Has the Red Wings struggle changed your opinion of Yzerman as a GM?

[Pavels Dog]

Which is exactly why the lack of a gamebreaking offensive talent is a concern

Not when comparing to a team that won the cup without it.

 

[norrisnick]

Seems to me the moves Yzerman made this last year (as you mentioned) will only continue to keep the club mediocre at best.

Do people fail to realize that mediocre is on the way between bad and good?

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Which is exactly why the lack of a gamebreaking offensive talent is a concern

Ryan O'Reilly isn't an offensive gamebreaking talent. Ryan O'Reilly's best comparable is probably Dylan Larkin. If this is your best argument... then Detroit has their #1C right now.

 

[Fatass]

Do people fail to realize that mediocre is on the way between bad and good?

Teams stay mediocre that don’t have high end elite players in key core positions. Yzerman lacks those key players. I see Detroit in a similar boat to Buffalo. They are both much like the Oilers were when that team relied on Hall, Eberle, and RNH. They reach a level of mediocrity and get stuck.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Ryan O'Reilly isn't an offensive gamebreaking talent. Ryan O'Reilly's best comparable is probably Dylan Larkin. If this is your best argument... then Detroit has their #1C right now.

Name the superstar/gamebreaker out of these:

A: 82GP, 28G, 49A, 77pts
B: 76GP, 32G, 41A, 73pts

Also out of these:
A: 80GP, 32G, 47A, 79pts
B: 67GP, 27G, 39A, 66pts

And for kicks, these too:
A: 81GP, 41G, 35A, 76pts
B: 76GP, 33G, 35A, 68pts

 

[Aladyyn]

Ryan O'Reilly isn't an offensive gamebreaking talent. Ryan O'Reilly's best comparable is probably Dylan Larkin. If this is your best argument... then Detroit has their #1C right now.

The conversation was about Tarasenko. ROR was also a clearly superior player to Larkin

 

[FrankSidebottom]

How does your "scoring environment" argument possibly hold up with last year's Vegas team? Like, you see the contradiction don't you?

As for "historical revision", calling Tarasenko a 40-35 player is a reach when we're talking about cup winning teams. He scored 33 goals two years in a row leading up to their cup win. He was 23rd in goals in 2017-18, and 34th in 18-19, and 58th in points when they won the cup. The equivalent last season would have been ~36 goals and ~71 points. For how long does a player retain "superstar" status while not performing on that level? 2 years? 5 years? Forever? Is Tarasenko still a superstar?

Semantically you can’t have a down year without having a couple of great seasons before, Tarasenko deserved some benefit of doubt. To win it all you usually need guys who proved to have sustainable top level skills, whether on the cup season, or 1/2 years before the cup season. Obviously you can have a sharp decline like Subban had, but that was not the Tarasenko‘s case, he was still good after his peak. As for Pietrangelo: again, 45-50 points five years ago are not the same as in 2023. Seider is awesome for his age, but he’s still no prime Pietrangelo i.e. top 5-10 defensman for a long period that is a reasonable definition of a superstar.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Teams stay mediocre that don’t have high end elite players in key core positions. Yzerman lacks those key players. I see Detroit in a similar boat to Buffalo. They are both much like the Oilers were when that team relied on Hall, Eberle, and RNH. They reach a level of mediocrity and get stuck.

He has Seider. He potentially has Edvinsson. Sorry, but you can't just suck until you have a 1C and 1D and expect everything to be hunky dory.

They are nothing like Hall, Eberle, and RNH's Oilers. Those teams had a fledging Oscar Klefbom and nothing else on D. Also, they were left on their own to sink or swim. The whole reason why you bring in veterans isn't to be a mid team for the rest of your existence. It's so that the crazily talented youngsters you have actually have guys who know what they're talking about to learn from.

 

[Pavels Dog]

ROR was also a clearly superior player to Larkin

Career aligned I don't know about that.

Larkin: 584GP, 179G, 258A, 437pts, 0.75pts/GP
O'Reilly: 570GP, 147G, 249A, 396pts, 0.69pts/GP

I also feel like by praising O'Reilly and Tarasenko so much it only increases confidence in Detroit's build, between Raymond/Debrincat and Larkin/Kasper/Danielson. I don't know why you're deciding to die on the hill that those guys are superstars, instead of calling it what we know it is; a difficult build to win with.

 

[FrankSidebottom]

Career aligned I don't know about that.

Larkin: 584GP, 179G, 258A, 437pts, 0.75pts/GP
O'Reilly: 570GP, 147G, 249A, 396pts, 0.69pts/GP

I also feel like by praising O'Reilly and Tarasenko so much it only increases confidence in Detroit's build, between Raymond/Debrincat and Larkin/Kasper/Danielson. I don't know why you're deciding to die on the hill that those guys are superstars, instead of calling it what we know it is; a difficult build to win with.

Larkin is decent defensively, but 0.06 PPG don’t make up the difference in two-way play. Yes, Larkin played on some awful teams without a chance to any Selke recognition, but I’m not sure he would have been close anyway.

O‘Reilly‘s Selke placements:
1-3-4-5-6-11-11.

You can easily build a winning team down the middle with a 70 point 1C if he’s a perennial Selke contender (O’Reilly/Toews) but it’s way harder if he’s just decent defensively. You better have a great 2C then.

 

[norrisnick]

Teams stay mediocre that don’t have high end elite players in key core positions. Yzerman lacks those key players. I see Detroit in a similar boat to Buffalo. They are both much like the Oilers were when that team relied on Hall, Eberle, and RNH. They reach a level of mediocrity and get stuck.

Defense is a key core position.

 

[TS Quint]

Lol eh maybe but don't worry, I don't give 2 shits about you.

 

[newfy]

Seems to me the moves Yzerman made this last year (as you mentioned) will only continue to keep the club mediocre at best.

These posts kill me. With Seider, Larkin, Raymond, Hronek, Walman, Bertuzzi and probably a full season of Edvinsson if you sign no one..... do you really think the wings were bad enough to finish at the bottom?

They have young guys contributing now at a good enough level that youre not going to finish with the absolute bottom of the barrel teams. So you can take a guy like Seider, and let him end up like all those young guys in Edmonton did with no help around them, or you can take your legit number one dman, potential one on the way in Edvinsson and the million picks oyuve made the last few years and start to take a step.

The amount that Detroit would have to go backwards at this point to just finish with the highest chance to finish 4th in the draft is dumb to even suggest

 

[WetcoastOrca]

With all of their top 10 picks over the last 7 or 8 years they’re pretty much where I’d expect overall.
Stronger on D than expected and weaker at forward.
Of course not all of that is on Yzerman.

 

[Fatass]

These posts kill me. With Seider, Larkin, Raymond, Hronek, Walman, Bertuzzi and probably a full season of Edvinsson if you sign no one..... do you really think the wings were bad enough to finish at the bottom?

They have young guys contributing now at a good enough level that youre not going to finish with the absolute bottom of the barrel teams. So you can take a guy like Seider, and let him end up like all those young guys in Edmonton did with no help around them, or you can take your legit number one dman, potential one on the way in Edvinsson and the million picks oyuve made the last few years and start to take a step.

The amount that Detroit would have to go backwards at this point to just finish with the highest chance to finish 4th in the draft is dumb to even suggest

I’m of the opinion that not all Calder winning D continue on to being high end players. Tyler Myers won the Calder. IMHO we need to wait and see how Seider develops. Maybe Yzerman recognizes his younger guys aren’t good enough, so he brought in experienced players?

 

[FMichael]

I’m of the opinion that not all Calder winning D continue on to being high end players. Tyler Myers won the Calder. IMHO we need to wait and see how Seider develops. Maybe Yzerman recognizes his younger guys aren’t good enough, so he brought in experienced players?

The players Yzerman kicked to the curb (read Holland draft picks and free agent signings) are easily a step or 2 below what he's drafted, traded for, and signed via UFA.

This team has a long shot at making 7th/8th in the Eastern Conference, but is still vastly superior to the mess Yzerman was left with...The comedy of it all remains with the fact that most non-Wings fans are clueless with what's been going down in the D.

 

[Pavels Dog]

You can easily build a winning team down the middle with a 70 point 1C if he’s a perennial Selke contender (O’Reilly/Toews) but it’s way harder if he’s just decent defensively. You better have a great 2C then.

It's a good thing Detroit drafted Kasper and Danielson who project as really, really good two-way players.

Larkin is decent defensively, but 0.06 PPG don’t make up the difference in two-way play. Yes, Larkin played on some awful teams without a chance to any Selke recognition, but I’m not sure he would have been close anyway.

O‘Reilly‘s Selke placements:
1-3-4-5-6-11-11.

1-3-4-5 came in St.Louis though, on a Cup winner and playoff teams - it's unlikely Larkin matches that in the next 4 years but it's still not a fair comparison considering you're using what O'Reilly did later in his career to put him above the career-aligned numbers.

 

[Fatass]

The players Yzerman kicked to the curb (read Holland draft picks and free agent signings) are easily a step or 2 below what he's drafted, traded for, and signed via UFA.

This team has a long shot at making 7th/8th in the Eastern Conference, but is still vastly superior to the mess Yzerman was left with...The comedy of it all remains with the fact that most non-Wings fans are clueless with what's been going down in the D.

A fan should defend their youngest players. It’s those players who fans place their hopes on for a better club down the road. I’m saying we need to wait and see how these younger guys develop. I’m also pointing out that Yzerman brought in several older players to help the kids because he saw (during the back half of last season) the younger guys aren’t ready or able to take on so much.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

A fan should defend their youngest players. It’s those players who fans place their hopes on for a better club down the road. I’m saying we need to wait and see how these younger guys develop. I’m also pointing out that Yzerman brought in several older players to help the kids because he saw (during the back half of last season) the younger guys aren’t ready or able to take on so much.

Yes. And they develop when they are in competitive hockey games. Not when they're in games where it is essentially hammer meets nail.

The type of guy who can waltz onto a roster and do it alone... he goes 1/1 in every draft and there is only a handful of those guys in a generation.

And of course he recognizes they aren't good enough... yet. That's why you bring in veterans. Not to be mediocre and scrape into a playoff spot ad infintum... but so that the young, talented players you do have are able to be brought along at an appropriate pace.

 

[Shane Diesel]

ROR was also a clearly superior player to Larkin

Larkin has a higher career p/gp than O'Reilly.

 

[Aladyyn]

Larkin has a higher career p/gp than O'Reilly.

I don't remember asking.

 

[Shane Diesel]

I don't remember asking.

You didn't. You made an incorrect statement and I decided to help you out with it. Have a lovely day and double check your facts before posting.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

This deserves a bump.

 

[EXTRAS]

How long do people think proper rebuilds take? You cant get an entirely new championship worthy core in 2 or 3 years and If you do manage it it usually takes that core a few years to develop. I'm excited to see what Edvinsson, Sandin-Pelikka, Danielson, Kasper and Cossa will add to this team over the next few years.

Seider - Edvinsson the bash Brothers bb

 

[The Nuge]

This deserves a bump.

Why? The criticism was he was signing mediocre players to overpays which is a good way to end up not good enough to compete but not bad enough to get elite players. They’re currently sitting out of the playoffs, but also not even getting a top 15 pick. Thats basically exactly where you don’t want to be.

How long do people think proper rebuilds take? You cant get an entirely new championship worthy core in 2 or 3 years and If you do manage it it usually takes that core a few years to develop. I'm excited to see what Edvinsson, Sandin-Pelikka, Danielson, Kasper and Cossa will add to this team over the next few years.

Seider - Edvinsson the bash Brothers bb

The criticism is for him signing a backup goalie at 4.75 per, #5 dman at 4.75 per, #6/7 dman at 3.4 per, etc. Not that it’s taking too long. If you’re going to do that, at least sign them to 1 year deals so you don’t have bad contracts on the books for years