Hmmm .... Zach Hyman

[saltming]

Wow, its just crazy how far some of these arguments are going. I think its been proven, VERY clearly, why many and probably majority of folks think Hyman on the 1st line might not be ideal, but they see the logic of why he's likely our best option on that line right now all things considered.

I, just like many other fans get frustrated when I see Hyman on a line with Matthews/Nylander and a lack of offensive ability, but I think thats being blown wayyy out of proportion by some to the point of suggesting he's good at basically nothing and that we have guys who can immediately replace him and do all the things he does much better. That is where it gets to a point of utter BS. I'll repost this from before:



I'll correct one sentence there since I'm sure someone is going to nitpick, my suggestion that Hyman never goes down is not fair to say, but my point is he's tough as hell and it was in comparison to Marleau who I don't see being able to handle the wear and tear of that line the way Hyman does.

Oh and before someone says Johnsson, he's played 2 NHL games. The Matthews line to start the season last year were mainly going up against other teams 2nd or 3rd defense pairings, in other words they were protected and grew into the dominant force they are now. Now other teams put their top players against that line, to think Johnsson would be ready for that before Matthews and Nylander were, is absurd.

Joshnsson is also 5'10" 180lbs I don't think he would last too long absorbing the punishment zach does

 

[White Shadow]

Wow, its just crazy how far some of these arguments are going. I think its been proven, VERY clearly, why many and probably majority of folks think Hyman on the 1st line might not be ideal, but they see the logic of why he's likely our best option on that line right now all things considered.

I, just like many other fans get frustrated when I see Hyman on a line with Matthews/Nylander and a lack of offensive ability, but I think thats being blown wayyy out of proportion by some to the point of suggesting he's good at basically nothing and that we have guys who can immediately replace him and do all the things he does much better. That is where it gets to a point of utter BS. I'll repost this from before:



I'll correct one sentence there since I'm sure someone is going to nitpick, my suggestion that Hyman never goes down is not fair to say, but my point is he's tough as hell and it was in comparison to Marleau who I don't see being able to handle the wear and tear of that line the way Hyman does.

Oh and before someone says Johnsson, he's played 2 NHL games. The Matthews line to start the season last year were mainly going up against other teams 2nd or 3rd defense pairings, in other words they were protected and grew into the dominant force they are now. Now other teams put their top players against that line, to think Johnsson would be ready for that before Matthews and Nylander were, is absurd.

That is a huge part of the M.O. behind what Babs wants from that spot. That guy will go up against the number 1 defense pairing every single night. That guy also spends the bulk of his time in front of the net or on the boards. Durability is definitely a big part of the package of tools necessary for that spot.

 

[Liminality]

I'll correct one sentence there since I'm sure someone is going to nitpick, my suggestion that Hyman never goes down is not fair to say, but my point is he's tough as hell and it was in comparison to Marleau who I don't see being able to handle the wear and tear of that line the way Hyman does.

To continue on the wear and tear part.

Hyman actually leads the league in hits taken.

Hyman has taken 184 hits this season so far. The next closest is Gardiner and Kadri with 121 hits taken on our team. 2nd is Carlo with 176 and the next forward on the list has 146.

 

[White Shadow]

To continue on the wear and tear part.

Hyman actually leads the league in hits taken.

Hyman has taken 184 hits this season so far. The next closest is Gardiner and Kadri with 121 hits taken on our team. 2nd is Carlo with 176 and the next forward on the list has 146.

When you always have the puck...

 

[Liminality]

When you always have the puck...

Or at least when you always fight for the puck. He may not win every puck battle but it seems he draws attention away from other players which is impressive if your line mates are Matthews and Nylander.

 

[moon111]

Hyman, Matthews, and Nylander are #11, #12, and #20th in the NHL for +/- among forwards.

Only in Leaf land would they say this line isn't working.

The goal is to score more then you let in. 1-0 works just as well as 5-4. Only... a forward who
scores more can rack up a higher salary. Why would you want to take away a formula that
not only wins, but allows your team to possibly win in the future as well? What positive outcome
could come of that? Negotiating a contract for a Rocket Richard winner? Art Ross winner?
The dollar value for defensive play is much better the offensive play.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how Matthews/Nylander are held back from the top echelon of players by virtue of 5v5 production rather than PP production. Matthews only has 2 powerplay goals (Laine has 19 by comparison) on the year. Why is that less of a focus than his completely dominant 5v5 production?

These problems aren't mutually exclusive. Matthews Powerplay has been trash, and Matthews and Nylander still play with a bottom 6 winger. Both can be right (although I'm personally starting to see only the first as a pressing issue for now). Matthews has shown he can carry anyone 5v5, I don't mind having Hyman stuck to him if he can still produce. Once Bozak is gone Nylander can play with the skilled guys. Win/Win

 

[glue]

Hyman, Matthews, and Nylander are #11, #12, and #20th in the NHL for +/- among forwards.

Only in Leaf land would they say this line isn't working.

The goal is to score more then you let in. 1-0 works just as well as 5-4. Only... a forward who
scores more can rack up a higher salary. Why would you want to take away a formula that
not only wins, but allows your team to possibly win in the future as well? What positive outcome
could come of that? Negotiating a contract for a Rocket Richard winner? Art Ross winner?
The dollar value for defensive play is much better the offensive play.

That’s an interesting point in all this, never thought of that angle

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

These problems aren't mutually exclusive. Matthews Powerplay has been trash, and Matthews and Nylander still play with a bottom 6 winger. Both can be right (although I'm personally starting to see only the first as a pressing issue for now). Matthews has shown he can carry anyone 5v5, I don't mind having Hyman stuck to him if he can still produce. Once Bozak is gone Nylander can play with the skilled guys. Win/Win

it's not mutually exclusive, but Matthews is at the top of the league in 5v5 production. I really find it hard to believe he's being held back. #1 in goals, #11 in p/60, and #3 in p1/60. he's right up there as it is, and I don't expect much better

 

[IBeL34f]

it's not mutually exclusive, but Matthews is at the top of the league in 5v5 production. I really find it hard to believe he's being held back. #1 in goals, #11 in p/60, and #3 in p1/60. he's right up there as it is, and I don't expect much better

I wouldn't say I expect much better, but I certainly won't be surprised in the slightest if Matthews wins an Art Ross or two in his career, he's just so damn good, all over the ice.

Honestly, the people who believe Hyman is capable of holding a player like Matthews back obviously don't see what I see in Matthews, let alone Hyman himself. Development takes time - We still have a ways to go before we see the finished product of most of the guys on our roster (Hyman included). Having a core this young and already this good isn't all that normal.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I wouldn't say I expect much better, but I certainly won't be surprised in the slightest if Matthews wins an Art Ross or two in his career, he's just so damn good, all over the ice.

Honestly, the people who believe Hyman is capable of holding a player like Matthews back obviously don't see what I see in Matthews, let alone Hyman himself. Development takes time - We still have a ways to go before we see the finished product of most of the guys on our roster (Hyman included). Having a core this young and already this good isn't all that normal.

if he's gonna win an Art Ross, improving on his PP production is much more important. he's #11 in 5v5 points/60 since entering the league, but #52 in powerplay points/60. I know where I want him to improve

 

[IBeL34f]

if he's gonna win an Art Ross, improving on his PP production is much more important. he's #11 in 5v5 points/60 since entering the league, but #52 in powerplay points/60. I know where I want him to improve

Unquestionably.

 

[IBeL34f]

Someone else mentioned it a while ago (maybe even in this thread) but if Hyman's truly an intelligent guy, he's gonna spend all summer doing nothing but learning how to tip pucks while standing in front of the net. Could be a huge, huge opportunity opening up next year if JVR moves on.

 

[White Shadow]

Hyman, Matthews, and Nylander are #11, #12, and #20th in the NHL for +/- among forwards.

Only in Leaf land would they say this line isn't working.

The goal is to score more then you let in. 1-0 works just as well as 5-4. Only... a forward who
scores more can rack up a higher salary. Why would you want to take away a formula that
not only wins, but allows your team to possibly win in the future as well? What positive outcome
could come of that? Negotiating a contract for a Rocket Richard winner? Art Ross winner?
The dollar value for defensive play is much better the offensive play.

My guess is this conversation happened when Shanny and Lou discussed the GM position. Lou, whose forte is contract negotiating, played this like a Stradivarius in Jersey. Lemieux even stifled Niedermayer's offense.

 

[Shanty]

So, to sum up this week's discourse so far

Hyman isn't that great of an NHLer, and shouldn't be playing with Matthews and Nylander so they can score more.

vs.

Hyman isn't that great of an NHLer (though better than some are suggesting), but is perfectly fine to slot in with Matthews and Nylander as that unit as a whole and the team are working extremely well due to that combination of players.

That about do it?

 

[White Shadow]

if he's gonna win an Art Ross, improving on his PP production is much more important. he's #11 in 5v5 points/60 since entering the league, but #52 in powerplay points/60. I know where I want him to improve

He was great last year on the PP and he will fire it u again. I think once he gets back to playing the left side that unit will fire it right back up. Nylander got a nice one against Montreal being back on his right side. With Matthews back, the strong side winger won't be able to cheat so much at the top.

 

[Liminality]

Someone else mentioned it a while ago (maybe even in this thread) but if Hyman's truly an intelligent guy, he's gonna spend all summer doing nothing but learning how to tip pucks while standing in front of the net. Could be a huge, huge opportunity opening up next year if JVR moves on.

I've seen Steve Dangle mention it a couple of times. I'd definitely agree with it though, one of the young guys needs to be practicing this and take advantage of that situation.

 

[IBeL34f]

My guess is this conversation happened when Shanny and Lou discussed the GM position. Lou, whose forte is contract negotiating, played this like a Stradivarius in Jersey. Lemieux even stifled Niedermayer's offense.

Babcock's seemed to rein in pretty much every offensively creative player he's had to work with here until he's felt confident in their abilities to make those creative plays responsibly. Based on what we've seen from Rielly, Gardiner and Kadri (let alone Nylander and Marner) in Babcock's short time with them, I'm really glad we have someone who's willing to take this approach with the team, considering how many people seem to want to be the Islanders or Oilers.

I do expect we'll see the "maximum optimization" that people are clamouring for eventually, but it'll be once Babcock has the same trust in every single player that he has in Hyman and Matthews. If Hyman continues to improve, he could still end up being on that line with Matthews and another superstar like Marner, while Willy centers his own line.

 

[frizzer1]

Anyone remember Blair McDonald..?.....early in gretzky's career he had McDonald as his winger..
He scored a ton of goals hitting 46 one year..
Then Kurri arrived and took his place...the rest is history....and so was McDonald....after a few non productive years he was gone..

 

[frizzer1]

Basically, there are 2 sides on this issue and never the twain shall meet...
So, can we all agree at least that unless Babcock tries another winger in that spot we will never have an answer one way or the other?

 

[IBeL34f]

Anyone remember Blair McDonald..?.....early in gretzky's career he had McDonald as his winger..
He scored a ton of goals hitting 46 one year..
Then Kurri arrived and took his place...the rest is history....and so was McDonald....after a few non productive years he was gone..

Cool story.

 

[IBeL34f]

Basically, there are 2 sides on this issue and never the twain shall meet...
So, can we all agree at least that unless Babcock tries another winger in that spot we will never have an answer one way or the other?

What's the question?

 

[Boutette]

Cool story.

What he left out was that Blair McDonald was a productive player *before* Gretzky, and was a top scorer for both Indianapolis and Edmonton in the WHA in the years before Gretzky showed up.

 

[nsleaf]

I think you mean “drivel” and you’re entitled to your opinion. I think more than a few are on the “trust in Babcock, who are you to question” bandwagon when it comes to Hyman.[/QUOTE]
What's wrong with that? Instead they should go with the instincts of anonymous posters called hot paws and Cabana Boy?
Simply put, Babcock has forgotten more about hockey than most will ever learn, especially on this board.

 

[frizzer1]

What he left out was that Blair McDonald was a productive player *before* Gretzky, and was a top scorer for both Indianapolis and Edmonton in the WHA in the years before Gretzky showed up.

True....but I'm talking NHL, not what were essentially minor leagues like the WHA