teammates, generate quality shots, and retrieve the ****ing puck once in a while and generate secondary scoring chances and DeKeyser and Green will look like Norris candidates.

I know 2 things about Dekeyser:

1) He can't play on a top pairing
2) He can't play on a power play

So that makes him either a #3 or a #4. They are pretty much interchangeable to me.

I think it's funny you think if we fix the offense it would fix the defense. When the exact oppsosite seems far more likely to be the case and why Holland has been chasing defenseman in trade for years but not forwards.