HFBoards Top 32 Centers - #3

[wetcoast]

Depends, if we had a time machine and switched them 3 or 4 years ago imo it's a different conversation.

MacK is a Kobe Bryant / Mark Messier-level psycho. Personal chef, doesn't drink pop, yells at his teammates every time they mess up in practice etc. Great player on the ice but seems like he has an even bigger impact on his teammates. The perfect guy for a team that goes from bad to contender (like both COL and EDM these past few years) because he makes his teammates better.

If MacK were on the Oilers (instead of Drai) would the Oilers be a better team (esp in the playoffs)? We'll never really know, but I think so. At the very least it's a factor that needs to be considered

Liked your post, didn't agree with all of it but huge fan of Neil Peart.

 

[abo9]

Depends, if we had a time machine and switched them 3 or 4 years ago imo it's a different conversation.

MacK is a Kobe Bryant / Mark Messier-level psycho. Personal chef, doesn't drink pop, yells at his teammates every time they mess up in practice etc. Great player on the ice but seems like he has an even bigger impact on his teammates. The perfect guy for a team that goes from bad to contender (like both COL and EDM these past few years) because he makes his teammates better.

If MacK were on the Oilers (instead of Drai) would the Oilers be a better team (esp in the playoffs)? We'll never really know, but I think so. At the very least it's a factor that needs to be considered

Thats going heavy into the hypotheticals haha Wasn't it the impact of Patrick Roy that a few players mentioned as having brought "a winners mentality"?

Who knows, maybe Sakic as a GM had enough "skill" to surround Mack by individuals who thrived in that environment - whereas the Oilers management has been clueless for yeaaaaars.

Or maybe you're right and Benoit Pouliot would have exploded under Mack's leadership

 

[Phil Kessels Hot Dog]

Draisatl benefits from playing with McDavid, but Mackinnon doesn't benefit from playing with Makar who is also better than McDavid.

~ Avs Fans

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

I'll go with Leon here.

 

[Rengorlex]

If there's anyone benefitting from better linemates it's 100% MacKinnon. Draisaitl has spent very significant minutes dragging linemates that would be in the press box for Colorado.

 

[missionAvs]

It's MacK/Drai followed by MacK/Drai and then it starts getting interesting.

 

[Steven Toast]

4th season in a row that Draisaitl has outscored MacKinnon in both points and goals. But MacK is still considered the better player by most (although the gap has shrunk over last year).

Draisaitl has a art ross, hart, and lindsay to his name.

MacK has a calder, a byng, and a team award to his name.

Draisaitl in his career has points finishes of 1, 2, 4, 4, 8. Goals finishes of 2, 2, 4, 4. Assist finishes of 1, 2, 9.

MacK in his carrer has points finishes of 5, 5, 7, 8. Goals finishes of 6, 9, 9. Assist finishes of 5, 6.

On paper it is crystal clear who has had the better career so far. But MacK has had a much better team constructed around him and is seen as the better player because he was the 2nd or 3rd best player on a cup winning team.

He is one of the most overrated stars in the NHL, he is a star no doubt but overrated.

 

[GOilers88]

MacK, methinks.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

4th season in a row that Draisaitl has outscored MacKinnon in both points and goals. But MacK is still considered the better player by most (although the gap has shrunk over last year).

Draisaitl has a art ross, hart, and lindsay to his name.

MacK has a calder, a byng, and a team award to his name.

Draisaitl in his career has points finishes of 1, 2, 4, 4, 8. Goals finishes of 2, 2, 4, 4. Assist finishes of 1, 2, 9.

MacK in his carrer has points finishes of 5, 5, 7, 8. Goals finishes of 6, 9, 9. Assist finishes of 5, 6.

On paper it is crystal clear who has had the better career so far. But MacK has had a much better team constructed around him and is seen as the better player because he was the 2nd or 3rd best player on a cup winning team.

He is one of the most overrated stars in the NHL, he is a star no doubt but overrated.

I like how people take away from MacK based on the team around him, when his 2 best regular seasons were a) when he was dragging a historically bad team out of the dumpster without Makar b) when the Avs had some of the most man games lost in the league, and he spent more time with random line combinations than with the Rantanen/Landeskog trio together

He's proven to be able to raise his game when the team needs him to and produce the same way no matter what happens around him. If anything, you could probably give him a little bit of flack for not always playing his best when the teams been healthy & dominant, which is understandable when the team is winning anyway. Drai and McDavid have to always be on top of their game for the Oilers to win, which means they need to squeeze more out of themselves.

Now I'm not saying playing for a worse team would make MacK the best player in the world or anything asinine like that. Point is these team comparisons don't often work as thought when it comes to comparing players abilities.

 

[Steven Toast]

I like how people take away from MacK based on the team around him, when his 2 best regular seasons were a) when he was dragging a historically bad team out of the dumpster without Makar b) when the Avs had some of the most man games lost in the league, and he spent more time with random line combinations than with the Rantanen/Landeskog trio together

He's proven to be able to raise his game when the team needs him to and produce the same way no matter what happens around him. If anything, you could probably give him a little bit of flack for not always playing his best when the teams been healthy & dominant, which is understandable when the team is winning anyway. Drai and McDavid have to always be on top of their game for the Oilers to win, which means they need to squeeze more out of themselves.

Now I'm not saying playing for a worse team would make MacK the best player in the world or anything asinine like that. Point is these team comparisons don't often work as thought when it comes to comparing players abilities.

The last time the Avs missed the playoffs MacK had 53 points in a full 82 games. The last time the Oilers missed Draisaitl had 50 goals and 105 points in 82 games.

MacK has had substantially better rosters around him for his career. This point cannot be overlooked.

 

[McJedi]

After macks first 37 playoff games he had 51 points. That's without mcdavid. Let's see drai average 1.5ppg over the next 33 games.

That poster said Mack is the most overrated rated player in the league. That is blatantly false.

The most overrated player in the league? Interesting post idea.

It’s neither MacKinnon or Drai.

Nurse is a decent choice though. He’s definitely on the top 10 list of most overpaid by AAV/league worst contract

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

The last time the Avs missed the playoffs MacK had 53 points in a full 82 games. The last time the Oilers missed Draisaitl had 50 goals and 105 points in 82 games.

MacK has had substantially better rosters around him for his career. This point cannot be overlooked.

How does that have to do with anything? It was one of the worst teams ever seen on NHL ice. We literally had players turning their backs on the goal to pass the puck on a breakaway. They knew they were going to lose every night basically. MacK harnessed that year and used it as fuel to become the player he is today. Just like Draisaitl wanted to match McDavid when he was outproducing Drai by a lot during the first few years. If we're going to compare these guys, lets at least stick to the seasons that are relevant to today.

Avs have been better sure, but like I said better rosters don't automatically equal to more production on an individual level. Drai has been playing wing to the best center in the planet for years, even when he's centering his own line he's getting shifts on a regular basis there. That's something unique no other star center has the luxury of, let alone playing together on the PP. You look at people like Kovalchuk and Hossa who had their best offensive years in Atlanta where the team sucked. Both had more team success on better teams, especially Hossa, but it didn't increase their offensive output. For some guys it may be the other way around. It's just impossible to quantify these things.

Going with Drai over MacK is fine, but stating teams as a key factor is just silly. If Draisaitl had to drag the entire team on his back and was still producing the same numbers, then it would be much more relevant. But he's been in a fine situation to put up points, even if the team hasn't been very good at times. It's more in the team success department where he's been missing out due to worse rosters, and I'm not going to hold MacK's cup over him for that reason.

 

[Gurglesons]

I like how people take away from MacK based on the team around him, when his 2 best regular seasons were a) when he was dragging a historically bad team out of the dumpster without Makar b) when the Avs had some of the most man games lost in the league, and he spent more time with random line combinations than with the Rantanen/Landeskog trio together

He's proven to be able to raise his game when the team needs him to and produce the same way no matter what happens around him. If anything, you could probably give him a little bit of flack for not always playing his best when the teams been healthy & dominant, which is understandable when the team is winning anyway. Drai and McDavid have to always be on top of their game for the Oilers to win, which means they need to squeeze more out of themselves.

Now I'm not saying playing for a worse team would make MacK the best player in the world or anything asinine like that. Point is these team comparisons don't often work as thought when it comes to comparing players abilities.

What do you consider MacKinnon’s 2 best seasons? Because from my seat MacKinnon’s best season had Makar scoring 50 points.

 

[Steven Toast]

How does that have to do with anything?

The roster you play with impact how well you play. Last time MacK didn't have a good team around him he didn't hit 20 goals...

MacK harnessed that year and used it as fuel to become the player he is today.

Source?

If we're going to compare these guys, lets at least stick to the seasons that are relevant to today.

I already mentioned that Drai has outscored MacK in goals and points for the last 4 seasons in a row, I will add Drai has more assists in 3 of the last 4 seasons.

Avs have been better sure, but like I said better rosters don't automatically equal to more production on an individual level. Drai has been playing wing to the best center in the planet for years, even when he's centering his own line he's getting shifts on a regular basis there.

Didn't you just say that roster doesn't mean anything? Stay consistent.

Going with Drai over MacK is fine, but stating teams as a key factor is just silly.

I never had it listed as the key factor, it came last in my first comment. Its the one part of my initial comment you are even mentioning. You are the one trying to make appear to be my "key factor", fairly dishonest if done intentionally.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

What do you consider MacKinnon’s 2 best seasons? Because from my seat MacKinnon’s best season had Makar scoring 50 points.

17-18 and 19-20 were the seasons he played with the most passion in my opinion. Both years had extra motivating factors, whether it was trying to become a respectable team or stepping up due to injuries.

The year Makar scored 50 was 19-20, it was nice to have Cale in the mix that year. But due to the injuries, he had the 2nd most points on the team, meaning MacK led the team in scoring by 43 points.

At an individual level I think they were the best years, we can look at the last couple seasons and say he's been producing at the same pace, but the team has been running for the Presidents Trophy all the way to the end. Sometimes the winning and depth scoring masks those uninspiring games.

 

[Gurglesons]

17-18 and 19-20 were the seasons he played with the most passion in my opinion. Both years had extra motivating factors, whether it was trying to become a respectable team or stepping up due to injuries.

The year Makar scored 50 was 19-20, it was nice to have Cale in the mix that year. But due to the injuries, he had the 2nd most points on the team, meaning MacK led the team in scoring by 43 points.

At an individual level I think they were the best years, we can look at the last couple seasons and say he's been producing at the same pace, but the team has been running for the Presidents Trophy all the way to the end. Sometimes the winning and depth scoring masks those uninspiring games.

19-20 MacKinnon rocked. I think we've seen a slight decline from that player though.

Drai we have seen continuously dominating since that Art Ross season.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

The players you play with impact how well you play. Last time MacK didn't have a good team around him he didn't hit 20 goals...

The Avs didn't have a good team the first 2 years they made the playoffs.. There was no 2nd line, EJ and Tyson Barrie were the teams 2 best defensemen. 17-18 they made it in the last game of the regular season because of the Blues struggles and MacK's Hart caliber year.. 18-19 they went through a stretch of 3 wins in 21 games, and I still remember Landeskog wondering how they're even in the playoff race still. It was a weak year for the West and that's the only reason they made it. 19-20 was the first year when the team looked good on paper going in.

Source?

Well it's a pretty well known story how he took it upon himself not to suck anymore, both at an individual level and team changing the standards in the room. Go listen to some podcasts or whatever from a few years ago.

I already mentioned that Drai has outscored MacK in goals and points for the last 4 seasons in a row, I will add Drai has more assists in 3 of the last 4 seasons.

And if that's how you like to rate players then it's fine. I don't see the point of bringing up teams trying to boost your argument.

Didn't you just say that roster doesn't mean anything? Stay consistent.

Of course it means something. What I've been saying is you can't quantify what it means to have better team overall, versus best player in the world. Both are good situations to put up points in, just different from a team success point of view.

 

[Steven Toast]

And if that's how you like to rate players then it's fine. I don't see the point of bringing up teams trying to boost your argument.

Its a very standard way to lol, and when one player so clearly dominates the other by totals its a no brainer which is better, unless its MacK of course. Hence him being a very overrated star.

Well it's a pretty well known story how he took it upon himself not to suck anymore, both at an individual level and team changing the standards in the room. Go listen to some podcasts or whatever from a few years ago.

Ah so no source, thanks. Either way that point was a bunch of nonsense no offense.

You seem to rate players on eye test, vague quotes, and im not sure what else. Nothing very convincing from you on why MacK should be considered the better of these two players.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

19-20 MacKinnon rocked. I think we've seen a slight decline from that player though.

Drai we have seen continuously dominating since that Art Ross season.

I agree, and I'm sure most Avs fans would say Drai has been better the last couple years. MacK hasn't always been on top of his game, but he can turn it up when needed which is sort of the annoying part for these comparisons. We'll probably see more of that this year if the 2C situation is a problem.

 

[Steven Toast]

Another facet for why Drai is the much better player, his multi tool approach to attacking. He is simultaneously one of the best shooters, passers, and puck protectors in the NHL. Depending on the situation he will use whichever tool is best for the job.

He suffers a serious high ankle sprain, the type of injury that sidelines most players? His game evolves to depend more on puck protection and passing with his speed and shot gone. He proceeds to set playoff records and have one of the all time playoff runs on one leg.

Imagine MacK with a high ankle sprain, he would be a much less effective attacker as much of his offense comes off the rush.

Draisaitl will also likely age more gracefully than Mack due to these factors.

 

[Fataldogg]

Tha


That's propped up by a great 2ppg playoff run this year with 32 in 16

Draisaitl hasn't gone as deep as Mackinnon and played easier playoff teams

Mackinnon also was the Avs 1C in their cup win and helped sweep Drai/McDavid in the WCF

Whether or not his team has gone as deep is irrelevant. MacKinnon plays for an infinitely better team.

If you swapped Draisaitl for MacKinnon, Draisaitl would have a Cup and MacKinnon still wouldn't have won squat.

People on here pretend like the team you play for doesn't make a difference. Maybe if Draisaitl played on a team with Landeskog, Makar, Rantanen, Kadri, etc and a slew of top tier depth, he could have gone further.

Draisailt did the best he could given the circumstances and that's being held against him because the Oilers front office is incompetent.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Its a very standard way to lol, and when one player so clearly dominates the other by totals its a no brainer which is better, unless its MacK of course. Hence him being a very overrated star.

Ah so no source, thanks. Either way that point was a bunch of nonsense no offense.

You seem to rate players on eye test, vague quotes, and im not sure what else. Nothing very convincing from you on why MacK should be considered the better of these two players.

Not sure what you're on about, I never said you should vote MacK. The entire discussion I started was about the impact of the teams, and then you brought up something from 6 years ago which was completely irrelevant to anything when the players weren't even done developing.

If you're not up to snuff with the Avs/MacK's history, it's not my problem. I think most people know it very well around here and there's been threads, articles, podcasts, all kinds of stuff for the non Avs fans. If you're interested why do I have to do the digging for you? Do it yourself.

 

[AvroArrow]

I don’t care about regular season bling. Matthews has not shown any pedigree in the yoffs

Therefore Kadri >> Matthews am I right

 

[McJedi]

Draisatl benefits from playing with McDavid, but Mackinnon doesn't benefit from playing with Makar who is also better than McDavid.

~ Avs Fans

Makar is better than McDavid. Got that part right.

 

[Steven Toast]

Not sure what you're on about, I never said you should vote MacK. The entire discussion I started was about the impact of the teams, and then you brought up something from 6 years ago which was completely irrelevant to anything when the players weren't even done developing.

If you're not up to snuff with the Avs/MacK's history, it's not my problem. I think most people know it very well around here and there's been threads, articles, podcasts, all kinds of stuff for the non Avs fans. If you're interested why do I have to do the digging for you? Do it yourself.

How a player performed when they had a weak roster isn't irrelevant, sorry to break it to you.

But I would agree that a player out performing the other for the last 4 seasons in a row is more relevant.

Apparently you are not up to snuff on it either... I asked for a source for a comment you made, you can't provide one. Thats on you.

But either way some quote in a podcast about how motivated a player is or whatever is deeply secondary to on ice performance. In that regard Draisaitl easily trumps MacKinnon as I have shown.