Hmmm .... Zach Hyman

[Daisy Jane]

That sentiment has always been pretty funny.

P.S. you forgot to add something about "kool-aid"

it's like the 'you can't have your cake and eat it too."
like... if i have cake why can't I eat it?

Of all the players you've listed only 1 of their teams is ahead of us in the standings. Thats the point!
How many scoring trophies to Datsyuk and Zetterberg have and how many cup rings do they have?
The name on the front of the jersey is more important than the name on the back.
Thats the line between the 2 factions on this topic, you and thes taunch detractors only seem to care about matthews individual stats while the others want the team to be the best it can be.
That's why most agree the matthews line could core more if hyman were replaced with say marner or jvr but we all say it would male the team a little less dangerous.
Its like toronto maple leafs fans vs Auston Matthews fans

i truly feel that is the case.
like. Babcock does not care about individual success, so while sure if a tinker or two would make Matthews go from a 69 to a 100 point player why does that matter if the Team is a division winner with Matthews having 69 points? If Matthews wins 4 cups and only has say the Byng trophy (if nothing at all), isn't the fact that he has 4 cups greater than he ever won the Richard, or the Art Ross? (don't get me wrong if he was ever in the hunt I'd want him to win it, and I'd hope Babcock would make slight corrections to help him get it, but at the end of the day if having less points for matthews equals more dangerous lines for the team - i vote the 2nd).

 

[PuckMagi]

We should keep a beer league caliber player on the top line because replacing him with an NHL caliber player would not be "spreading out our offense" which is apparently very important.

We are still a good team with a beer league caliber player on our top line... why bother seeing if an NHL caliber player on the top line would make our team better? We certainly couldn't try out a different combination for just one game.

If we replaced a beer league caliber player on our top line with an NHL player... sure the top line would score more points... but what about the other line that now gets stuck with Hyman... how will they get points?

 

[Daisy Jane]

We should keep a beer league caliber player on the top line because replacing him with an NHL caliber player would not be "spreading out our offense" which is apparently very important.

We are still a good team with a beer league caliber player on our top line... why bother seeing if an NHL caliber player on the top line would make our team better? We certainly couldn't try out a different combination for just one game.

If we replaced a beer league caliber player on our top line with an NHL player... sure the top line would score more points... but what about the other line that now gets stuck with Hyman... how will they get points?

but he's not.
like for god sakes

 

[White Shadow]

but he's not.
like for god sakes

At this point it's just attention seeking.

Don't bite

 

[Shanty]

but he's not.
like for god sakes

If that's Magi's honest belief, we have nowhere to go.

 

[frizzer1]

Oy...
Look, does anyone here think that putting kapanen on matthews' wing will kill the 4th line?
Will that destroy this suddenly magical 4 line balance?
Give me a break....the 4th line gets 4th line minutes..they are not much of a factor..

And if replacing an unskilled checking winger with a skill guy would increase the line's productivity,why not try it..?
Who could have a problem with that?
And by the way, having one of your players win a scoring championship means that something is going really well...hate to break the news to you all..

And for the last time ( at least for me)...stop telling me that the Matthews line is doing fine and to leave it alone when no on else has been tried on that line so no one bleaping knows!
Sorry but that line of reasoning may work in sports forums but don't try it in the real world..

 

[ACC1224]

Oy...
Look, does anyone here think that putting kapanen on matthews' wing will kill the 4th line?
Will that destroy this suddenly magical 4 line balance?
Give me a break....the 4th line gets 4th line minutes..they are not much of a factor..

And if replacing an unskilled checking winger with a skill guy would increase the line's productivity,why not try it..?
Who could have a problem with that?
And by the way, having one of your players win a scoring championship means that something is going really well...hate to break the news to you all..

And for the last time ( at least for me)...stop telling me that the Matthews line is doing fine and to leave it alone when no on else has been tried on that line so no one bleaping knows!
Sorry but that line of reasoning may work in sports forums but don't try it in the real world..

It is being used in the real world.

 

[frizzer1]

it's like the 'you can't have your cake and eat it too."
like... if i have cake why can't I eat it?

It's been debated but it probably should be.."you can't eat your cake and have it too"......

or from wiki ""you can't eat your cake and [then still] have it", which is in fact closer to the original form of the proverb[2] (see further explanations below) but uncommon today. Another variant uses "keep" instead of "have".[3]

 

[diceman934]

It is being used in the real world.

I guess he has not watched the last two cup wins as they have skill and offense spread out their forwards with their top line center playing with the least skilled players.

I guess we all watched a fairy tale..

 

[saltming]

Oy...
Look, does anyone here think that putting kapanen on matthews' wing will kill the 4th line?
Will that destroy this suddenly magical 4 line balance?
Give me a break....the 4th line gets 4th line minutes..they are not much of a factor..

And if replacing an unskilled checking winger with a skill guy would increase the line's productivity,why not try it..?
Who could have a problem with that?
And by the way, having one of your players win a scoring championship means that something is going really well...hate to break the news to you all..

And for the last time ( at least for me)...stop telling me that the Matthews line is doing fine and to leave it alone when no on else has been tried on that line so no one bleaping knows!
Sorry but that line of reasoning may work in sports forums but don't try it in the real world..

Is the matthews line doing badly? Are they bad with possession? Are the continually being out scored when they are on the ice? What do you think is wrong with the line?

 

[IBeL34f]

Oy...
Look, does anyone here think that putting kapanen on matthews' wing will kill the 4th line?
Will that destroy this suddenly magical 4 line balance?
Give me a break....the 4th line gets 4th line minutes..they are not much of a factor..

And if replacing an unskilled checking winger with a skill guy would increase the line's productivity,why not try it..?
Who could have a problem with that?
And by the way, having one of your players win a scoring championship means that something is going really well...hate to break the news to you all..

And for the last time ( at least for me)...stop telling me that the Matthews line is doing fine and to leave it alone when no on else has been tried on that line so no one bleaping knows!
Sorry but that line of reasoning may work in sports forums but don't try it in the real world..

I've seen this argument quite a bit in this thread, perhaps you can explain it to me - How does a line's potential for improvement negate its current successes and achievements? Just because a line could possibly be/get better 1) doesn't automatically mean that whatever you have isn't already excellent, and 2) doesn't automatically mean it's going to be better when you make those changes. You're aware that there is hard data that points to this trio being remarkably successful together, aren't you? We don't need to compare our own players with each other in order to determine that, we just need to look at that line's contributions compared to the contributions of other teams' top trios - If you do this, you'll see that Hyman-Matthews-Nylander is one of the most responsible units in the entire League (putting up the 3rd-highest combined Goal Differential in the League of any 3 Forwards on a single team) while putting up excellent 5v5 production, with each player only in their 2nd NHL season and still developing.

It's been touched on many, many times around here (by myself and others) but if you absolutely need to try and increase the production of guys like Matthews and Nylander, figure out what the problem is on the Powerplay, because the Kadri/Marner/JVR unit sees almost identical usage on the PP (15 seconds per game separates #1 JVR from #7 Nylander), yet puts up literally double the production.

Hell, Matthews is already 9th in the League in EVP/60 (1st in EVG/60) among all players with more than 10 games played this year - Comparatively, Matthews is ~186th in PPP/60 and 223rd in PPG/60 among only Forwards with the same Games Played. (Nylander is 48th in EVP/60, 18th in EVA/60, ~183rd in PPP/60, and 171st in PPA/60 among Forwards, using the same 10+ Games Played criteria)
(Hyman's ~140th-ranked EVP/60 looks ugly at first sight, but is better than the Sedins (both), Maroon, Zuccarello, Wennberg, Skinner, Nash, Hoffman, Henrique, O'Rielly, Stepan, Simmonds, Turris, Zetterberg, Thornton, Zibanejad, Koivu, Hornqvist, Oshie.... All while playing more SHTOI than any other Forward in the entire League, and bringing excellent forechecking abilities and defensive reliability)

If people really want Matthews and Willy to produce more so badly, it seems to be really, really, unavoidably, blatantly, crystal-clear, smack-you-in-the-face obvious what area of their game needs to be tinkered with. (If anyone still needs a hint: It's not their 5v5 unit.)

Zach Hyman is not the reason why Matthews and Nylander are not the cream of the NHL crop in 2017/18, and to continually complain about a responsible player like him, who is still producing well at Even Strength despite not being a "skill player", simply displays a real lack of awareness for how our team is currently being operated, or showcases a truly mis/uninformed bias towards a specific player or coach.

 

[Gary Nylund]

We should keep a beer league caliber player on the top line because replacing him with an NHL caliber player would not be "spreading out our offense" which is apparently very important.

We are still a good team with a beer league caliber player on our top line... why bother seeing if an NHL caliber player on the top line would make our team better? We certainly couldn't try out a different combination for just one game.

If we replaced a beer league caliber player on our top line with an NHL player... sure the top line would score more points... but what about the other line that now gets stuck with Hyman... how will they get points?

You should go look for the beer league forum. Seriously.

 

[White Shadow]

I've seen this argument quite a bit in this thread, perhaps you can explain it to me - How does a line's potential for improvement negate its current successes and achievements? Just because a line could possibly be/get better 1) doesn't automatically mean that whatever you have isn't already excellent, and 2) doesn't automatically mean it's going to be better when you make those changes. You're aware that there is hard data that points to this trio being remarkably successful together, aren't you? We don't need to compare our own players with each other in order to determine that, we just need to look at that line's contributions compared to the contributions of other teams' top trios - If you do this, you'll see that Hyman-Matthews-Nylander is one of the most responsible units in the entire League (putting up the 3rd-highest combined Goal Differential in the League of any 3 Forwards on a single team) while putting up excellent 5v5 production, with each player only in their 2nd NHL season and still developing.

It's been touched on many, many times around here (by myself and others) but if you absolutely need to try and increase the production of guys like Matthews and Nylander, figure out what the problem is on the Powerplay, because the Kadri/Marner/JVR unit sees almost identical usage on the PP (15 seconds per game separates #1 JVR from #7 Nylander), yet puts up literally double the production.

Hell, Matthews is already 9th in the League in EVP/60 (1st in EVG/60) among all players with more than 10 games played this year - Comparatively, Matthews is ~186th in PPP/60 and 223rd in PPG/60 among only Forwards with the same Games Played. (Nylander is 48th in EVP/60, 18th in EVA/60, ~183rd in PPP/60, and 171st in PPA/60 among Forwards, using the same 10+ Games Played criteria)
(Hyman's ~140th-ranked EVP/60 looks ugly at first sight, but is better than the Sedins (both), Maroon, Zuccarello, Wennberg, Skinner, Nash, Hoffman, Henrique, O'Rielly, Stepan, Simmonds, Turris, Zetterberg, Thornton, Zibanejad, Koivu, Hornqvist, Oshie.... All while playing more SHTOI than any other Forward in the entire League, and bringing excellent forechecking abilities and defensive reliability)

If people really want Matthews and Willy to produce more so badly, it seems to be really, really, unavoidably, blatantly, crystal-clear, smack-you-in-the-face obvious what area of their game needs to be tinkered with. (If anyone still needs a hint: It's not their 5v5 unit.)

Zach Hyman is not the reason why Matthews and Nylander are not the cream of the NHL crop in 2017/18, and to continually complain about a responsible player like him, who is still producing well at Even Strength despite not being a "skill player", simply displays a real lack of awareness for how our team is currently being operated, or showcases a truly mis/uninformed bias towards a specific player or coach.

Do you think if the Matthews/Nylander PP was producing at last seasons success rate, the Hyman hate would end?

Let's say that PP was first overall because the 2nd unit was holding their own and because of this Matthews was on pace for 50 goals and 90 points with Willie on the cusp of 82 points.

Does the hate live on?

 

[IPS]

I guess he has not watched the last two cup wins as they have skill and offense spread out their forwards with their top line center playing with the least skilled players.

I guess we all watched a fairy tale..

Sheary, Guentzel and Hornqvist >>>> Hyman AINEC

 

[IBeL34f]

Do you think if the Matthews/Nylander PP was producing at last seasons success rate, the Hyman hate would end?

Let's say that PP was first overall because the 2nd unit was holding their own and because of this Matthews was on pace for 50 goals and 90 points with Willie on the cusp of 82 points.

Does the hate live on?

Really good question - Based on my experience around here, I'd say the hate would live on and another argument would be made.

Though, perhaps Matthews and Willy should be 120- and 100-point players respectively, and it won't matter what they do - as long as Hyman's with them, people may consider the line flawed.

It's pretty unfortunate how some people can't even let themselves enjoy all the good things we're seeing this year just because they disagree with one personnel decision.

 

[IPS]

Truly unbelievable the lengths people will go to in order to make Babcock out to be something he's not.

Hyman is a bottom-6 grinder under any other coach.

You can point out the problems with referencing his ES production to justify his usage is flawed, you can point out that how the "line balancing" argument is just not true, etc etc... you can do this 'til the cows come home and folks just won't budge.

There will come a time where Matthews/Nylander will have another fixture on LW when Hyman gets injured (not wishing injuries on anybody, chill out), and I well bet every red cent I have that their offensive production will reach a new level without him. I fully expect everyone on the pro top-line Hyman camp to admit their wrong when it happens.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Do you think if the Matthews/Nylander PP was producing at last seasons success rate, the Hyman hate would end?

Let's say that PP was first overall because the 2nd unit was holding their own and because of this Matthews was on pace for 50 goals and 90 points with Willie on the cusp of 82 points.

Does the hate live on?

Of course it does. "That could be me up there playing LW!!!"

No, but seriously, its gotten a bit silly.

 

[ACC1224]

Truly unbelievable the lengths people will go to in order to make Babcock out to be something he's not.

Hyman is a bottom-6 grinder under any other coach.

You can point out the problems with referencing his ES production to justify his usage is flawed, you can point out that how the "line balancing" argument is just not true, etc etc... you can do this 'til the cows come home and folks just won't budge.

There will come a time where Matthews/Nylander will have another fixture on LW when Hyman gets injured (not wishing injuries on anybody, chill out), and I well bet every red cent I have that their offensive production will reach a new level without him. I fully expect everyone on the pro top-line Hyman camp to admit their wrong when it happens.

That must be a really exclusive camp. How many members?

 

[Daisy Jane]

Of course it does. "That could be me up there playing LW!!!"

No, but seriously, its gotten a bit silly.

i laugh because it's so true.

 

[4thline]

A. The biggest thing with Hyman is he needs to play RW. Will be a much better support player from there as he'll actually be able to contribute to the transition and rush game.

B. The thing that differentiates stars/ truly great hockey players is there ability to get more out of lesser teammates.

C. In a cap world the thing that differentiates great teams in a cap world is their ability to get more out their roster.

Being able to ice a three line attack that is competent defensively is as close as you get to a sustainable trump card in a cap league (present day Pronger/Neids combo not withstanding). A three line attack requires your stars not only succeeding but elevating the play of support players. Matthews/Marner etc having at least one "bottom 6" guy on their line is a borderline necessity barring a never ending infusion of top 6 calibre players on ELC's. Bitching about it is pissing into the wind to protest indoor plumbing.

 

[White Shadow]

Truly unbelievable the lengths people will go to in order to make Babcock out to be something he's not.

Hyman is a bottom-6 grinder under any other coach.

You can point out the problems with referencing his ES production to justify his usage is flawed, you can point out that how the "line balancing" argument is just not true, etc etc... you can do this 'til the cows come home and folks just won't budge.

There will come a time where Matthews/Nylander will have another fixture on LW when Hyman gets injured (not wishing injuries on anybody, chill out), and I well bet every red cent I have that their offensive production will reach a new level without him. I fully expect everyone on the pro top-line Hyman camp to admit their wrong when it happens.

49 pages into this thread and you still think we (those of us who understand the genius of Hyman on that line) believe Hyman is the guy that maximizes Matthews/Nylander point production.

That is a head shaker.

 

[Ovate]

There will come a time where Matthews/Nylander will have another fixture on LW when Hyman gets injured (not wishing injuries on anybody, chill out), and I well bet every red cent I have that their offensive production will reach a new level without him. I fully expect everyone on the pro top-line Hyman camp to admit their wrong when it happens.

If you still think that the reason people want Hyman on the top line because he increases Matthew's and Nylander's offensive production, you're deliberately ignoring the arguments in support of that line.

 

[IPS]

If you still think that the reason people want Hyman on the top line because he increases Matthew's and Nylander's offensive production, you're deliberately ignoring the arguments in support of that line.

Do you follow along?

I'm fully aware it's because of the "line balance" nonsense that's been debunked several times.

 

[White Shadow]

Really good question - Based on my experience around here, I'd say the hate would live on and another argument would be made.

Though, perhaps Matthews and Willy should be 120- and 100-point players respectively, and it won't matter what they do - as long as Hyman's with them, people may consider the line flawed.

It's pretty unfortunate how some people can't even let themselves enjoy all the good things we're seeing this year just because they disagree with one personnel decision.

I think so too. It's blind hatred that stems from not understanding how the deployment of stars has changed.

 

[saltming]

Truly unbelievable the lengths people will go to in order to make Babcock out to be something he's not.

Hyman is a bottom-6 grinder under any other coach.

You can point out the problems with referencing his ES production to justify his usage is flawed, you can point out that how the "line balancing" argument is just not true, etc etc... you can do this 'til the cows come home and folks just won't budge.

There will come a time where Matthews/Nylander will have another fixture on LW when Hyman gets injured (not wishing injuries on anybody, chill out), and I well bet every red cent I have that their offensive production will reach a new level without him. I fully expect everyone on the pro top-line Hyman camp to admit their wrong when it happens.

Absolutely nobody has said that they would not produce more wit a better scorer on their line.
Are you just not readung replies and the other posts or just not able to understand the counter argument?

Edit
I see I'm not the only one that's noticed your apparent lack of comprehension. Just saying you understand it is not enough. Maybe argue against the points being made against your argument and things will progress