OT: Hurricanes Lounge XXI: Cinco de Mayo edition

[Carolinas Identity*]

You should see the Deflategate thread on the football board. So much defensiveness.

That thread is amazing.

Ix has to be trolling though. Dude has been quoting Bill Simmons since yesterday

 

[What the Faulk]

I think Ix has to have been trolling since he joined HF.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

If he admitted it at the time, the choice for the NFL would have been to either fine him or suspend him for the Superbowl. And there's no way they would have suspended him for the Superbowl.

There's no "smoking gun" that Brady told them to deflate the footballs lower than the required amount. However, there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that points to that conclusion. You've got the texts from the two employees, one of whom refers to himself as "the Deflator", that seem to indicate that Brady knows what's going on, if not involved himself. That makes sense. He'd have to know what's going on. He's the QB. He's the one handling the football the most. He'd know if the balls weren't up to specs if it were done without his knowledge.

In addition to the texts from the employees, you've got Brady refusing to hand over his cellphone and emails, when EVERY other person in the Patriots organization agreed to do so. Doesn't mean he's involved, but it's certainly enough to raise suspicion. There's no smoking gun, but there's enough evidence to say that it's "more probable than not" that Brady (at the very least) knew what was going on.

In addition, the investigation also found that it was "more probable than not" that this wasn't a one time event. Yeah, using deflated footballs for half a game in a 45-7 blowout isn't a big deal. But if I read yesterday's N&O correctly, the NFL believes this might have been going on since the beginning of the 2014 season. If that's the case, then the suspension + fine + loss of draft picks is appropriate.

It probably also doesn't help that the Patriots have the "repeat offender" status attached to them, after Spygate. Not sure why the Patriots feel the need to bend the rules to win, considering they're likely good enough without doing so, but if they continue to do so (allegedly), then they can't really complain about the punishments when they get caught.

Everything you wrote only furthers my complaint about the severity of the punishment. Basically, circumstantial evidence and punishment doesn't fit the crime. That's it in a nutshell for me. I can all but guarantee you that virtually every QB and kicker in the league provides his football inflation preferences to the equipment guys and if the league measured every football, they'd find a lot more out of spec. Heck, our high school kicker used to do just that, depending on the weather. Didn't I read that the Colts, in that very same game had 4 balls below the limit also? To me, this is the NFL just pandering to the media and trying to look "holier than thou".

I heard a good analogy from a friend yesterday (I'm guessing he heard it somewhere else). He said this is like giving a guy a felony conviction for a parking ticket. Even if he has multiple parking tickets (as you said, repeat offender), he still shouldn't get a felony conviction. That's what deflating balls below the spec is akin to. It's psychological more than anything else. It's not purposely going after another team's star player's knees. It's not doping to get a competitive advantage. It's not headhunting. etc.. As I said before, this is akin to the pine tar incident with George Brett.

Anyhow, I don't care about the punishment to the Patriots specifically, as I'm not a fan of them, just the ridiculousness of how the NFL dole's out punishment at random is my issue. I guess when you make gobs of money, are a monopoly, and are the guy hired by the owners to make the rules, that's what you get.

If the NFL is so concerned about this, there is a simple solution. Have the league provide the game balls for every game and keep them under league control when not on the field.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Pretty much. Brady only hurt himself by not turning over his phone and the Patriots only hurt themselves by withholding the McNally dude from questioning.

If my employer asked me to turn over my person cell phone so they could comb through it, I would tell them to go **** themselves and have every right to do that. The guy had somebody deflate a football for him, it's not a criminal investigation. It's a dramatic overreach and overreaction to something that just about every QB does. They've bent over backwards changing rules to make football all offense for the past 10 years and THIS is where they put the line in the sand?

 

[Novacane]

If my employer asked me to turn over my person cell phone so they could comb through it, I would tell them to go **** themselves and have every right to do that. The guy had somebody deflate a football for him, it's not a criminal investigation. It's a dramatic overreach and overreaction to something that just about every QB does. They've bent over backwards changing rules to make football all offense for the past 10 years and THIS is where they put the line in the sand?

That's all well and good but if they have reason to be suspicious and you don't give up something to exonerate yourself, chances are you played a part. I'm not saying it's right, but hindering their investigation wasn't too bright.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

That's all well and good but if they have reason to be suspicious and you don't give up something to exonerate yourself, chances are you played a part. I'm not saying it's right, but hindering their investigation wasn't too bright.

Maybe there were other things on his phone that he didn't want them to see...like naked pictures of his wife.

 

[What the Faulk]

That's all well and good but if they have reason to be suspicious and you don't give up something to exonerate yourself, chances are you played a part. I'm not saying it's right, but hindering their investigation wasn't too bright.

I get that the NFL is a private institution, but are we really comfortable giving them the authority to say "guilty until proven innocent"? Why should Brady be forced to bare the burden of proof here? How is he, hypothetically, supposed to prove the absence of involvement?

 

[Novacane]

I get that the NFL is a private institution, but are we really comfortable giving them the authority to say "guilty until proven innocent"? Why should Brady be forced to bare the burden of proof here? How is he, hypothetically, supposed to prove the absence of involvement?

By not having texts that say "Deflate my balls, please. Thanks. -Tom Brady"

 

[What the Faulk]

Well that's not really the point. The NFL is basically saying, "it's more probable than not" that you're guilty, but we still need to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, so help us incriminate you. No? Oh well, you're still getting punished.

He's screwed whether he's innocent or guilty, whether he helps the investigation or not. That's kinda ****ed up.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Wells specifically mentioned two series of text exchanges between officials' locker room attendant Jim McNally and equipment assistant John Jastremski. In one, McNally referred to himself as "the Deflator" and joked about going to ESPN. In another, Jastremski mentioned speaking to Brady the previous night, saying the quarterback knew McNally was stressed out by needing to deflate the balls.

...

Wells said the Patriots were cooperative, with two major exceptions: declining a request for a second interview with McNally, and Brady's refusal to turn over phone records. Wells said he had told Brady and Yee he did not need to see his phone and would have accepted a list of communications.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/direct-evidence-shows-tom-brady-knew-about-deflated-footballs-nfl-investigator-says/

I don't think "innocent" plays a part in this investigation. The only thing Brady could have hoped for was a lighter punishment by cooperating rather than hindering the investigation.

 

[What the Faulk]

Still not the point I'm making.

 

[the halleJOKEL]

who cares if tom brady is in trouble it is good for the league if the patriots are folded as a franchise

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

Shall I just go ahead and order you and I both one of these Dave? :laugh

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Still not the point I'm making.

The standard of proof required to "convict" regarding "rules of competition" violations in the NFL is exactly the wording Ted Wells used in his report, the now famous "more probable than less probable."

It's like a civil trial, the evidence essentially only has to be 51% in favor of the winner.

 

[What the Faulk]

I have a problem with the NFL saying that because Brady didn't help, they are punishing him. Why is that an okay thing to do? Let's say, hypothetically, that the evidence was 49% without Brady. Why should he help?

It's like those people who say "guilty people have nothing to hide". No, stop, shut up. Guilt isn't the issue here. What if Tom Brady has a serious Rogaine dependency that he doesn't want anyone to know about?

I get that private institutions get to make up their own rules, but when they become the Judge Judy and Executioner, with a less than stellar reputation, can you fault athletes for not trusting them?

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Except that's not just with private institutions. Even in the court of law, if you cover up your crime, you get punished more severely than if you had turned yourself in. You can be arrested for interfering or hindering a police investigation.

I don't see why the same thing wouldn't apply here. If you ****ed up, it's better to admit it up front than have it be found out later. Because the punishment for it being found out later is certain to be greater.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Except that's not just with private institutions. Even in the court of law, if you cover up your crime, you get punished more severely than if you had turned yourself in. You can be arrested for interfering or hindering a police investigation.

I don't see why the same thing wouldn't apply here. If you ****ed up, it's better to admit it up front than have it be found out later. Because the punishment for it being found out later is certain to be greater.

Using a crime as an example isn't a good one to make your point BLB. This isn't "covering up" or interfering, this is a case of him not participating in the investigation. If you want to use a Crime as the example, this is much more akin to a guy not testifying against himself. In US law, the 5th amendment specifically provides you with the right to keep from incriminating yourself, directly or indirectly. You don't have to talk to Police, DA, or testify and according to the 5th amendment, you cannot be punished for exercising this right.

Again, the NFL is a private institution so they can pretty much make up whatever rules they want, but your example isn't relevant. If this was the US Justice system and this was a crime. 1) Brady would have right, by law, to not speak to the investigators and 2) Brady wouldn't have to turn over his phone unless the law had strong enough evidence to obtain a search warrant for it. If they simply asked for it, he could say no.

Again, my biggest beef is the punishment doesn't meet the crime, especially given the circumstantial nature of the evidence.

 

[What the Faulk]

^^ In the court, we have constitutional amendments governing these things. Failing to comply with that is one thing, but warrants/subpoenas are issued by a neutral third party. The NFL conducted their own investigation. They wanted what they wanted, and there was no one around to tell them whether it was okay. And when they didn't get it, the punishment came down anyway. That's not a precedent I like, and it's not the first time that it's happened. As Joe said, it's like an employer asking an employee to surrender their personal cell phone. Legally, they can't (since we're not talking criminal charges here), and if they fire you for it, you can bet your ass they'd lose a wrongful termination suit without sufficient evidence. Checks and balances.

Again, I don't care what rules Brady did or did not break. I personally think he did, but I'm not sure if there's sufficient proof, especially for the punishments levied. That doesn't give the NFL the right to play God.

EDIT: Also, what BBA said

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

A guy with a 6 figure salary got fired yesterday for shouting the "Jameis Winston" quote on air at a TFC game on Sunday, then laughing about it.

Literally zero sympathy. Trolling is trolling, but something's are just off limits.

 

[Unsustainable]

A guy with a 6 figure salary got fired yesterday for shouting the "Jameis Winston" quote on air at a TFC game on Sunday, then laughing about it.

Literally zero sympathy. Trolling is trolling, but something's are just off limits.

That guy who berated the drive through girl at hate chicken is bankrupt.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

A guy with a 6 figure salary got fired yesterday for shouting the "Jameis Winston" quote on air at a TFC game on Sunday, then laughing about it.

Literally zero sympathy. Trolling is trolling, but something's are just off limits.

On air into a mic held by a woman reporter who apparently had had enough of the "trend." She followed him, asked him if he'd take it back if he could...and the dude laughed and laughed...and then some hours later got fired.

Lesson? Don't be an idiot.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I probably tell my kids once per week, be careful what you say (in person and online) as you are always in range of someones camera phone, but those guys were idiots. I mean the mic and camera where front and center.

 

[Brock Anton]

If anything, he should have gotten fired for wearing an Arsenal shirt to a TFC match.

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

Is this going to be the year my dream comes true and the NBA Finals are: Wizards & Warriors??!

 

[Brock Anton]

Based on the Wizards' performance in the 4th tonight... no.