Goaltending, defense

[wingnutks]

So you want to ignore the most important part of those statistics just to make your boy look better. Sounds good. Using one statistic by itself is completely useless.

It is absolutely NOT the most important part of the statistics. It is why we have 3rd and 4th lines and #4-6 dmen... guys have roles. Nowhere did I sat Hickey is even remotely our best Dman... but he is in no way close to the problem people think he is. He is playing his role very well, and holding up his end of the bargain probably close to if not better than any other dman. Also he has the second lowest GA/60 while on the PK out of all our PKing Dmen, the highest GF/60 while on the PK out of any player(forward or Dman).
Hickey/Boychuk log the most PK mins... GA/60 during the PK is 6.2 Boychuk(best on team) and 7.5 for Hickey(2nd best on team)... all other Dmen on the team are over 11.5!

Even strength per 60... Hickey averages almost 1 goal more FOR than AGAINST... in fact he is one only of 3 Isles players under 2 GA/60 and the only Isles DEFENSEMAN under 2.5 GA/60. The problem with how so many people on this board rate our Dmen is on confirmation bias of mistakes made. However my opinion is, this entire team is a defensive disaster, every single Dmen is making multiple large scale mistakes at all times. The big difference is which defenders cover for their mistakes. I think our 2 best defensemen at re-covering from their mistakes are Hickey and Pelech... and the numbers back that up. I would say our worst Dman for making mistakes and not coving for them would be Pulock... and the numbers agree with that as well. I would argue there is a pretty good reason Pelech has played more games than Pulock. Pulock shows some nice flash/hands when he is moving thru the neutral zone, but defensively he is killing this team.

Also in my analysis from both the numbers, and the eye exam, in the absence of CDH/Boychuk... riding Nick Leddy may not be the best solution.

 

[Lame Lambert]

It is absolutely NOT the most important part of the statistics. It is why we have 3rd and 4th lines and #4-6 dmen... guys have roles. Nowhere did I sat Hickey is even remotely our best Dman... but he is in no way close to the problem people think he is. He is playing his role very well, and holding up his end of the bargain probably better than any other dman. Also he has the second lowest GA/60 while on the PK out of our PKing Dmen, the highest GF/60 while on the PK for any player.
Hickey/Boychuk log the most PK mins... GA/60 during the PK is 6.2 Boychuk(best on team) and 7.5 for Hickey(2nd best on team)... all other Dmen on the team are over 11.5!

Even strength per 60... Hickey averages almost 1 goal more FOR than AGAINST... in fact he is one only of 3 Isles players under 2 GA/60 and the only Isles defenseman under 2.5 GA/60. The problem with how so many people on this board rate our Dmen is on confirmation bias of mistakes made. However my opinion is, this entire team is a defensive disaster, every single Dmen is making multiple large scale mistakes at all times. The big difference is which defenders cover for their mistakes. I think our 2 best defensemen at re-covering from their mistakes are Hickey and Pelech... and the numbers back that up. I would say our worst Dman for making mistakes and not coving for them would be Pulock... and the numbers agree with that as well. I would argue there is a pretty good reason Pelech has played more games than Pulock. Pulock shows some nice flash/hands when he is moving thru the neutral zone, but defensively he is killing this team.

Also in my analysis from both the numbers, and the eye exam, in the absence of CDH/Boychuk... riding Nick Leddy may not be the best solution.

How players are deployed is absolutely the most important part since it gives context to every other statistic. Hickey has been a 6/7 all year long, which means he is going to be playing against the easiest competition, with less minutes than other D. Leddy gets the most difficult workload on this team, so obviously he is going to have a higher GA/60. If you deploy Hickey the same way as Leddy he’d be a complete disaster. Your argument is like saying someone should be in the NHL because they scored 50 beer league goals one time.

 

[Lek]

Anyway you all want to look at it.....not much of a debate to be had really, unless you just like to debate.
Hickey is a solid 6/7, serviceable 5 if needed.
Leddy is a solid 2/3...and not a so far behind 1/2
The rest of what is left, past Sieds (as he is just ...well, old)...are all still learning.
Mayfield and the 2 P's still might very well make solid 3-6's...just not yet and that is our current problem.
Yes, we could use another proven 1-3...but so can most.
Just going to have to struggle through the learning curve until...well...they learn....or we acquire...and there is no rushing either.

 

[wingnutks]

How players are deployed is absolutely the most important part since it gives context to every other statistic. Hickey has been a 6/7 all year long, which means he is going to be playing against the easiest competition, with less minutes than other D. Leddy gets the most difficult workload on this team, so obviously he is going to have a higher GA/60. If you deploy Hickey the same way as Leddy he’d be a complete disaster. Your argument is like saying someone should be in the NHL because they scored 50 beer league goals one time.

First thing is definitely not true... Why doesnt Beauville have 40 points this year? Second thing, my argument is nothing of the sort. My argument is simply that people keep spewing the same crap over and over that we are so bad because of guys like Hickey and how he needs to be pushed out of the line up... when in fact the simple truth is Hickey is not even remotely the reason we are a defensive disaster right now... not even close. 2 players on the team that should not be playing right now (developement aside) is Pulock and Beau.

 

[wingnutks]

Anyway you all want to look at it.....not much of a debate to be had really, unless you just like to debate.
Hickey is a solid 6/7, serviceable 5 if needed.
Leddy is a solid 2/3...and not a so far behind 1/2
The rest of what is left, past Sieds (as he is just ...well, old)...are all still learning.
Mayfield and the 2 P's still might very well make solid 3-6's...just not yet and that is our current problem.
Yes, we could use another proven 1-3...but so can most.
Just going to have to struggle through the learning curve until...well...they learn....or we acquire...and there is no rushing either.

Basically all of this is spot on! Except right now Pulock is killing us, but hopefully he can/will improve. Pelech has actually been pretty decent I think

 

[Lame Lambert]

First thing is definitely not true... Why doesnt Beauville have 40 points this year? Second thing, my argument is nothing of the sort. My argument is simply that people keep spewing the same crap over and over that we are so bad because of guys like Hickey and how he needs to be pushed out of the line up... when in fact the simple truth is Hickey is not even remotely the reason we are a defensive disaster right now... not even close. 2 players on the team that should not be playing right now (developement aside) is Pulock and Beau.

Beau needs to be in the AHL. That’s why he doesn’t have 40 points. Pulock needs to be playing since that’s the only way he will improve.

 

[wingnutks]

Beau needs to be in the AHL. That’s why he doesn’t have 40 points. Pulock needs to be playing since that’s the only way he will improve.

But Beau gets matched up against other teams worst D/F lines...
Pulock is not ready, and definitely not ready to be on a team that already has 2 rookie Dmen in the line up. Pulock is this years Islander team embodied... You know how it seems like this team is always pressuring the opposition, almost scoring for minutes on end, and then it goes the other way for a 2 on 1 goal against... that is Pulock's play in a nut shell. Although he has been pretty decent on the PP.

 

[Lame Lambert]

Pulock is not ready, and definitely not ready to be on a team that already has 2 rookie Dmen in the line up. Pulock is this years Islander team embodied... You know how it seems like this team is always pressuring the opposition, almost scoring for minutes on end, and then it goes the other way for a 2 on 1 goal against... that is Pulock's play in a nut shell. Although he has been pretty decent on the PP.

So he’s supposed to sit in the press box? The coaching staff didn’t trust him at the beginning of the year and clearly trust him more now. Not to mention that the coaches and reporters have said multiple times that he’s improved a lot since the beginning of the year. Blame Snow or the coaches for mishandling this entire situation, but you can’t blame a rookie dman with 40 NHL games for not being a complete player. Very few of them are, and that’s what makes players like that so special. I’m not sure why you’re using Pulock’s defensive issues to defend Hickey’s inability to do anything well.

 

[wingnutks]

So he’s supposed to sit in the press box? The coaching staff didn’t trust him at the beginning of the year and clearly trust him more now. Not to mention that the coaches and reporters have said multiple times that he’s improved a lot since the beginning of the year. Blame Snow or the coaches for mishandling this entire situation, but you can’t blame a rookie dman with 40 NHL games for not being a complete player. Very few of them are, and that’s what makes players like that so special. I’m not sure why you’re using Pulock’s defensive issues to defend Hickey’s inability to do anything well.

I definitely agree he has improved since the beginning of the season. I am not blaming anyone, I just said that it is not ideal having to have him develope while we have 2 other rookies on the back end, but injuries happen and it is what it is. I would rather have him play over Seidenberg because I think there is not much difference between them defensively, and Pulock does help the 2nd unit PP... also Pulock is the "future", so why waste time on Seidenberg, especially as long as Pulocks time with the team now is actually helping his development, which it seems to be.

 

[PROMputt]

You know with young players sometimes when they are struggling it is beneficial for them to sit in the press box, take a breather and see the game from a different perspective. Most around here make it sound like a punishment when it can be a learning tool.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

I definitely agree he has improved since the beginning of the season. I am not blaming anyone, I just said that it is not ideal having to have him develope while we have 2 other rookies on the back end, but injuries happen and it is what it is. I would rather have him play over Seidenberg because I think there is not much difference between them defensively, and Pulock does help the 2nd unit PP... also Pulock is the "future", so why waste time on Seidenberg, especially as long as Pulocks time with the team now is actually helping his development, which it seems to be.

This is a thoughtful and well reasoned response to basically sticking fingers in ears and going LALALALA. I salute you.

 

[Lame Lambert]

This is a thoughtful and well reasoned response to basically sticking fingers in ears and going LALALALA. I salute you.

I think everyone on here has acknowledged that Pulock struggles in the D zone. I also think most people realize he needs to play in order to get better, which he has been doing all year.

 

[Frankie41987]

How players are deployed is absolutely the most important part since it gives context to every other statistic. Hickey has been a 6/7 all year long, which means he is going to be playing against the easiest competition, with less minutes than other D. Leddy gets the most difficult workload on this team, so obviously he is going to have a higher GA/60. If you deploy Hickey the same way as Leddy he’d be a complete disaster. Your argument is like saying someone should be in the NHL because they scored 50 beer league goals one time.

According to quality of competition data on Corsica, Hickey does not play the easiest assignments. He is exactly in the middle of the 8 defensemen this year. So I would not dismiss the GA/60 stat.

 

[Lame Lambert]

According to quality of competition data on Corsica, Hickey does not play the easiest assignments. He is exactly in the middle of the 8 defensemen this year. So I would not dismiss the GA/60 stat.

Small sample size considering Hickey, Pulock, Pelech, Mayfield, and Seidenberg have all rotated with each other throughout the year. And I was stating that specifically in relation to Leddy.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

I think everyone on here has acknowledged that Pulock struggles in the D zone. I also think most people realize he needs to play in order to get better, which he has been doing all year.

You, on the other hand, I do not salute.

 

[Lame Lambert]

You, on the other hand, I do not salute.

That’s nice

 

[YearlyLottery]

You know with young players sometimes when they are struggling it is beneficial for them to sit in the press box, take a breather and see the game from a different perspective. Most around here make it sound like a punishment when it can be a learning tool.

While I generally agree with this, Beauvillier needs time down. Sitting in the box hasn't been doing much for him.

 

[majormet]

While I generally agree with this, Beauvillier needs time down. Sitting in the box hasn't been doing much for him.

Beau is not benefiting from the coaching at this point, I think Nelson/Quine/Beau could be a great line but these types of players need to be coached, I don't think a lot of our younger players are developing.... Barzal does not count, he was already assembled.. but most players need to be coached...

 

[YearlyLottery]

Beau is not benefiting from the coaching at this point, I think Nelson/Quine/Beau could be a great line but these types of players need to be coached, I don't think a lot of our younger players are developing.... Barzal does not count, he was already assembled.. but most players need to be coached...

I think you have to count Barzal considering how he looked last year. I think you have to look at some of these guys on offense having career years and come to the conclusion guys such as Nelson, Quine, and Beauvillier just aren't playing well. The system is structured heavily towards offense and they just don't have it.

 

[majormet]

I think you have to count Barzal considering how he looked last year. I think you have to look at some of these guys on offense having career years and come to the conclusion guys such as Nelson, Quine, and Beauvillier just aren't playing well. The system is structured heavily towards offense and they just don't have it.

I think with proper coaching they can be made into a formidable line that gets 25 goals collective a year while driving possession, the team is now just an offensive free for all, with no preaching of defensive coverage of the forwards, that is why we give up a zillion goals... transition

 

[YearlyLottery]

I think with proper coaching they can be made into a formidable line that gets 25 goals collective a year while driving possession, the team is now just an offensive free for all, with no preaching of defensive coverage of the forwards, that is why we give up a zillion goals... transition

I think your point would be much more valid if Boychuk and CdH were healthy. It is tough to blame the forwards for some of the defensive woes currently going on.

 

[majormet]

I think your point would be much more valid if Boychuk and CdH were healthy. It is tough to blame the forwards for some of the defensive woes currently going on.

We give up a zillion goals with Boychuk and CDH in the lineup, we would give up a zillion goals with Vlasic/Doughty/Stralman/OEL as our top 4 the way the forwards fail to collapse

 

[dlawong]

I start to believe that the only way to save Isles over the next few years not just this year is start to think about if they should go forward seriously improving this G&D group while somehow able manage to hold on their best young offensive proven and potential talents. I am still not confident about JT staying here as my gutt somehow sense that he would want a change of scenery and head out to a certain California team with an older centre core (SJ) that would go heavily after him this summer or the Blues. Isles needs to serious try to draft a bona fide top talent D who can do it all (skate, pass, handles puck, good hockey IQ and able to score or at least consistently get puck on net) while not terrible at managing the puck and position in neutral and D zone. You really can't acquire these kind of D from other team unless you are a top free agent attraction team like Tampa, all 3 California teams, Pittsburgh, Capitals or maybe Rags. You have to draft one and be good at identify the skill sets, maturity in handling the pro life and physical ability to end up on the winning side of physical battles in this league.

If there is one or two defensive draft eligible players this year with all box checked, I will keep both 1st round pick and hope somehow get lucky in the lottery draft. Sure there is no guarantee that will happen, but you must not shut yourself out of the possibility of getting one by trading away these draft, especially Isles own. The rentals are too risky - you may not get to acquire the players you want without tearing up your future offensive talent core and even if you do you may not able to resign the players you traded for and end up in a heavy double loss.

Isles also have to improve their AHL team development program, hire more skill coaches to work with those youngster down there. There are a lot of practice time because they play most games on the weekends. For years, the AHL team has not been able to produce much improvements for the players drafted so there is a problem.

Sorokin is hopeful but I would not count on him saving the Isles, it is time to look for other solution, if not now then sure jump on it early this summer.

Doug's system is very offensive driven and it is fun and good for the talented offence group. I am ok with that but as long as the team can neutralise the additional risks by upgrading the D to enable the system to work. Good speed and sound D to D quick passing is required all around and as I said before, the goalies need to be able to handle and pass the pucks to the D or at least get out of the zone without icing. You need a big strong poised goalie who has great hands (with puck handing and controlling rebounds).

 

[LeapOnOver]

My comment does state that Halak saved shots he should have and the Islanders won. Do you disagree with that statement? I hope not after the lengths you have went to defend your boy.

Further more I also added in an additional post to help you understand my post more that Halak played well above average in the Buffalo game. Your so called "retort" is not a retort because it is actually agreeing with what I am saying. I will attempt to help you understand my stance once more.

Jaroslav Halak has saved shots he should have saved. Jaroslav Halak has saved shots he should not have saved. Jaroslav Halak has played well these past few games. You probably should not be disagreeing with me on this since it actually agrees with your statements...

Sure, and I think it's funny you think I have gone to great lengths to defend Halak. I don't know whose reading comprehension failed at this point, but seems you've narrowed this down to just Halak. The initial disagreement is how you think coaching has nothing to do with bad (or good for that matter) goaltending and that our defense hasn't been bad, it's just been goaltending (all this obviously before Halak's better play as late). Figures a game like this happens to show the perfect example that our defense is trash, and it hasn't been all on the goalies.

 

[YearlyLottery]

Sure, and I think it's funny you think I have gone to great lengths to defend Halak. I don't know whose reading comprehension failed at this point, but seems you've narrowed this down to just Halak. The initial disagreement is how you think coaching has nothing to do with bad (or good for that matter) goaltending and that our defense hasn't been bad, it's just been goaltending (all this obviously before Halak's better play as late). Figures a game like this happens to show the perfect example that our defense is trash, and it hasn't been all on the goalies.

Right, because I totally started the disagreement when Boychuk was hurt as well. Have you ever played hockey before? The reason why I ask is because if we go back to some of these goals Halak has allowed throughout this season (well before he turned it around), you should understand some of these goals have nothing to do with the coaching or the defense.

The bolded is why I question your reading comprehension skills. I have stated that the defense has not been great and that I am very happy with the way Halak has been playing.

Like you are telling me stuff that I agree with, the bolded is also something I absolutely agree with so I don't know why you are bringing it up as "I told you so" type of statement. I never ONCE made accusations on Halak/Greiss being bad when Boychuk went out.

And once again, if you think defense has anything to do with Halak letting in a shot five hole that has no business going in then it is quite obvious you do not know what you are talking about. I do not mean that in a negative way of course, because plenty of people here have never played sports before and have a general knowledge about hockey which is great.

Also, I challenge you to find a post in which I say that EVERYTHING has been goaltending with no blame whatsoever going to the defense for the entire course of this season. You are making things up at this point.