Speculation: GM Lou Lamoriello to take lesser role with team?

[93LEAFS]

Yeah I have no idea what's going on there but the idea that Hunter might not want to work if it means Dubas is his boss always seemed entirely reasonable to me. I mean maybe he'd stay, I really have no idea but it seems nuts for people to think it's a given.

I wasn't involved in the conversation, but I did follow along - From an outsider's perspective, what exactly did you expect? Lots of people around here say things in absolutes, and unless you've got something tangible to back it up with, those absolutes are often going to be scrutinized and dissected until something (like a Mirtle article) substantiates it more than just Some Person Online saying so.

I wouldn't take it personally that people here trust Mirtle over you - Perhaps you'll be taken more seriously in the future, though.

I just find it funny how I'm beating the Athletic to scoops. I also beat them to Merkley's a headcase, and the federations thinking about avoiding the U-18's this year due the pollution/radiation in the Urals.

 

[Menzinger]

So wait? Mirtle now basically reported what I was saying on Monday and getting so much flak over. Its not as extreme in wording but it talks about the clash in management, that people here were doubting. It also clears up that Dubas's extension wasn't signed after the Avs approach, which I think hurts the claim that he's the lock. Also puts in clear writing that Hunter wants to be the GM.

And this quote.



But, I guess I was crazy for suggesting this earlier in the week.

Though (no offense intended here) it’s a bit different for something said by an anonymous online poster vs a journalist with connections to the team who has to verify things with confirmed sources.

And he doesn’t necessarily say “Hunter will defintely quit”, just that the decision may lead to tensions.

As for the extension timing - I’d say that’s more indicative of Shanahan defintely not wanting to lose Dubas (which in turn means he’s going to need to promote him
At some point or lose him eventually, which leads him back to being potentially Shanahan s preferred choice for a lost-Lou Leafs).

 

[IBeL34f]

I just find it funny how I'm beating the Athletic to scoops. I also beat them to Merkley's a headcase, and the federations thinking about avoiding the U-18's this year due the pollution/radiation in the Urals.

Have you considered talking to the site (HFBoards, I mean) about getting your account verified or something like that? Pretty sure posters who have legitimate sources can be "vetted" or whatever. Might not be a big deal, and you'll still have people thinking you only have access to the same information they have access to, but it could definitely give you some extra credibility around here. I don't know how that whole thing works, but I believe ChuckWoods had their account verified previously, and probably others as well.

 

[93LEAFS]

Have you considered talking to the site (HFBoards, I mean) about getting your account verified or something like that? Pretty sure posters who have legitimate sources can be "vetted" or whatever. Might not be a big deal, and you'll still have people thinking you only have access to the same information they have access to, but it could definitely give you some extra credibility around here. I don't know how that whole thing works, but I believe ChuckWoods had their account verified previously, and probably others as well.

Not worth the hassle. I wouldn't want to have the people who link me this stuff (in Hockey related media) have to verify me. Which I would assume is part of the process, because, otherwise they would say it themselves if they wanted any trace back to them.

 

[IBeL34f]

Not worth the hassle. I wouldn't want to have the people who link me this stuff (in Hockey related media) have to verify me. Which I would assume is part of the process, because, otherwise they would say it themselves if they wanted any trace back to them.

That's fair. Might have to be willing to take a little ribbing online from time to time then. Like I said, though, a proven track record will have others around here watching your back when the trolls come.

 

[93LEAFS]

Either way, I'm just glad this side of the story is finally reported by someone outside of Steve Simmons so it has some validity around here (i hated having to point to Steve Simmons, as I think he's pure click bait).

Babcock is in Hunter's corner. The most obvious example of this is that when the Leafs had two coaching openings Babcock backed Hunter's choice to get the assistant coaching job on the Leafs bench (DJ Smith), while Dubas's guy was given the Marlies. While some may see it as him just moving on. I think its pretty telling how the Leafs didn't fight (actually were fine with letting him go) to keep Dubas's right hand man, who is Wes Clark who is currently an Ontario scout for the Florida Panthers. It ain't like we are getting outbid by the Panthers, even if we offer him a lesser job.

Though (no offense intended here) it’s a bit different for something said by an anonymous online poster vs a journalist with connections to the team who has to verify things with confirmed sources.

And he doesn’t necessarily say “Hunter will defintely quit”, just that the decision may lead to tensions.

As for the extension timing - I’d say that’s more indicative of Shanahan defintely not wanting to lose Dubas (which in turn means he’s going to need to promote him
At some point or lose him eventually, which leads him back to being potentially Shanahan s preferred choice for a lost-Lou Leafs).

They also promoted Hunter at a similar time, which I assume came with a raise and an extension. At the end of the day, its Shanny's decision. But, I do think Hunter has the other two power players in the organization behind him, which should not be discounted.

I don't expect Mirtle to say it in absolute terms, but as I stated on Monday, it is typical workplace politics and the loser most likely leaves. Dubas is currently isolated to his side of the organization, which Mirtle points out, and I heard that back in October. He has the analytics guys and the Marlies.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I like hunter but I really hope Dubas gets it. we need someone who's in cohesion with Babcock but not to the point where there's a lack of diversity in opinions

 

[AppsSyl]

I hope we keep both, but...

If I have to choose between the two, it is Hunter. The London Knights have produced roughly twice as many NHL'ers as the next closest CHL team over the last decade and a half. He controls the scouting department, and has a ton of connections.

As was mentioned in a previous page of this thread (by I think 93Leafs), it is a lot easier to rebuild an analytics department than a scouting department. We have a damn good scouting department, and it would be really bad if Hunter and a number of them walked.

 

[93LEAFS]

I hope we keep both, but...

If I have to choose between the two, it is Hunter. The London Knights have produced roughly twice as many NHL'ers as the next closest CHL team over the last decade and a half. He controls the scouting department, and has a ton of connections.

As was mentioned in a previous page of this thread (by I think 93Leafs), it is a lot easier to rebuild an analytics department than a scouting department. We have a damn good scouting department, and it would be really bad if Hunter and a number of them walked.

Yeah, and probably cheaper (not that it really matters). Look how many young math-inclined Hockey fans there are who are getting high-level degrees and attending these conferences. I feel there is a much bigger market for smart young sabermetric's inclined people, than veteran and respected NHL scouts. Most guys are lifers with a team if they like it.

 

[AppsSyl]

Yeah, and probably cheaper (not that it really matters). Look how many young math-inclined Hockey fans there are who are getting high-level degrees and attending these conferences. I feel there is a much bigger market for smart young sabermetric's inclined people, than veteran and respected NHL scouts. Most guys are lifers with a team if they like it.

Letting Hunter go would be a BIG mistake, and one that we will most definitely live to regret. Because of the Leafs fast rise up the standings and the big 3 fact guys are still on ELC's, many people have not yet realized how important it is going to be to draft extremely well, and pull in the free wallet Euros, when our cap is up against the ceiling. Hunter is the key to our sustainability.

 

[93LEAFS]

Letting Hunter go would be a BIG mistake, and one that we will most definitely live to regret. Because of the Leafs fast rise up the standings and the big 3 fact guys are still on ELC's, many people have not yet realized how important it is going to be to draft extremely well, and pull in the free wallet Euros, when our cap is up against the ceiling. Hunter is the key to our sustainability.

Yeah, Hunter didn't take Willy, which should be remembered.

I personally side with Hunter. It is not like I like the current situation. As a fan, I wish there was a way everyone got along and enjoyed working with each other. But, that doesn't seem likely and we are closely approaching the fork in the road.

It should also be remembered, Babs has an option at the end of year 5 to opt out. Which should give him some pull on top of his actual salary. I would also think its a very strong possibility, if Hunter or Dubas leaves for another GM job, we are going to loose one of Keefe or DJ Smith.

 

[93LEAFS]

A lot of that seems to go inline with what's in this thread, particularly what LEAFS93 brought up. Hunter would probably like to take over the whole Hockey Operations, while Shanahans vision is/was probably Dubas taking over the majority of Hockey Operations with Hunter keeping his current role, and then working side by side with Dubas. I'm speculating about this but makes a lot of sense and seems to line up with everything that has happened so far.

I love Hunter and his track record in Junior but like you said, we lose his abilities one way or another if he's GM or if he leaves. And let's be honest, he hasn't exactly been hitting home runs with his drafts. Too early to tell, I know, but outside of the first 2 rounds it's been a little meh considering his reputation that he's a drafting god of some sort. Plenty of gems have been found in later rounds in recent drafts so far.

I assume someone like Vuori would take over Hunters current role if he does leave.

Never a good thing to read about rifts in your front office. Shanahan probably needs to clear that out before it becomes poison. He kept Dubas after that Avalanche offer, so it's definitely a sign that Dubas will win the job.

Who knows how many of Hunter's guys want to stay. I haven't heard this anywhere, but I highly doubt they would make a Euro based guy head of scouting. I think the only team with the set-up is the Blue Jackets. While Europe is an important market, a majority of the prospects play in NA, more specifically in a pretty strong radius around Toronto (between OHL, USHL, NCAA teams and USNTDP) all being fairly scoutable from Southern Ontario. Its why most teams head scouts live in the Toronto suburbs. Hunter to the best of my knowledge is based in a town between London and Sarnia. Vuori strengths are scouting Europe, we don't want him having to spend significant time in NA to oversee where the majority of our operation resides.

If we go internally, my guess is the front-runners would be Tim Speltz or John Lilly. The big issue is, Hunter brought a lot of these guys to work under his vision. So, they may stick around for the paycheck or the life of their contract (scout contracts are generally 2 to 3 years) but if they are good scouts may move on to a situation they find more favorable. Generally, in workplace political struggles, the losers guys tend to move on if they are respected throughout the industry.

As I said, I don't like this situation at all. We are losing some key people one way or the other. People need to remember, that Dubas has had little impact on the current NHL team. He's been isolated into his own corner of the organization. Which is analytics and the Marlies. Hunter has had more of a say on NHL moves through overseeing pro-scouting and amateur scouting.

This is a key quote

Dubas' relationship with Lamoriello has been complicated throughout their time together. It's less apprentice and mentor as it is two big personalities from different generations vying for oxygen in a confined space. (Having Mike Babcock and Hunter also in the same box doesn't help.)

What's made it manageable is there isn't as much overlap, given Dubas has remained largely focused on the Marlies, player development and the analytics team. There is a lot to do in a big organization, and he has his plate full.

 

[The CyNick]

Mirtle is gonna get shunned by the Leafs if he keeps trying to play up this “everyone hates each” stuff.

Did the same thing last summer.

None-the-less, Dubas is probably GM this spring/summer, or if they wait a year it’ll be Hunter because Dubas will probably be gone-zo this summer.

He's in a tough position, needs to appear as an insider to sell subs. Usually leads to outright lies.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Yeah, Hunter didn't take Willy, which should be remembered.

I personally side with Hunter. It is not like I like the current situation. As a fan, I wish there was a way everyone got along and enjoyed working with each other. But, that doesn't seem likely and we are closely approaching the fork in the road.

It should also be remembered, Babs has an option at the end of year 5 to opt out. Which should give him some pull on top of his actual salary. I would also think its a very strong possibility, if Hunter or Dubas leaves for another GM job, we are going to loose one of Keefe or DJ Smith.

well we'd lose one of them anyway.
they are doing great things so unless they don't wanna be a head coach..

 

[Gary Nylund]

That's fair. Might have to be willing to take a little ribbing online from time to time then. Like I said, though, a proven track record will have others around here watching your back when the trolls come.

That's true I guess but I think 93LEAFS has made enough good posts (regardless of any inside info) that verification isn't really necessary. That's the way I see it anyway, once you've been around here a while you can decide for yourself who is (or isn't) worth paying attention to.

 

[Warden of the North]

If the one who doesnt get the job is upset the other got the job over him and leaves, then so be it. I wont lose sleep either way.

We dont have nearly enough information on either of them to know which one is doing a better job.

That said, I dont believe a lick that comes out of the media with regards to this management group. The media knows nothing and it pisses them off to no end

 

[Cor]

To correct LEAFS93, Mike Babcock doesn’t have an opt out after 5 years. The early reports were that he did, but they were later reported to be false.

Also John Lilly wasn’t a Mark Hunter hire.

For someone claiming to be in the know, he seems to be getting facts wrong.


And this whole Mark Hunter and his hires are all going to walk if Dubas is named GM is bogus. Plain and Simple. Let’s stop acting like it’s true

 

[Cor]

So wait? Mirtle now basically reported what I was saying on Monday and getting so much flak over. Its not as extreme in wording but it talks about the clash in management, that people here were doubting. It also clears up that Dubas's extension wasn't signed after the Avs approach, which I think hurts the claim that he's the lock. Also puts in clear writing that Hunter wants to be the GM.

And this quote.

But, I guess I was crazy for suggesting this earlier in the week.

If we’re discussing timelines, Mirtle reported all of these last summer. You didn’t beat him whatsoever.

He’s been the only one suggesting any sort of rift. No one else has talked about it.

If there was a rift, or Hunter and Dubas were these mortal enemies, I’m sure Friedman or Johnston, two credible guys with more connections than James Mirtle or an HFBoards user, would report so on their broadcast.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Yep.

Interestingly the biggest obstacle for Shanahan will be Lou, who is not a man used to not being in control - rightly points out he didn’t last long as an advisor in Jersey for that reason.

Shanahan has got a difficult decision ahead to say the least.

The guy is 75 years old, gotta slow it down some time but I wouldn't want 1-2 more years of Lou to stand in the way of a guy who has a LOT of road ahead of him in the NHL as an executive.

I think the fan base is hesitant in seeing a guy like Chayka in Arizona but he's in a tough spot. We also had a rookie GM in JFJ but the board kind of got in the way there. Dubas I think is in a different mold, he has a great portfolio for someone his age, and we have to move on from Lou at some point.

Also Lou has more term on his deal but not as a GM on his deal

Would Maple Leafs GM Lou Lamoriello take lesser role with team? - Sportsnet.ca

 

[93LEAFS]

If we’re discussing timelines, Mirtle reported all of these last summer. You didn’t beat him whatsoever.

He’s been the only one suggesting any sort of rift. No one else has talked about it.

If there was a rift, or Hunter and Dubas were these mortal enemies, I’m sure Friedman or Johnston, two credible guys with more connections than James Mirtle or an HFBoards user, would report so on their broadcast.

So wait now Mirtle isn't credible. It was also reported by Simmons in June.

I also never said Lilly was a Hunter hire. What I did say he was promoted under Hunter to his current position and a bunch of these people were hired under Hunter, which includes Vuori, Speltz, Hofford and Jim Paliafito.

What makes you so sure Hunter would stay if Dubas is promoted? As a fan, I wish this was true, but it seems highly unlikely and it will likely come to a full boil at the end of the year. It also appears less and less that Dubas is the horse that Lou is backing. Which has been reported by Friedman.

That’s a bit of a surprise, since conventional wisdom is Mark Hunter surpassed him on the Lou Lamoriello succession list, whenever that will be.

30 Thoughts: What does future hold for Dubas with Leafs? - Sportsnet.ca

 

[Cor]

You use that 30 thoughts article as if it’s Friedman’s latest report, despite Friedman just sayings Dubas will be the guy.


Mirtle is a very credible reporter and columnist. He’s not a credible insider.

And Steve Simmons is in no way credible.

 

[93LEAFS]

You use that 30 thoughts article as if it’s Friedman’s latest report


Mirtle is a very credible reporter and columnist. He’s not a credible insider.

And Steve Simmons is in no way credible.

Except Friedman has never reported anything to of changed since then. Why would Lou change his mind to who he backs for the next GM? The thing is, its Shanahan's choice, which gives Dubas a chance, but there are serious players within the organization who think otherwise. That most likely includes our current GM and Head coach.

I never said Lilly was Hunter hire though. If you actually read what I said. I said a bunch of the current scouting staff is. Which is true, especially in prominent positions.

 

[Cor]

Except Friedman has never reported anything to of changed since then. Why would Lou change his mind to who he backs for the next GM? The thing is, its Shanahan's choice, which gives Dubas a chance, but there are serious players within the organization who think otherwise. That most likely includes our current GM and Head coach.

Friedman also never said Lou Lam prefers Hunter.

He just said there is some belief that Hunter surpassed Dubas on the succession list, but it’s now been reported by Friedman that Shanny has told people in the organization that Lou is moving into a different role and Dubas will be GM.

So clearly, that’s all irrelevant. Dubas IS the succession plan

 

[Daisy Jane]

The guy is 75 years old, gotta slow it down some time but I wouldn't want 1-2 more years of Lou to stand in the way of a guy who has a LOT of road ahead of him in the NHL as an executive.

I think the fan base is hesitant in seeing a guy like Chayka in Arizona but he's in a tough spot. We also had a rookie GM in JFJ but the board kind of got in the way there. Dubas I think is in a different mold, he has a great portfolio for someone his age, and we have to move on from Lou at some point.

Also Lou has more term on his deal but not as a GM on his deal

Would Maple Leafs GM Lou Lamoriello take lesser role with team? - Sportsnet.ca

and Botteril in Buffalo. Francis hasn't really done that much in Carolina either, nothing to really write home about.

i want

THE BEST

and really I don't know (or feel) that Dubas is that.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Dubas as the GM, with Lou Lam in a mentoring role behind him is just fine with me.