Hmmm .... Zach Hyman

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Daisy Jane

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i truly don't see what the issue is. I honestly don't.
you have a line that is really good, and it was really consistent and they all have chemistry and like playing with one another. and it's grumble grumble grumble, because one of them isn't as sexy as the other two, even though there really isn't anything wrong with the line other than not liking that player. he's not hindering the line, he's not hindering the other players, he goes out and does his thing.


and the team isn't hindered from him being on that line too.

i honestly feel out of everything to quibble about - this one goes in the the "mountain, molehill," pile.
 

CantLoseWithMatthews

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It's not just Hyman that he hasn't moved, it's the LWs in general. Aside from the Leo move, that is the extent of his line juggling that doesn't involve injury.

JVR had a very brief stint on the 4th line but has been stapled to Bozak. Marleau only gets moved to play center, otw he's stapled to Kadri.

Marleau hasn't played with Bozak or Matthews except for those stacked lines coming off the PK. Same can be said for JVR...he doesn't play with Matthews or Kadri.
yeah but nobody is saying that the JVR-Bozak line is the Scar-Jo of lines, so who cares if they alternate wingers? Apparently the top line is amazing, so it shouldn't be changed.
 

PuckMagi

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i truly don't see what the issue is. I honestly don't.
you have a line that is really good, and it was really consistent and they all have chemistry and like playing with one another. and it's grumble grumble grumble, because one of them isn't as sexy as the other two, even though there really isn't anything wrong with the line other than not liking that player. he's not hindering the line, he's not hindering the other players, he goes out and does his thing.


and the team isn't hindered from him being on that line too.

i honestly feel out of everything to quibble about - this one goes in the the "mountain, molehill," pile.

He is absolutely hindering the line.

If we had a line of Nylander - Matthews - Marner ... I think all 3 guys would be in the top 5 in the league for points (or points per game in the case of Matthews).

Look at the scoring leaders in this league... Kucherov with 93 points... Malkin with 89 points... MacKinnon with 89... McDavid with 89, Stamkos with 84, Girous with 84.

Where are the Leafs? We've got Marner in 42nd place with 60 points... Nylander in 72nd place with 52 points. And we're a high scoring team. How come we don't have any guys near the top of the league? Even if Matthews played every game, I doubt he would be near the top of the league in points like he should be.

The main reason why Matthews, Nylander, and Marner aren't all in that top tier (or really anywhere near there) is because of Babcock's horrible line combos. Look at Marner. He didn't work with JVR and Bozak. He clearly didn't work on the 4th line. Once you put him with Marleau and Kadri, look at all the points he got. Nylander and Matthews aren't in that top tier either because they've been stuck with the anchor Hyman all year.

If Babcock actually put together a real top 6, then we would have several players in the top 30 for points (or even top 10). Not only that, we would probably be ahead of Tampa or very close to them. It would make us a better team if we didn't have guys like Hyman and Komarov playing in our top 6. We've seen how much better we were once we moved Komarov down to the 4th line. The effect will be MUCH greater if we move Hyman to the 4th line also.
 

CantLoseWithMatthews

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He is absolutely hindering the line.

If we had a line of Nylander - Matthews - Marner ... I think all 3 guys would be in the top 5 in the league for points (or points per game in the case of Matthews).

Look at the scoring leaders in this league... Kucherov with 93 points... Malkin with 89 points... MacKinnon with 89... McDavid with 89, Stamkos with 84, Girous with 84.

Where are the Leafs? We've got Marner in 42nd place with 60 points... Nylander in 72nd place with 52 points. And we're a high scoring team. How come we don't have any guys near the top of the league? Even if Matthews played every game, I doubt he would be near the top of the league in points like he should be.

The main reason why Matthews, Nylander, and Marner aren't all in that top tier (or really anywhere near there) is because of Babcock's horrible line combos. Look at Marner. He didn't work with JVR and Bozak. He clearly didn't work on the 4th line. Once you put him with Marleau and Kadri, look at all the points he got. Nylander and Matthews aren't in that top tier either because they've been stuck with the anchor Hyman all year.

If Babcock actually put together a real top 6, then we would have several players in the top 30 for points (or even top 10). Not only that, we would probably be ahead of Tampa or very close to them. It would make us a better team if we didn't have guys like Hyman and Komarov playing in our top 6. We've seen how much better we were once we moved Komarov down to the 4th line. The effect will be MUCH greater if we move Hyman to the 4th line also.
Nylander's and Matthews' offensive production hurt from the PP, not from 5v5 play. Hell, Matthews is still #6 in the league in 5v5 goals despite missing 19 games. He was #1 last year. What more do you want?
 

PuckMagi

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Nylander's and Matthews' offensive production hurt from the PP, not from 5v5 play. Hell, Matthews is still #6 in the league in 5v5 goals despite missing 19 games. He was #1 last year. What more do you want?
How is this an argument?

Nylander is 37th in the league in even strength points.

Matthews is 42nd (but obviously missed lots of games). However, in points per game... Matthews is still only 36th in the league!!!!

Marner is 75th in the league in even strength points.

So what is your point here? If it was just a lack of PP points like you are claiming, then why are they so low in even strength points (and points per game in Matthews's case)?

We have the best offensive talent in the league... and yet our guys are nowhere near the top.

The reason why they're not anywhere near the top of the league like they should be is because of Babcock's idiotic line combos. Once he put Marner with a scoring center, the line heated up. As soon as he removes Hyman and replaces him with basically anyone (Leivo, Johnsson, Kapanen, etc.) then Nylander and Matthews start racking up the points.

Look at Nathan MacKinnon this year... he's only played 64 games... but he has 38 goals and 51 assists for 89 points. I believe that Matthews is better than MacKinnon (and we have better wingers) and can put up better numbers than that. The only reason he isn't putting up those kind of numbers is because of Babcock and Hyman. You put Matthews with Marner and someone other than Hyman and it's all over... we win the cup because no one will be able to stop them.
 

CantLoseWithMatthews

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How is this an argument?

Nylander is 37th in the league in even strength points.

Matthews is 42nd (but obviously missed lots of games). However, in points per game... Matthews is still only 36th in the league!!!!

Marner is 75th in the league in even strength points.

So what is your point here? If it was just a lack of PP points like you are claiming, then why are they so low in even strength points (and points per game in Matthews's case)?

We have the best offensive talent in the league... and yet our guys are nowhere near the top.

The reason why they're not anywhere near the top of the league like they should be is because of Babcock's idiotic line combos. Once he put Marner with a scoring center, the line heated up. As soon as he removes Hyman and replaces him with basically anyone (Leivo, Johnsson, Kapanen, etc.) then Nylander and Matthews start racking up the points.

Look at Nathan MacKinnon this year... he's only played 64 games... but he has 38 goals and 51 assists for 89 points. I believe that Matthews is better than MacKinnon (and we have better wingers) and can put up better numbers than that. The only reason he isn't putting up those kind of numbers is because of Babcock and Hyman. You put Matthews with Marner and someone other than Hyman and it's all over... we win the cup because no one will be able to stop them.
Matthews is low in points per game because of powerplay production, as I've said. If he's #6 in the league in 5v5 goals despite missing over a quarter of the season, and was #1 last year, it's pretty tough to think it's where he's being hindered. Also, Nylander is #5 in the league in 5v5 assists. if he's not scoring goals, it's his fault.
 
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PuckMagi

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Matthews is low in points per game because of powerplay production, as I've said. If he's #6 in the league in 5v5 goals despite missing over a quarter of the season, and was #1 last year, it's pretty tough to think it's where he's being hindered. Also, Nylander is #5 in the league in 5v5 assists. if he's not scoring goals, it's his fault.

maybe if Hyman could make a pass, Nylander would score more.
 
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Gabriel426

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Hyman just need to drive to the net more, once he starts doing that, the top line will be much better.
 

Donkey Puck

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Its really weird. Its like the entire team is structured to make Hyman look like an NHL player.

Hyman landing in Toronto was a weird set of circumstances. I mean what are the odds he lands in a city where his dad owns half of GTA minor hockey?

What a fortunate set of circumstances that Mathews landed in Toronto. Weird that Hyman and Mathews appear joined at the hip however. What is that all about?
 

Daisy Jane

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Our team is 4th in the league in goals for. I don’t think goals is at all our issue

Having a line of Matthews, Marner, and say Marleau, won’t automatically win is the Stanley Cup.

It’s shocking these need to be said

seriously.
basically the complaint is. "well matthews + nylander can have more points."

What about the 53 games he's played with Matthews? he only has 8 goals at 5v5. At a certain point, it's time to stop blaming Hyman for everything going wrong. Nylander has to be better

people around these parts don't really like doing that regarding players they like. it tends to be everyone else's fault.
 

Nithoniniel

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Some turn on him, I just realistically assess him.
Except it isn't so realistic. As I pointed out, Hyman does better or equal to most in similar situations, including high-profile players. You asserted that he's doing poorly, and another option can do much better. That would only be a realistic assertion if we had a high-end talent to replace him with. We don't. If TJ Oshie doesn't do much better in similar circumstances, then who on our team would? Marner perhaps, but he is needed elsewhere.
 
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hotpaws

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seriously.
basically the complaint is. "well matthews + nylander can have more points."



people around these parts don't really like doing that regarding players they like. it tends to be everyone else's fault.

I can only speak for myself but my main compliant is i don't think Hyman on our top line maximizes our potential line up and gives us the best chance to potentially win the cup .

playoff hockey is usually tight and games may be decided or maybe just momentum may change based on converting your limited scoring chances so excuse me if i don't have much faith in Hyman converting that one scoring opportunity he may get that may lead to a win or a momentum swing in our favor

yup people back there favs and many also back the coach/mgmts every decision and the best example of this was the huge hoard of Burke supporters in our forum
 
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ACC1224

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I generally agree with what you’re saying and am pleased where we are in our rebuild. Babcock definitely has played a part in what we’ve accomplished thus far. But, I as a fan, reserve the right to question some of his decisions, particularly this one involving Hyman. He’s a good coach, but not perfect and his stubborness has been well documented. Every coach wants to win and feel their decisions are right. But even Babcock has made changes that readers pushed for long before he decided to (Komarov to the 4th line, Martin to the press box). Eventually he’ll come around on this one too.

This is interesting, who has documented his stubborness?
 

Daisy Jane

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then why bother posting ?

well like I said. I never understand why if you agree with what's going on, you're "toeing" the company line or a sheep or whatever. why can't it just be. you agree.

i, personally don't have an issue with that line. (I also don't have a problem with hyman). I feel personally, it allows to spread out our threats down the line up and make every line a threat vs. loading up everyone on one line. that's our greatest strength. (i also feel all this harping on Hyman is really unfair, and i think statements such as "well if he was on the 4th line we'd like him more" is a cop out. I don't have issues with people not liking him, that's fine, but he's not a plug, he's not 'detrimental' he doesn't have stone hands or anything like that. he's just literally not as high end talented as Matty and Will are. but that line works and liking someone predicated on what line they play is dumbo - because imo they are doing the same thing regardless).


If Babcock were to move him off that line, I wouldn't have an issue with it, because he's making line better. (which would mean the line wasn't producing, or he wanted to get another look at something and liked it better) and accepting that doesn't mean you are jumping onto the next thing babcock did. but again for me. worrying about who plays where, when the line does well, and we're producing, etc, is very minimal (and i think this year, even when we weren't considering the youth it wasn't a big as a deal as people made it. if it were like next year, or the after when you' expect more consistency then i'd have more than a say - because also by then i'd assume that the team is "finished'. I don't think this team is done at all yet, thus worrying whom is where makes no difference to me.

If New GM (Dubas, Hunter, Fenton, Futa, whomever) decided to trade Hyman, it would make sense to me, (but i've also said if they moved anyone not named Matthews, I'd be okay with it, because they are getting pieces again to make us better). for me, and I've been consistent with this forever and if people want to make this equal me being a sheep - fine - unless it's fundementally different from what the organization is preaching - or if it clearly isn't working (and this is supposed to be the final product) or it literally isn't working and enough time has passed, then i'd quibble. (heck. i've been on record, that I don't agree with a lot of the stuff Babcock is doing now personally, but I can see why he's doing it, so at the end of the day, I can understand why he's doing it, even though I don't agree with it).

it doesn't make people a hypocrite or wishy washy or just following the party line or whatever. i don't think a lot of it has to be verbalized to get to that point, though around here it's like you have to.

there's nothing wrong with being the opposite either but i often feel it's done to be done, (thus people can throw out the "well, it's okay to criticise" thing at you. which yes it is. but it's also nice to point out what the end goal is going to be - or at least what the hope is, which I try to do and a lot of others around here too and trusting that process. that doesn't make me a sheep or blindly following management, imo. See: my everlasting hatred of Brian Burke. and even then, I could see some of his reasoning).
 
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saltming

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How is this an argument?

Nylander is 37th in the league in even strength points.

Matthews is 42nd (but obviously missed lots of games). However, in points per game... Matthews is still only 36th in the league!!!!

Marner is 75th in the league in even strength points.

So what is your point here? If it was just a lack of PP points like you are claiming, then why are they so low in even strength points (and points per game in Matthews's case)?

We have the best offensive talent in the league... and yet our guys are nowhere near the top.

The reason why they're not anywhere near the top of the league like they should be is because of Babcock's idiotic line combos. Once he put Marner with a scoring center, the line heated up. As soon as he removes Hyman and replaces him with basically anyone (Leivo, Johnsson, Kapanen, etc.) then Nylander and Matthews start racking up the points.

Look at Nathan MacKinnon this year... he's only played 64 games... but he has 38 goals and 51 assists for 89 points. I believe that Matthews is better than MacKinnon (and we have better wingers) and can put up better numbers than that. The only reason he isn't putting up those kind of numbers is because of Babcock and Hyman. You put Matthews with Marner and someone other than Hyman and it's all over... we win the cup because no one will be able to stop them.
Of all the players you've listed only 1 of their teams is ahead of us in the standings. Thats the point!
How many scoring trophies to Datsyuk and Zetterberg have and how many cup rings do they have?
The name on the front of the jersey is more important than the name on the back.
Thats the line between the 2 factions on this topic, you and thes taunch detractors only seem to care about matthews individual stats while the others want the team to be the best it can be.
That's why most agree the matthews line could core more if hyman were replaced with say marner or jvr but we all say it would male the team a little less dangerous.
Its like toronto maple leafs fans vs Auston Matthews fans
 

White Shadow

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Because we spread the offense out. Overall we’d have less goals if they were all on the same line.
Amazing how so many cannot grasp this concept. Even if the overall offense is unchanged, how about the overall goal differential of the team?

There is more than one poster in this thread that would rather have an Art Ross champion than a Cup contender.
 
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ACC1224

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well like I said. I never understand why if you agree with what's going on, you're "toeing" the company line or a sheep or whatever. why can't it just be. you agree.

.

That sentiment has always been pretty funny. :laugh:

P.S. you forgot to add something about "kool-aid"
 
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