Has the Red Wings struggle changed your opinion of Yzerman as a GM?

[saska sault]

In a classic sign that the Wings are starting to turn the corner, all the slime covered and puss oozing creatures have slipped and slid there way back into conversations about the team after a long hibernation. For Detroit fans this is a good sign as it will start to consume there daily life more and more. Think of the poor loved ones of these troubled folks.

 

[norrisnick]

Not really, it's too soon to tell. It's not like Holland left him much of anything to inherit.

I suppose strategically you could argue he didn't do a blatant tank for the Bedard sweepstakes, but that's about it.

In terms of picks a great scouting department can make a GM look like a genius or a moron when realistically it's a group effort.

The lack of a 1C centre prospect to build around is a valid critique, beyond that doing as well as a rebuilding team could do in amassing picks to grow and develop together.

The main question is when will they take that next step like NJD and Buffalo, then when theyre there what they can do to become a championship calibre team.

Winning the lottery twice would have probably helped with that step.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Winning the lottery twice would have probably helped with that step.

We got absolutely screwed but I dunno how much it would've helped.

2019 - We ended up with what is right now the easy 2nd best player in the draft, and if Seider develops into a Top 5 D in the world, that would help a Hughes vs. Seider argument. (Honestly I think it's based on positional need if that happens)

2020 - There were rumors that Yzerman was very high on Stutzle, but does he pick him at #1? We'll probably never know that. If he does, obviously that's an improvement. If it's Lafreniere, he hasn't at all proven that he's better than Raymond right now. Granted, Raymond has gotten more opportunity.

2021 - Obviously the consensus is going with Power right now and Edvinsson would have to pan out very well to prove any differently, but the difference between the two as far as we know right now isn't great enough to substantially change the direction of the team.

On this one you could make the argument that Beniers as a center would change the dynamic of the rebuild. You'd add a top center, but you'd also damage your long-term LHD outlook to Walman + Wallinder and then a bunch of maybes. Even so, Power was pretty unchallenged as #1 by the time the draft rolled around.

... And now that I've finished this entire post I now see that you were more promoting NJD/BUF's rebuilds on their lottery luck than lamenting Detroit's because of their lack of one lol.

 

[Shane Diesel]

No because I didn’t think he was some mastermind before. A good GM, but not all good GM’s have immediate success at all stops.

Replicating that Tampa roster right away in Detroit is too much to ask of him. He’s done a good job so far. Give it more time.

Luck is just as important to success as skill. Probably more so.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

Reading back on it I realize that this thread has some of the all time worst takes I’ve ever seen.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Reading back on it I realize that this thread has some of the all time worst takes I’ve ever seen.

Literally anyone on this forum can construct a team to finish in the bottom of the standings and let the scouts pick the BPA. Yzerman certainly hasn't done anything to establish himself as a top GM so many years in with Detroit

 

[Pavels Dog]

Literally anyone on this forum can construct a team to finish in the bottom of the standings and let the scouts pick the BPA. Yzerman certainly hasn't done anything to establish himself as a top GM so many years in with Detroit

Name a couple of top GMs using the following criteria:

- No lottery wins
- No top 3 picks
- No inherited superstars

 

[Matty Sundin]

I’ve always said the red wings rebuild was gonna take a long time. He’s had no lottery luck and took over when that team was a complete dumpster fire

 

[HockeyVirus]

Name a couple of top GMs using the following criteria:

- No lottery wins
- No top 3 picks
- No inherited superstars

I mean, it is the GM's job TO get those players. Like all these teams are not finishing bottom of the standings for fun. They are making sure they get the best odds at franchise talent which is usually at the top of the draft.

All those years of losing and they didn't even bottom out. Basically every cup team bottomed out and got that one superstar

 

[WaW]

Pretty silly poll, sometimes you need to throw blind idealism out the window and look at things pragmatically.

1. Success in this league is built around the draft lottery;
2. It's not his fault that Detroit had absolutely horrendous lottery luck, dropping in the lottery 5 years in a row, including multiple spots 4 times.
3. No owner in the league would sign up for continued tanking just because they can't win the lottery. That's now how those people operate.

 

[WaW]

I mean, it is the GM's job TO get those players. Like all these teams are not finishing bottom of the standings for fun. They are making sure they get the best odds at franchise talent which is usually at the top of the draft.

All those years of losing and they didn't even bottom out. Basically every cup team bottomed out and got that one superstar

How the hell was the 2019-20 team not an example of "bottoming out"? That was one of the very worst teams of the 21st century, and its not even remotely hyperbolic to make that statement...there were 23 points between Detroit and the 2nd worst team, lol.

Owners aren't going to sign off on keeping the team at rock bottom forever just because they can't win the lottery. They lose too much money from that from diminishing attendance/ticket prices/no playoff revenue.

You seem to be one of many here who are "trying" to be critical of Yzerman but are unaware that they are simply being critical of the league's horrendous draft lottery system, because Detroit's trajectory (or lack thereof, depending on your perspective), is pretty well entirely based on that pragmatism. If it were completely up to the GM (blind idealism), money wasn't a factor (more blind idealism), and he had the world's most patient billionaire bankrolling him (I can't believe it's even more blind idealism!), then I'm sure he would've done as many of you *think* he should have, which would be keep tanking until he won a lottery.

Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the DRW fans whose preference would be to stay in the basement until we got that lottery superstar because it's the most reliable way to win in this league, but I'm also not naive enough to pretend that any of the billionaire owners are in agreement with such a notion.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I mean, it is the GM's job TO get those players. Like all these teams are not finishing bottom of the standings for fun. They are making sure they get the best odds at franchise talent which is usually at the top of the draft.

All those years of losing and they didn't even bottom out. Basically every cup team bottomed out and got that one superstar

This is my shocked face at the fact you avoided answering the question

:I

 

[centipede2233]

Name a couple of top GMs using the following criteria:

- No lottery wins
- No top 3 picks
- No inherited superstars

Doug Armstrong.

He took over as gm of the blues July 2010. The best players he inherited were d.backed, p.Berglund, Piet and Oshie. I’d consider none of those guys superstars. The best pick he had was a 20th overall pick in r.Thomas. I think Doug Armstrong fits your criteria.

 

[Hamilton Bulldogs]

About the same. Hes a good GM but nothing special at this time.

I didn't give him as much credit for the lightning as many did. BriseBois got the pieces needed to put the lightning over the top and we don't know if tampa wins with Stevie Y.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

I mean, it is the GM's job TO get those players. Like all these teams are not finishing bottom of the standings for fun. They are making sure they get the best odds at franchise talent which is usually at the top of the draft.

All those years of losing and they didn't even bottom out. Basically every cup team bottomed out and got that one superstar

Yzerman’s first season they were historically bad. What do you mean they didn’t bottom out?

 

[Lampedampe]

Doug Armstrong.

He took over as gm of the blues July 2010. The best players he inherited were d.backed, p.Berglund, Piet and Oshie. I’d consider none of those guys superstars. The best pick he had was a 20th overall pick in r.Thomas. I think Doug Armstrong fits your criteria.

If we're blindly just gonna go by the criteria listed, you're probably right. However you could argue that he did inherit Tarasenko who would go on to become a superstar. Piet would also go on to become close to one, depending on your definition of superstar.

But do you think that Armstrong took over a org in a similar situation to Yzerman when he took over?

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Gotta give another 3 years.

Yzerman took over at the absolute start of their rebuild.

This year should be final year of obtaining a high pick and then in 2 years if they haven't done anything, we can talk.

 

[centipede2233]

If we're blindly just gonna go by the criteria listed, you're probably right. However you could argue that he did inherit Tarasenko who would go on to become a superstar. Piet would also go on to become close to one, depending on your definition of superstar.

But do you think that Armstrong took over a org in a similar situation to Yzerman when he took over?

No. I never said that, I was just replying to your criteria. I think yzerman has done a good job. He inherited an awful roster with a bunch of buyout esq contracts. Holland really messed that redwing roster up good. I don’t know what yzerman is suppose to do. He’s had some bad draft lottery luck. And not everyone wants to play in Detroit. Yzerman has acquired nhl players through free agency and hasn’t traded much in the way of futures other than the 1st for debrincat. He has done about as good a job as possible. He locked up Larkin at 8.7 which is reasonable for a 30 goal ppg center who has speed and fits the new nhl.
the Perron signing was solid. Only bad move was the fabbri contract. I’d give yzerman a solid B+ to date and wouldn’t contest anyone giving him a solid A.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Doug Armstrong.

He took over as gm of the blues July 2010. The best players he inherited were d.backed, p.Berglund, Piet and Oshie. I’d consider none of those guys superstars. The best pick he had was a 20th overall pick in r.Thomas. I think Doug Armstrong fits your criteria.

I think St.Louis as a build is one of the better comparables to Detroit and a proof that you can build without lottery luck.

Armstrong I would say inherited quite a bit more talent so they became a playoff team pretty quickly due to players drafted before Armstrong stepped in; that said it's one of the better examples for sure. St.Louis won the cup in Armstrong's 9th season as GM. Could Detroit be there 5 years from now? Who knows. Certainly too early to call it either way.

 

[centipede2233]

I think St.Louis as a build is one of the better comparables to Detroit and a proof that you can build without lottery luck.

Armstrong I would say inherited quite a bit more talent so they became a playoff team pretty quickly due to players drafted before Armstrong stepped in; that said it's one of the better examples for sure. St.Louis won the cup in Armstrong's 9th season as GM. Could Detroit be there 5 years from now? Who knows. Certainly too early to call it either way.

Yes Armstrong sis inherit a better team. itll take Detroit many many years. Even took Tampa and Colorado a long time to get there.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

I don't disagree but it would have been great if you include the names of all the players you are referring to.

2019: Might have the best player in the draft. Other draft picks still trending well.
2020: 1st round pick looks very good in the NHL. Other picks are trending well. Virtually no players beyond the 1st round are contributing in the NHL.
2021: Multiple picks trending well. Virtually no one from this draft is contributing in the NHL yet.
2022: Multiple picks trending well. Virtually no one from this draft is contributing in the NHL yet.
2023: No one knows.

Seider
Raymond, Wallinder, Neiderbach?
Edvinsson, Cossa, Mazur, Savage
Kasper, Buchlenikov, An. Johansson

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

I mean, it is the GM's job TO get those players. Like all these teams are not finishing bottom of the standings for fun. They are making sure they get the best odds at franchise talent which is usually at the top of the draft.

All those years of losing and they didn't even bottom out. Basically every cup team bottomed out and got that one superstar

And without a lottery pick, he's landed a legitimate #1D (Seider), another D who is trending quite well (Edvinsson), a few forwards tracking better than their positional rankings or just tracking well (Mazur, Danielson, Kasper). And had they any lottery luck at all, they get that Beniers, Stutzle, etc.

Like, without luck he's added several legitimately good hockey players.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I like how the poll implies nobody could possibly have changed their opinion on Yzerman positively.

Very unbiased.

 

[bleedgreen]

No. I don’t think they’re struggling. They’re working their way up a rebuild.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I don’t think people should be either impressed or unimpressed at this time. He’s done the easy part by finishing low in the standings and getting lots of high picks.
Any GM can do that.
Now we wait and see how he builds the team and we assess based on his success or lack thereof. No different than any other GM.