Hronek, Filip

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

SuperStaal, Djoos, Stecher, DDK, and even Nemeth have driven to the goal. I don't think it's Blash that's holding Hronek back. Something isn't right when Staal is more aggressive offensively than Hronek.

One thing I have noticed is that Blash isn't doing set plays off faceoffs to Mantha or Hronek. Not sure why he quit doing that, did both Mantha and Hronek lose their slappers?

Mike Green had a really good slapper before his shoulder injury, after that it was at the level you saw in Detroit.

I think he leaves those other guys alone and is working on a young developing guy with potential.

 

[Gniwder]

I think he leaves those other guys alone and is working on a young developing guy with potential.

You think Hronek is getting a special order not to get involved offensively? I find that hard to believe.

I think maybe he's nursing some sort of shoulder or elbow injury, his shot isn't the same and he's not engaging physically on the defensive end either.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

currently 23rd in TOI for Dmen.@ 23:33
23rd in pts., 22pts/40gp (tied w/ Josi, McAvoy & Ekblad, who've played a few lesser gp each, but on better teams & also they play more minutes)
13th worst -13
12 pims !!
9 PPP, tied 17th-20th
13 EVP, tied 30th-34th

time to start recognizing him for what he is, per Osgood: "A star in the making".

He's the 2nd most important piece on this team behind Larkin, imo.

 

[SoupGuru]

currently 23rd in TOI for Dmen.@ 23:33
23rd in pts., 22pts/40gp (tied w/ Josi, McAvoy & Ekblad, who've played a few lesser gp each, but on better teams & also they play more minutes)
13th worst -13
12 pims !!
9 PPP, tied 17th-20th
13 EVP, tied 30th-34th

time to start recognizing him for what he is, per Osgood: "A star in the making".

He's the 2nd most important piece on this team behind Larkin, imo.

I'm not disagreeing or trying to argue, but I have yet to have someone explain to me what makes Hronek good. It's usually some variation of these lists of stats. "He's good because he has 22 points." Which is true, I guess, to some degree. But I'd love to hear an answer that fills in this blank: "Hronek has 22 points because ________."

 

[14ari13]

I think he leaves those other guys alone and is working on a young developing guy with potential.

You think Hronek is getting a special order not to get involved offensively? I find that hard to believe.

I think maybe he's nursing some sort of shoulder or elbow injury, his shot isn't the same and he's not engaging physically on the defensive end either.

I think you are both right. Hronek is the only defender Blashill works on to develop. We have 4 veterans on the left side. 3 of them FAs, Nemeth, Merrill and Staal? So Hronek is the lone guy we will see the next 10+ years.
I would bring back both Nemeth and Merrill.
I doubt Stecher and Djoos are in any plans.
Chalovski is another young defender, but he does not play. He probably will after the trade deadline.

I'm not disagreeing or trying to argue, but I have yet to have someone explain to me what makes Hronek good. It's usually some variation of these lists of stats. "He's good because he has 22 points." Which is true, I guess, to some degree. But I'd love to hear an answer that fills in this blank: "Hronek has 22 points because ________."

He logs 25ish min a night, most on our team, he plays both PP and PK. He does not make costly mistakes in his own end, he has a very good shot. He has the chemistry with Larkin, Nemeth and specifically DeKeyser.
It is hard to say how he develops as the whole team is a work in progress. But so far so good.

 

[Henkka]

I think maybe he's nursing some sort of shoulder or elbow injury, his shot isn't the same and he's not engaging physically on the defensive end either.

If same would happen to Lucas Raymond, the excuse is called as "Frölunda killing his offensive development."

 

[Pavels Dog]

I'm not disagreeing or trying to argue, but I have yet to have someone explain to me what makes Hronek good. It's usually some variation of these lists of stats. "He's good because he has 22 points." Which is true, I guess, to some degree. But I'd love to hear an answer that fills in this blank: "Hronek has 22 points because ________."

he's good

 

[Hen Kolland]

currently 23rd in TOI for Dmen.@ 23:33
23rd in pts., 22pts/40gp (tied w/ Josi, McAvoy & Ekblad, who've played a few lesser gp each, but on better teams & also they play more minutes)
13th worst -13
12 pims !!
9 PPP, tied 17th-20th
13 EVP, tied 30th-34th

time to start recognizing him for what he is, per Osgood: "A star in the making".

He's the 2nd most important piece on this team behind Larkin, imo.

He certainly isn't in my eyes, but I will entertain the opinion "2nd most important piece" on THIS team. He stands to be passed in terms of importance and value by Zadina, Seider, Raymond, possibly Berggren, potentially Johansson, certainly whoever we pick in the draft.

Point being, even if we could dumb this down to confirm that he is the 2nd most important piece on THIS team, that doesn't really mean a lot because there is nothing all that important about THIS team. As soon as the team is worth a damn, Hronek will be a good piece that isn't nearly as important as he may be today.

I hope he proves me wrong, but there's something to be discerned behind the numbers... 72.7% of his points are secondary points... 81.8% are secondary plus empty net goals... I think he has a primary assist on an empty net goal as well, so realistically we could be talking about 3/22 points that he was a primary factor of the play AND had a goalie in net trying to prevent goals. At the end of the season when Awood publishes his compilations on Youtube so I can watch the one of Hronek's seasons, I am really eager to re-watch them because I honestly don't remember many instances where he created the offense.

 

[newfy]

He certainly isn't in my eyes, but I will entertain the opinion "2nd most important piece" on THIS team. He stands to be passed in terms of importance and value by Zadina, Seider, Raymond, possibly Berggren, potentially Johansson, certainly whoever we pick in the draft.

Point being, even if we could dumb this down to confirm that he is the 2nd most important piece on THIS team, that doesn't really mean a lot because there is nothing all that important about THIS team. As soon as the team is worth a damn, Hronek will be a good piece that isn't nearly as important as he may be today.

I hope he proves me wrong, but there's something to be discerned behind the numbers... 72.7% of his points are secondary points... 81.8% are secondary plus empty net goals... I think he has a primary assist on an empty net goal as well, so realistically we could be talking about 3/22 points that he was a primary factor of the play AND had a goalie in net trying to prevent goals. At the end of the season when Awood publishes his compilations on Youtube so I can watch the one of Hronek's seasons, I am really eager to re-watch them because I honestly don't remember many instances where he created the offense.

The odds of Johansson ever being as good as Hronek is now are pretty low. People are overthinking it.

Hes produced at a 40 point pace his entire career on a bad team. This year he has "2" goals but whats your explanation for his 9 last year in only 65 games? If you consistently produce 40 points as a dman in the NHL, youre a bonafide top pairing offensive guy. Its not like this is some fluke year for him. Hronek does that on bad teams and hes only 23 years old. Like hes literally the age where 5 years ago he wouldnt be called up to the wings until now and people are down on him. Wait til hes 28 with guys like Zadina and Raymond entering their prime and some help from his partner.

This thread has the potential to look as bad as the Larkin and Bertuzzi draft threads to be honest with some of these bad takes

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

He certainly isn't in my eyes, but I will entertain the opinion "2nd most important piece" on THIS team. He stands to be passed in terms of importance and value by Zadina, Seider, Raymond, possibly Berggren, potentially Johansson, certainly whoever we pick in the draft.

Point being, even if we could dumb this down to confirm that he is the 2nd most important piece on THIS team, that doesn't really mean a lot because there is nothing all that important about THIS team. As soon as the team is worth a damn, Hronek will be a good piece that isn't nearly as important as he may be today.

I hope he proves me wrong, but there's something to be discerned behind the numbers... 72.7% of his points are secondary points... 81.8% are secondary plus empty net goals... I think he has a primary assist on an empty net goal as well, so realistically we could be talking about 3/22 points that he was a primary factor of the play AND had a goalie in net trying to prevent goals. At the end of the season when Awood publishes his compilations on Youtube so I can watch the one of Hronek's seasons, I am really eager to re-watch them because I honestly don't remember many instances where he created the offense.

Is it Hronek's fault we barely have a Top 5 F, not 6, but 5. Ryan is a good 3rd liner. Fabbri & Zadina are showing Top6 ability this year for the 1st time in their respective careers. Mantha's reverted back to quasi-interested Mantha, only when he feels like it. Bert is out. Hronek makes plenty of decent plays, but being asked to carry the #1 D load 24+ /gp on a lottery team is overwhelming for anybody. Even Paul Coffey would struggle to put up the kind of primary assists & goals you're expecting from Hronek...76pts/151gp is actually outstanding all things considered & overall very good. Not saying he's the next Paul Coffey, but give credit where it's due. Someone still has to make the plays he has to get the production. GM's/Teams pay a premium in UFA/even RFA hoping to get a 40pt Dman...


Some Fans: "well his pts are the easy kind, therefore, very little/no credit to said Dman."


Like those bosses/manager/companies: "a monkey could do that job"...well no, a monkey couldn't, wouldn't & shouldn't do that job.


He's had a career 151g. When we have an actual Top4/6 D (approx 2-3yrs from now), & a good Top6/9F (approx 2+ yrs) with Hronek over (only) 300-400gp, then apply your same formula. By then he may just have a 50pt season too.

 

[Hen Kolland]

The odds of Johansson ever being as good as Hronek is now are pretty low. People are overthinking it.

Hes produced at a 40 point pace his entire career on a bad team. This year he has "2" goals but whats your explanation for his 9 last year in only 65 games? If you consistently produce 40 points as a dman in the NHL, youre a bonafide top pairing offensive guy. Its not like this is some fluke year for him. Hronek does that on bad teams and hes only 23 years old. Like hes literally the age where 5 years ago he wouldnt be called up to the wings until now and people are down on him. Wait til hes 28 with guys like Zadina and Raymond entering their prime and some help from his partner.

This thread has the potential to look as bad as the Larkin and Bertuzzi draft threads to be honest with some of these bad takes

He's been below average in his own zone this year, and I am tempering the narrative that he is some sort of dynamic offensive defenseman. I've already talked about the evolution of his role on the powerplay and how that influenced his goal totals, so maybe playing "gotcha" isn't the smartest idea.

Last year he was generating 0.74 primary points per 60 minutes, this year it's 0.38. That includes both empty net goals and the empty net assist. Just so we are consistent with the post you responded to, that is 0.19 primary points per 60 in which the opposing goalie was on the ice. He just hasn't progressed this season the way that many people are insinuating, and that doesn't mean he's bad, it just means he isn't great.

Put it this way, really the only way that people can defend Hronek is by talking about how he gets a lot of counting stats, but they can't tell me what he's doing to create them. They can't point to his play as it's happening and say "see look right there, that's why he is a first pairing defenseman." He has been good at taking the plays that are in front of him (as long as that play isn't setting up Zadina or Mantha with a decent wheelhouse pass), and that has been the secret to his sauce.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

He's been below average in his own zone this year, and I am tempering the narrative that he is some sort of dynamic offensive defenseman. I've already talked about the evolution of his role on the powerplay and how that influenced his goal totals, so maybe playing "gotcha" isn't the smartest idea.

Last year he was generating 0.74 primary points per 60 minutes, this year it's 0.38. That includes both empty net goals and the empty net assist. Just so we are consistent with the post you responded to, that is 0.19 primary points per 60 in which the opposing goalie was on the ice. He just hasn't progressed this season the way that many people are insinuating, and that doesn't mean he's bad, it just means he isn't great.

Put it this way, really the only way that people can defend Hronek is by talking about how he gets a lot of counting stats, but they can't tell me what he's doing to create them. They can't point to his play as it's happening and say "see look right there, that's why he is a first pairing defenseman." He has been good at taking the plays that are in front of him (as long as that play isn't setting up Zadina or Mantha with a decent wheelhouse pass), and that has been the secret to his sauce.

Valid points & I understand your logic + examples. Now consider that by the same logic, wouldn't DDK have put up 40pts too before Hronek arrived. Green paced for ~40+ his 1st 4 years here, but got hurt the last 2 & never actually put up 40pts. Who else?

 

[Frk It]

I hope he proves me wrong, but there's something to be discerned behind the numbers... 72.7% of his points are secondary points... 81.8% are secondary plus empty net goals... I think he has a primary assist on an empty net goal as well, so realistically we could be talking about 3/22 points that he was a primary factor of the play AND had a goalie in net trying to prevent goals. At the end of the season when Awood publishes his compilations on Youtube so I can watch the one of Hronek's seasons, I am really eager to re-watch them because I honestly don't remember many instances where he created the offense.

How about the year before where he was .5 PPG (2019)? Or the year before that where he was .5 PPG (2018)?

Man, this guy is just lucky as hell.

 

[DetroitRed]

I guess when I see a defender leading the team in points after so many games, I'm impressed. Especially a young defender and I think that's important to remember that because it seems like getting thrust into a leading role makes people examine his game more and critique him harder.

He's young! He's in a role he was never supposed to be in. And he's leading the team in points as a defender. Those are the three things I keep in mind regarding Hronek.

You can say this aspect of his game didn't improve or that, but generally the team did not improve as individual players, but got worse, even if they improved slightly in the standings. If you realize that the forwards basically got worse, then I think you have to accept Hronek's play. I don't think you can take one and be okay with it, but then be upset about the other. And secondary assists or whatever, it's just not normal for a defender to be leading in points. It's impressive.

 

[HisNoodliness]

I'm not disagreeing or trying to argue, but I have yet to have someone explain to me what makes Hronek good. It's usually some variation of these lists of stats. "He's good because he has 22 points." Which is true, I guess, to some degree. But I'd love to hear an answer that fills in this blank: "Hronek has 22 points because ________."

He passes well and with good vision. His shot is good and he has good lateral mobility. While not being particularly fast, he's good at evading pressure. These skills help him keep posession and put the puck in more dangerous situations. He positions himself well to receive other's passes and do something with the puck. While not elite in any regard, by being good at every offensive skill, he consistently contributes to the attack.

 

[Henkka]

From last 3 seasons guys like DeKeyser are +29 and -29.

Hronek is +51 and -112.

Think Hronek is our worst defenceman defensively from our current group.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

I think it's hilarious that so many people are down on a late second round pick with less than a season and a half of NHL experience and just slightly over 2 seasons of NA experience for being less than fantastic in his own zone.

With less than two full seasons of NHL play the guy is at least a fantastic second pair guy with the chance to become a solid first pair guy. He's a player you hold on to.

Defenseman suffer more than forwards from having a weak roster. Put Hronek on a contending team and he's scoring 45-50 points from the second pair and first PP. He's the kind of guy that anchors your defense from the second pair.

Of all our D prospects, Seider is the only one who will likely have a greater impact at the NHL level than Hronek.

 

[SoupGuru]

He passes well and with good vision. His shot is good and he has good lateral mobility. While not being particularly fast, he's good at evading pressure. These skills help him keep posession and put the puck in more dangerous situations. He positions himself well to receive other's passes and do something with the puck. While not elite in any regard, by being good at every offensive skill, he consistently contributes to the attack.

Thank you.

I might disagree that he has a good shot, or at least shot selection, but I kind of echo what you're saying.

He's generally open for a pass and moves the puck to the next guy to keep possession which leads to good things.

 

[Winger98]

He's been below average in his own zone this year, and I am tempering the narrative that he is some sort of dynamic offensive defenseman. I've already talked about the evolution of his role on the powerplay and how that influenced his goal totals, so maybe playing "gotcha" isn't the smartest idea.

Last year he was generating 0.74 primary points per 60 minutes, this year it's 0.38. That includes both empty net goals and the empty net assist. Just so we are consistent with the post you responded to, that is 0.19 primary points per 60 in which the opposing goalie was on the ice. He just hasn't progressed this season the way that many people are insinuating, and that doesn't mean he's bad, it just means he isn't great.

Put it this way, really the only way that people can defend Hronek is by talking about how he gets a lot of counting stats, but they can't tell me what he's doing to create them. They can't point to his play as it's happening and say "see look right there, that's why he is a first pairing defenseman." He has been good at taking the plays that are in front of him (as long as that play isn't setting up Zadina or Mantha with a decent wheelhouse pass), and that has been the secret to his sauce.

With primary points there are something I'm curious about. Since you've already been doing the footwork on the stats, I'll just pose it because I'm not entirely sure how to pull the info for it. How much of the primary points numbers are purely a reflection on his lower goal total? When we talk about his fewer primary points are we really just finding multiple ways of punishing him for scoring fewer goals?

Hronek's not a guy who is going to skate the puck up ice and lead rushes. He's going to, as you say, take that play in front of him, and just move it up. How much of Lidstrom's game was taking what was in front of him and making the simple, smart, effective play every single time? Rafalski did it. Murphy did it. Chelios did it. Stuart did it. It's not a bad way of playing the game. Taking the plays that are in front of him is the key to the success of a lot of defensemen in the NHL. I wouldn't chalk that up as a negative.

 

[JoesuffP]

Hronek is the first top 4 the wings have developed since…. Kronwall? I don’t see him as a true #1 in the making but there is a lot to be excited about. This is something to build off of. Imagine throwing Seider into this lineup without any capable top 4

 

[19 for president]

I think it's hilarious that so many people are down on a late second round pick with less than a season and a half of NHL experience and just slightly over 2 seasons of NA experience for being less than fantastic in his own zone.

With less than two full seasons of NHL play the guy is at least a fantastic second pair guy with the chance to become a solid first pair guy. He's a player you hold on to.

Defenseman suffer more than forwards from having a weak roster. Put Hronek on a contending team and he's scoring 45-50 points from the second pair and first PP. He's the kind of guy that anchors your defense from the second pair.

Of all our D prospects, Seider is the only one who will likely have a greater impact at the NHL level than Hronek.

This 100x this! If we are lucky and Seider becomes the #1 we all hope for, we are going to be thrilled to have a dman like Hronek to anchor the 2nd pair. Right now he is playing above where he should, and is still producing. He is showing a consistent offensive pace, and the Wings have not had a young dman do that over multiple seasons since Kronner entered the league.

He may well be the worst defensive dman on this team, but the rest are all "defensive dmen," they should be better than him. The only guy that is remotely 2 way is Strecher. Merril, Staal, Nemeth, and DD are all guys that are supposed to keep it simple, block pucks, and get the puck out of our zone. Actually I forgot about Djoos who is worse than Hronek defensively and is the other offensive dman on the team.

People are always ready to throw away younger guys after a year or two because of the new shiny prospect, but please remember that the draft class of Sproul, XO, Marchenko, and Backman turned into nothing and outside of Seider they all had a better pedigree than any of our current dmen prospects. You don't throw away dmen with a consistent top 30 pt pace. Hronek is flawed but he is also 23, playing on a terrible team, and without a decent d partner. Most dmen are not Lidstrom, where you could pair them with scrubs, and have them still be a dominant pair.

The only way I give up Hronek is if Seider comes over and is as good as advertised and we can use him to grab a top pair LD. Maybe a center, but only if we can secure another dman first. You win with defense in this league, especially if you want to properly manage your cap.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

I didn't think bumping this thread would be so polarizing. We're clearly still tainted/spoiled from having Lidstrom.

 

[SoupGuru]

I didn't think bumping this thread would be so polarizing. We're clearly still tainted/spoiled from having Lidstrom.

In my mind, the thread is shouting at each other about whether Hronek is amazing or good. I'm in the "good" camp, which some are misinterpreting as me thinking he's terrible. I don't. I just don't see any obvious skill to hang my hat on. It's a nebulous swirl of keeping the play going in the offensive zone. Which is good and underrated, I think. I'm certainly happy he's being rewarded for it.

 

[Hen Kolland]

With primary points there are something I'm curious about. Since you've already been doing the footwork on the stats, I'll just pose it because I'm not entirely sure how to pull the info for it. How much of the primary points numbers are purely a reflection on his lower goal total? When we talk about his fewer primary points are we really just finding multiple ways of punishing him for scoring fewer goals?

Hronek's not a guy who is going to skate the puck up ice and lead rushes. He's going to, as you say, take that play in front of him, and just move it up. How much of Lidstrom's game was taking what was in front of him and making the simple, smart, effective play every single time? Rafalski did it. Murphy did it. Chelios did it. Stuart did it. It's not a bad way of playing the game. Taking the plays that are in front of him is the key to the success of a lot of defensemen in the NHL. I wouldn't chalk that up as a negative.

No it's not a negative by any means. I think his willingness to take the play in front of him is a trait that makes him more valuable than he would otherwise be, mainly because he doesn't have a dynamic ability to bite off even more. As for the primary point discussion, it's hard to isolate a lot of variables, but we can look at it broken out like this I suppose (in totals, rounding errors present). I think the thing that we still don't know is how many primary assists he logged last year off of rebounds that his shot created.

2018-19: 23 points - 21.7% goals, 34.8% A1, 43.5% A2
2019-20: 31 points - 29.0% goals, 32.3% A1, 38.7% A2
2020-21: 22 points - 9.1% goals, 18.2% A1, 72.7% A2

Now certainly, the role on the powerplay is significant here. He produced 10.4 individual shots per 60 minutes of powerplay time last year compared to 7.4 this year, meaning he is shooting less, and we know by watching him that he's not shooting from the same spot on the ice. His shots are likely not even intended to be goal scoring threats by themselves, and rather trying to use screens and deflections to create chances, which is fine.

I feel like I have to keep repeating this, not because of this response, but because the reaction is always so aggressive. My intent is not to say that Hronek is a bad player, but he is a first pairing defenseman only if you look at him through a statistical production microscope. The way he has come around his offense is appreciable, but he is not dynamic enough to be in the the upper echelon of true offensive defensemen. And defensively, he looks the same as he did last year. I do not want him to see the ice on the PK; I think he still is taken advantage of physically in his end; he still gets lost in his own zone; he makes questionable reads defending in transition.

These are things that I think he will still get better at, but the lack of polish prevents me from comfortably saying he is a first pairing defenseman because I don't think he will ever be good at them (just not bad), and yet I still think he is a good player. Just one who is better suited to not be asked to do as much as he does, even if that means his numbers regress slightly, because we have a player set to arrive next year who I think is even better at taking the play that is in front of him and who also excels at the things that happen in the other end of the ice. Hronek as the second best RD on your team is a legitimate weapon, and I am excited to get him into that role.

 

[14ari13]

He's been below average in his own zone this year, and I am tempering the narrative that he is some sort of dynamic offensive defenseman. I've already talked about the evolution of his role on the powerplay and how that influenced his goal totals, so maybe playing "gotcha" isn't the smartest idea.

Last year he was generating 0.74 primary points per 60 minutes, this year it's 0.38. That includes both empty net goals and the empty net assist. Just so we are consistent with the post you responded to, that is 0.19 primary points per 60 in which the opposing goalie was on the ice. He just hasn't progressed this season the way that many people are insinuating, and that doesn't mean he's bad, it just means he isn't great.

Put it this way, really the only way that people can defend Hronek is by talking about how he gets a lot of counting stats, but they can't tell me what he's doing to create them. They can't point to his play as it's happening and say "see look right there, that's why he is a first pairing defenseman." He has been good at taking the plays that are in front of him (as long as that play isn't setting up Zadina or Mantha with a decent wheelhouse pass), and that has been the secret to his sauce.

You can't check just advanced stats and expect to get the whole picture.

He leads the team in points and he has more points than our next 3 defenders combined. How about that?