Has the Red Wings struggle changed your opinion of Yzerman as a GM?

[WarriorofTime]

That I hope your “suck until we are good” strat blows up in your face

I disagree, it's the most timed and true way in the salary cap era.

 

[FMichael]

He should have bottomed out more. This isn't even debatable. The whole "we tried the bottom out thing and we lost the lottery, so we gave up", getting Nate Danielson instead of Bedard/Carlsson/Fantilli/Smith/Michkov when they have like two players on the roster that factor into the long-term was boneheaded. A potential star forward is way more important for the Red Wings than David Perron's 24 goals.

I must admit to being impressed at your consitency of bad takes...

 

[WarriorofTime]

I must admit to being impressed at your consitency of bad takes...

Rather than insult me, you could try and have a discussion (this is a discussion board) and explain why you disagree

 

[Hale The Villain]

It can't be understated how terrible a shape the franchise was in when he took over.

Larkin, Bertuzzi, Hronek and Rasmussen were pretty much the only decent young pieces in the organization, and they had just blown a top 5 pick on Zadina. They had one of the worst outlooks of any team in the league when he became GM. That's now the case now whatsoever.

He's generally done a good job getting excellent value via trade, but his signings have been hit and miss and while the Wings have a nice future ahead of them after 5 years of sucking and the loaded pool of prospects that comes with that, I don't know if they'll be a legit contender.

He jumped the gun last offseason committing a fair amount of money on Copp, Perron, Chariot and Husso, all of whom were signed to multi-year deals and therefore weren't able to be jettisoned at the deadline like Bertuzzi or Hronek. More than that, they probably helped the Wings win just enough games to lose out on a high-end prospect and instead end up with Danielson, who I'm not huge on. Had they swung for the fences on a guy like Wood or Benson, it wouldn't be as much of an issue, but as of now I don't know if they'll have enough high-end scorers to contend.

I liked a lot of the moves he made this offseason. Got a 26YR old top line sniper in DeBrincat for cheap and signed him to a reasonable deal. Adding Petry, Sprong and Kostin for cheap/nothing was also impressive, but spending 8.5M on Compher and Holl over the next 3 years was really dumb and indefensible. Add that to already spending over 20M on Copp, Chariot, Husso, Fabbri and Maatta and that's a lot of money wasted on mediocre talent that may end up getting in the way of some of their excellent prospects coming through the pipeline.

Wings should be able to develop into a perennial playoff team for a long time, and a lot of that has to do with Yzerman's work, but I do question if he's built a legitimate Stanley Cup contender, which is what you'd hope for after sucking as many years as the Wings have. I think their hope, outside of a hitting the jackpot on a few of their dozen quality prospects, is convincing some Michigan boys to come home to put the team over the top. Kyle Connor is a Michigan born former UoM Wolverine that is a UFA in 3 years and I'm thinking Yzerman may be banking on him coming home. Hellebuyck was born in Michigan as well and acquring him may put the Wings into a playoff spot, but right now they look like a team that will probably be on the outside looking in next season.

 

[FMichael]

Literally anyone on this forum can construct a team to finish in the bottom of the standings and let the scouts pick the BPA. Yzerman certainly hasn't done anything to establish himself as a top GM so many years in with Detroit

I mean, it is the GM's job TO get those players. Like all these teams are not finishing bottom of the standings for fun. They are making sure they get the best odds at franchise talent which is usually at the top of the draft.

All those years of losing and they didn't even bottom out. Basically every cup team bottomed out and got that one superstar

Found the runner up of bad takes...

 

[The Red Line]

Kinda hilarious that this thread is full of fans of teams who have had tons of lottery luck and STILL suck and miss the playoffs, but they criticize the direction of the Wings. lol these threads are going to look so stupid so soon. Hell, they already do.

 

[FMichael]

Kinda hilarious that this thread is full of fans of teams who have had tons of lottery luck and STILL suck and miss the playoffs, but they criticize the direction of the Wings. lol these threads are going to look so stupid so soon. Hell, they already do.

Since we're still a few months away from the start of the season - the entertainment value of some posters here is impressive!

 

[Aladyyn]

Kinda hilarious that this thread is full of fans of teams who have had tons of lottery luck and STILL suck and miss the playoffs, but they criticize the direction of the Wings. lol these threads are going to look so stupid so soon. Hell, they already do.

Some of us have lots of experience with failed rebuilds

 

[Pavels Dog]

He should have bottomed out more. This isn't even debatable. The whole "we tried the bottom out thing and we lost the lottery, so we gave up", getting Nate Danielson instead of Bedard/Carlsson/Fantilli/Smith/Michkov when they have like two players on the roster that factor into the long-term was boneheaded. A potential star forward is way more important for the Red Wings than David Perron's 24 goals.

You've made your stance clear. They weren't trading Larkin (that would have been an EA sports be a GM move, not a realistic real-life move), so bottoming out any more than they did was difficult to not say impossible.

What gets me though is how willing you are to stake your claim that all of Bedard, Carlsson, Fantilli, Smith and Michkov will hit their max potential and be those elite players. It just so rarely works out that there are 5 elite superstars in the top 10 of a draft. And even more rare that it's exactly the players you expect, with no disappointments and no surprises.

What if, and I know this is difficult to imagine even just as a "omg that would be the craziest thing ever" scenario; Fantilli becomes a 70-80 point #1C with decent-to-good two-way impact? What if, again; crazy to imagine, but what if Michkov becomes a 30+30, really good scoring winger but below elite?

And, sty with me as this is totally mindmelting to even consider; what if Danielson actually becomes a good player and not that much worse than a Fantilli or Carlsson?

 

[Pavels Dog]

You guys need to make up your minds about Larkin...

Larkin isn't a superstar. Ask 100 people to define "superstar" and "elite" and you'll get 200 different answers though. As them to define "star", "cup caliber #1C" or "franchise player" and you'll get so many different answers that it's impossible to keep track of any actual consensus.

To me, Vegas doesn't have a superstar. St.Louis didn't. Carolina doesn't. Seattle definitely doesn't. That's the most recent cup winner, another recent cup winner, one of the biggest cup favorites, and a team that drastically exceeded the expectations of people who only view a roster based on name-brand strength.

 

[Aladyyn]

Larkin isn't a superstar. Ask 100 people to define "superstar" and "elite" and you'll get 200 different answers though. As them to define "star", "cup caliber #1C" or "franchise player" and you'll get so many different answers that it's impossible to keep track of any actual consensus.

To me, Vegas doesn't have a superstar. St.Louis didn't. Carolina doesn't. Seattle definitely doesn't. That's the most recent cup winner, another recent cup winner, one of the biggest cup favorites, and a team that drastically exceeded the expectations of people who only view a roster based on name-brand strength.

Mark Stone is arguably the best player at his position of the last decade but sure. There's also that Jack Eichel fella you may have heard about

 

[Pavels Dog]

Mark Stone is arguably the best player at his position of the last decade but sure. There's also that Jack Eichel fella you may have heard about

I suspected you had a much looser definition of the word than I do. To me, if you're including non-PPG players, guys who have never scored 30 goals, guys who can't stay healthy etc. the "superstar" tier expands so much that the term loses all meaning.
Again, everyone has their definition and you're entitled to yours, which includes the 127th (Eichel) and and 190th (Stone) highest scoring forwards of the last two seasons. I have my superstar cutoff way higher than that.

 

[FrankSidebottom]

Larkin isn't a superstar. Ask 100 people to define "superstar" and "elite" and you'll get 200 different answers though. As them to define "star", "cup caliber #1C" or "franchise player" and you'll get so many different answers that it's impossible to keep track of any actual consensus.

To me, Vegas doesn't have a superstar. St.Louis didn't. Carolina doesn't. Seattle definitely doesn't. That's the most recent cup winner, another recent cup winner, one of the biggest cup favorites, and a team that drastically exceeded the expectations of people who only view a roster based on name-brand strength.

St. Louis won with Tarasenko and Pietrangelo, at the time (give or take a season) they had legit superstar reputation. Vegas is a bit tricky. Eichel was a legit superstar before the neck injury and was good last year. Pietro absolutely was a superstar a couple of years ago and he just had a very season.

 

[Pavels Dog]

St. Louis won with Tarasenko and Pietrangelo, at the time (give or take a season) they had legit superstar reputation. Vegas is a bit tricky. Eichel was a legit superstar before the neck injury and was good last year. Pietro absolutely was a superstar a couple of years ago and he just had a very season.

Taresenko wasn't top 50 in points that cup year. He's had 1 PPG season in his career. Pietrangelo has a career high of 54 points and has never won an individual award or been top 3 in Norris voting.

I think it's fine to call them superstars if you want to, but it feels hypocritical to then act as if Detroit doesn't have anyone with potential. Is it really crazy to imagine that Debrincat or Raymond can score 60-80 points and 30+ goals like Tarasenko? If a 40-50 point d-man can be a superstar, why is it impossible that Seider reaches that level?

 

[Belial]

It was all Brisebois all the time clearly!

 

[FrankSidebottom]

Taresenko wasn't top 50 in points that cup year. He's had 1 PPG season in his career. Pietrangelo has a career high of 54 points and has never won an individual award or been top 3 in Norris voting.

I think it's fine to call them superstars if you want to, but it feels hypocritical to then act as if Detroit doesn't have anyone with potential. Is it really crazy to imagine that Debrincat or Raymond can score 60-80 points and 30+ goals like Tarasenko? If a 40-50 point d-man can be a superstar, why is it impossible that Seider reaches that level?

This is a false comparison. Tarasenko was a 40-35 player when there were literally just 3-5 PPG players in the entire league, prime Tarasenko regularly was top 10 in goals and top 15 in points. He was one of the best wingers and goalscorers in the game, what you say is history revision.

So to be “like Tarasenko“ in the current scoring environment Raymond has to regularly score 45-50 goals (J. Robertson was #7 with 46 goals last year, prime Tarasenko placed 8-4-4) and 100 points (Marner/Hughes were tied #12 with 99 points last year, prime Tarasenko placed 10-13-10).
His Hart finishes are 14-12-15, that’s roughly where Marner and Kucherov were placed last year.

And suddenly it seems a bit harder than just 60-80 points, doesn’t it?

 

[FrankSidebottom]

Taresenko wasn't top 50 in points that cup year. He's had 1 PPG season in his career. Pietrangelo has a career high of 54 points and has never won an individual award or been top 3 in Norris voting.

I think it's fine to call them superstars if you want to, but it feels hypocritical to then act as if Detroit doesn't have anyone with potential. Is it really crazy to imagine that Debrincat or Raymond can score 60-80 points and 30+ goals like Tarasenko? If a 40-50 point d-man can be a superstar, why is it impossible that Seider reaches that level?

And again, raw totals are useless here. Pietrangelo is #7 in D points during the 2010s. And he was actually good at playing defense, the only guy with more points and who was better defensively is Hedman. So to be ”like Pietrangelo“ today Seider has to be a 65-70 point defenseman with good/great defensive awareness.

 

[Aladyyn]

This is a false comparison. Tarasenko was a 40-35 player when there were literally just 3-5 PPG players in the entire league, prime Tarasenko regularly was top 10 in goals and top 15 in points. He was one of the best wingers and goalscorers in the game, what you say is history revision.

So to be “like Tarasenko“ in the current scoring environment Raymond has to regularly score 45-50 goals (J. Robertson was #7 with 46 goals last year, prime Tarasenko placed 8-4-4) and 100 points (Marner/Hughes were tied #12 with 99 points last year, prime Tarasenko placed 10-13-10).
His Hart finishes are 14-12-15, that’s roughly where Marner and Kucherov were placed last year.

And suddenly it seems a bit harder than just 60-80 points, doesn’t it?

St. Louis at the time was also a defensively skewed team with a big hole at 1C until the O'Reilly trade

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

What he is banking on is a top 3 of Seider, Edvinsson and Wallinder. For those that think this team is laughable in a couple years they are going to be a nightmare to play against. The plan is to let the vets fall off as the young talent ends ELCs.

Is he banking on a lot of young players coming through? Absolutely, but you have to trust the people you have surrounded yourself with and the responsibility to manage their areas. I am encouraged by the kind of players Yzerman and Draper like. Monsters on the back end with high end skating and lots of speed up front, and generally a very high compete level is the trend of most good teams… that is what he is shooting for, will come off? I am not sure but when Seider and Edvinsson are both logging minutes they should be a playoff team. Keep building from there, actually really encouraged.

 

[Belial]

Yzerman Rebuild:

 

[Connor McConnor]

It can't be understated how terrible a shape the franchise was in when he took over.

Larkin, Bertuzzi, Hronek and Rasmussen were pretty much the only decent young pieces in the organization, and they had just blown a top 5 pick on Zadina. They had one of the worst outlooks of any team in the league when he became GM. That's now the case now whatsoever.

He's generally done a good job getting excellent value via trade, but his signings have been hit and miss and while the Wings have a nice future ahead of them after 5 years of sucking and the loaded pool of prospects that comes with that, I don't know if they'll be a legit contender.

He jumped the gun last offseason committing a fair amount of money on Copp, Perron, Chariot and Husso, all of whom were signed to multi-year deals and therefore weren't able to be jettisoned at the deadline like Bertuzzi or Hronek. More than that, they probably helped the Wings win just enough games to lose out on a high-end prospect and instead end up with Danielson, who I'm not huge on. Had they swung for the fences on a guy like Wood or Benson, it wouldn't be as much of an issue, but as of now I don't know if they'll have enough high-end scorers to contend.

I liked a lot of the moves he made this offseason. Got a 26YR old top line sniper in DeBrincat for cheap and signed him to a reasonable deal. Adding Petry, Sprong and Kostin for cheap/nothing was also impressive, but spending 8.5M on Compher and Holl over the next 3 years was really dumb and indefensible. Add that to already spending over 20M on Copp, Chariot, Husso, Fabbri and Maatta and that's a lot of money wasted on mediocre talent that may end up getting in the way of some of their excellent prospects coming through the pipeline.

Wings should be able to develop into a perennial playoff team for a long time, and a lot of that has to do with Yzerman's work, but I do question if he's built a legitimate Stanley Cup contender, which is what you'd hope for after sucking as many years as the Wings have. I think their hope, outside of a hitting the jackpot on a few of their dozen quality prospects, is convincing some Michigan boys to come home to put the team over the top. Kyle Connor is a Michigan born former UoM Wolverine that is a UFA in 3 years and I'm thinking Yzerman may be banking on him coming home. Hellebuyck was born in Michigan as well and acquring him may put the Wings into a playoff spot, but right now they look like a team that will probably be on the outside looking in next season.

Damn I wish I could be as positive and optimistic as you are as a fan. He’s been pretty damn awful as a GM and you kind of admit it throughout this historical assessment.

Why he thought coming 5-10th is better than 1-5 and signing washed up vets to long term deals to ensure you do that in perpetuity makes no sense

 

[Pavels Dog]

This is a false comparison. Tarasenko was a 40-35 player when there were literally just 3-5 PPG players in the entire league, prime Tarasenko regularly was top 10 in goals and top 15 in points. He was one of the best wingers and goalscorers in the game, what you say is history revision.

So to be “like Tarasenko“ in the current scoring environment Raymond has to regularly score 45-50 goals (J. Robertson was #7 with 46 goals last year, prime Tarasenko placed 8-4-4) and 100 points (Marner/Hughes were tied #12 with 99 points last year, prime Tarasenko placed 10-13-10).
His Hart finishes are 14-12-15, that’s roughly where Marner and Kucherov were placed last year.

And suddenly it seems a bit harder than just 60-80 points, doesn’t it?

And again, raw totals are useless here. Pietrangelo is #7 in D points during the 2010s. And he was actually good at playing defense, the only guy with more points and who was better defensively is Hedman. So to be ”like Pietrangelo“ today Seider has to be a 65-70 point defenseman with good/great defensive awareness.

How does your "scoring environment" argument possibly hold up with last year's Vegas team? Like, you see the contradiction don't you?

As for "historical revision", calling Tarasenko a 40-35 player is a reach when we're talking about cup winning teams. He scored 33 goals two years in a row leading up to their cup win. He was 23rd in goals in 2017-18, and 34th in 18-19, and 58th in points when they won the cup. The equivalent last season would have been ~36 goals and ~71 points. For how long does a player retain "superstar" status while not performing on that level? 2 years? 5 years? Forever? Is Tarasenko still a superstar?

 

[Pavels Dog]

St. Louis at the time was also a defensively skewed team with a big hole at 1C until the O'Reilly trade

Detroit, at this time and projected going forward, is a defensively skewed team.

So to be ”like Pietrangelo“ today Seider has to be a 65-70 point defenseman with good/great defensive awareness.

To be clear once again; Pietrangelo, the actual Pietrangelo, wasn't a 65-70 point defenseman on the cup winning team.
Do you not see the irony, even a little bit, in Seider having to live up to some prime/scoring-adjusted Pietrangelo version rather than living up to, you know, the actual Pietrangelo who won the cup last season?

 

[Fatass]

It can't be understated how terrible a shape the franchise was in when he took over.

Larkin, Bertuzzi, Hronek and Rasmussen were pretty much the only decent young pieces in the organization, and they had just blown a top 5 pick on Zadina. They had one of the worst outlooks of any team in the league when he became GM. That's now the case now whatsoever.

He's generally done a good job getting excellent value via trade, but his signings have been hit and miss and while the Wings have a nice future ahead of them after 5 years of sucking and the loaded pool of prospects that comes with that, I don't know if they'll be a legit contender.

He jumped the gun last offseason committing a fair amount of money on Copp, Perron, Chariot and Husso, all of whom were signed to multi-year deals and therefore weren't able to be jettisoned at the deadline like Bertuzzi or Hronek. More than that, they probably helped the Wings win just enough games to lose out on a high-end prospect and instead end up with Danielson, who I'm not huge on. Had they swung for the fences on a guy like Wood or Benson, it wouldn't be as much of an issue, but as of now I don't know if they'll have enough high-end scorers to contend.

I liked a lot of the moves he made this offseason. Got a 26YR old top line sniper in DeBrincat for cheap and signed him to a reasonable deal. Adding Petry, Sprong and Kostin for cheap/nothing was also impressive, but spending 8.5M on Compher and Holl over the next 3 years was really dumb and indefensible. Add that to already spending over 20M on Copp, Chariot, Husso, Fabbri and Maatta and that's a lot of money wasted on mediocre talent that may end up getting in the way of some of their excellent prospects coming through the pipeline.

Wings should be able to develop into a perennial playoff team for a long time, and a lot of that has to do with Yzerman's work, but I do question if he's built a legitimate Stanley Cup contender, which is what you'd hope for after sucking as many years as the Wings have. I think their hope, outside of a hitting the jackpot on a few of their dozen quality prospects, is convincing some Michigan boys to come home to put the team over the top. Kyle Connor is a Michigan born former UoM Wolverine that is a UFA in 3 years and I'm thinking Yzerman may be banking on him coming home. Hellebuyck was born in Michigan as well and acquring him may put the Wings into a playoff spot, but right now they look like a team that will probably be on the outside looking in next season.

Seems to me the moves Yzerman made this last year (as you mentioned) will only continue to keep the club mediocre at best.

 

[Aladyyn]

Detroit, at this time and projected going forward, is a defensively skewed team.

Which is exactly why the lack of a gamebreaking offensive talent is a concern