Speculation: GM Lou Lamoriello to take lesser role with team?

[93LEAFS]

Friedman also never said Lou Lam prefers Hunter.

He just said there is some belief that Hunter surpassed Dubas on the succession list, but it’s now been reported by Friedman that Shanny has told people in the organization that Lou is moving into a different role and Dubas will be GM.

So clearly, that’s all irrelevant. Dubas IS the succession plan

Where was that reported by Friedman. What was said on Saturday night was said by Kyprios.

Even if Dubas is the succession plan (which hasn't been firmly reported anywhere to the best of my knowledge), that doesn't mean Hunter and Lou agree with it, because at the end of the day, they answer to Shannahan, who has the call.

Also, while Mirtle reported on the conflict in the summer, he didn't say anything about Hunter wanting to be GM. Which I said earlier this week and is in his new report. Compare this statement in the summer, to this one today.

Since then, there has been a lot more talk in the media and fan base about Hunter instead being the one moving up. Perhaps that’s because he’s around the team more (he's the one executive I see at the ACC many nights) or perhaps he just has more advocates in the media.
But there is some doubt that Hunter would even want the role. He is not someone who courts the limelight. He loves being a “super scout” type.

To this today.

There are a million layers to this issue. One of the most complicated ones is the fact that three men — Lamoriello, Dubas and Mark Hunter — all seem to want to be the GM of the Leafs.

 

[firstemperor]

My only thoughts on the dynamic of Lou, Hunter, Dubas, and Babcock are projecting my own biases......which is that I'm not particularly a fan of the potential old-boys club such a regime can have moving forward, minus Dubas. There was a serious problem with innovation (certainly beyond hockey even) with previous regimes and what Dubas preached openly about, was a breath of fresh air.

Ideally, management in today's evolving sports world act as a collective. GM's, operations presidents....need to surround themselves with good people and defer some level of responsibility.

I think idealistically, what Hunter provides is more valuable though. But I'd like to see a middle-man or two in the organization and Dubas would have been great for that role. Who knows if there is any turmoil internally. There are a multitude of people in pro sports that don't mind working behind the scenes......a lot of it comes down to work politics, personalities, etc.

 

[Cor]

Where was that reported by Friedman. What was said on Saturday night was said by Kyprios.

Even if Dubas is the succession plan (which hasn't been firmly reported anywhere to the best of my knowledge), that doesn't mean Hunter and Lou agree with it, because at the end of the day, they answer to Shannahan, who has the call.

And that doesn’t mean they don’t agree with it!

At the end of the day Hunter is close with Shanahan, he came here because of Shanahan and the plan Shanahan sold him on. Part of that plan was Hunter running the scouting, the drafting and the development of players.

Whether it was Nonis, Dubas (acting) or Lou, that never changed. And it will not change if Dubas becomes permanent GM.

Can you name your sources, get vetted by the site, or provide anything more than year old speculation by one columnist (or a reiteration of it)
or outdated reports by Friedman that he’s since changed himself (and that you are actually misusing what was said)? I’m assuming not.

Listen, I can’t say for sure that Lamoriello, Hunter and Babcock don’t hate/dislike Kyle Dubas.

I can’t say for sure that Mark Hunter and his hires aren’t all going to quit the day after Kyle Dubas gets named General Manager.

However, I can say with certainty that there is a greater chance that Kyle Dubas gets named GM, and everything continues as status quo, then the unsubstantiated story your trying to spin as fact with your “inside sources”.

If you are going to be make these claims (which are technically against site rules) then either be able to back them up, or don’t act shocked that people don’t take you seriously.

 

[93LEAFS]

And that doesn’t mean they don’t agree with it!

At the end of the day Hunter is close with Shanahan, he came here because of Shanahan and the plan Shanahan sold him on. Part of that plan was Hunter running the scouting, the drafting and the development of players.

Whether it was Nonis, Dubas (acting) or Lou, that never changed. And it will not change if Dubas becomes permanent GM.

Can you name your sources, get vetted by the site, or provide anything more than year old speculation by one columnist (or a reiteration of it)
or outdated reports by Friedman that he’s since changed himself (and that you are actually misusing what was said)? I’m assuming not.

Listen, I can’t say for sure that Lamoriello, Hunter and Babcock don’t hate/dislike Kyle Dubas.

I can’t say for sure that Mark Hunter and his hires aren’t all going to quit the day after Kyle Dubas gets named General Manager.

However, I can say with certainty that there is a greater chance that Kyle Dubas gets named GM, and everything continues as status quo, then the unsubstantiated story your trying to spin as fact with your “inside sources”.

If you are going to be make these claims (which are technically against site rules) then either be able to back them up, or don’t act shocked that people don’t take you seriously.

Wait, isn't Mirtle's speculation today? Which basically covers what I said earlier in the week?

Fine, don't believe me, but what I said was pretty much reported today, in depth. Mirtle says there is a dispute between the front office and there appear to be lines drawn. There is also statements to the effect that Lou isn't really mentoring Dubas.

Where has Friedman changed what he's said? I've asked for you to post this multiple times. And, yet there is never supporting evidence. If you are talking about Saturday night, it was said by Kyprios. To the best of my knowledge, no one has came out and specifically said Dubas is for sure the next GM.

I guess you want to think everything is perfect in Leaf-land. I wish it was. But as reported, there is a feud in the front office, and the loser will likely move on. You take the lack of reporting on this to be a sign its not happening, but when it is documented by Mirtle, against today, that isn't enough proof.

How can you say with certainty there is a higher-chance that the status-quo continues. No one has even reported that. That's sheer speculation by you. At least some of what I've said has been reported now by a certifiable media source here.

Here is what was said on Saturday. If Friedman though the plan was to clearly promote Dubas, don't you think he would have vocalized it here. Instead we got this.

Would Maple Leafs GM Lou Lamoriello take lesser role with team? - Sportsnet.ca

Neither Johnston or Friedman publically state that Dubas is the front-runner. Kyprios loosely suggests it. My guess is Dubas probably is the front runner due to Shanahan liking him, who has the ultimate decision. But, that doesn't mean Hunter won't move on at first opportunity if this happens.

 

[realgoodleafs]

I'd make Hunter the GM. He probably has relationships with every GM in the league already and is well respected. Drafting is also the most important thing anyways.

I don't see Dubas bringing anything to the table.

 

[Warden of the North]

I'd make Hunter the GM. He probably has relationships with every GM in the league already and is well respected. Drafting is also the most important thing anyways.

I don't see Dubas bringing anything to the table.

Dubas has been around for almost 4 years now. Its not likes hes "new". Hes the GM of the Marlies, and prior to that the GM of the Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds. He knows prospects and how to run an organization, and is currently apprenticing under a Legend. He was VERY highly thought of before the Leafs brought him in (thats why they did, in fact) and is clearly still highly thought of, as indicated by Shanny making sure Colorado was unable to poach him away.

Thats what I see.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Dubas has been around for almost 4 years now. Its not likes hes "new". Hes the GM of the Marlies, and prior to that the GM of the Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds. He knows prospects and how to run an organization, and is currently apprenticing under a Legend. He was VERY highly thought of before the Leafs brought him in (thats why they did, in fact) and is clearly still highly thought of, as indicated by Shanny making sure Colorado was unable to poach him away.

Thats what I see.

I believe before Shanahan hired Dubas there were other NHL teams also interested in getting him.

 

[Discordia]

Dubas is not a good GM. His track record is horrible. He's like letting Zeke run a team. All he does is stat watch and make excuses when the stats start changing.

 

[SprDaVE]

If the one who doesnt get the job is upset the other got the job over him and leaves, then so be it. I wont lose sleep either way.

Pretty much . I think that Hunter is just as replaceable as Dubas and has hardly done anything to suggest he's irreplaceable to be perfectly honest. I look at the body of work he has done with the Leafs so far and it's been no better or worst than Morrison at this rate. (Yes, it's early).

I still believe Dubas will be the guy and I do think he's done a lot more to setup this franchise moving forward. With their current roles, I think the transition would be a lot better going with Dubas.

 

[SprDaVE]

Dubas is not a good GM. His track record is horrible. He's like letting Zeke run a team. All he does is stat watch and make excuses when the stats start changing.

None of that is true, literally.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Dubas is not a good GM. His track record is horrible. He's like letting Zeke run a team. All he does is stat watch and make excuses when the stats start changing.

The only time Dubas was the "GM" before Lamoriello was hired him and Hunter were both the Acting General Managers.

 

[93LEAFS]

Pretty much . I think that Hunter is just as replaceable as Dubas and has hardly done anything to suggest he's irreplaceable to be perfectly honest. I look at the body of work he has done with the Leafs so far and it's been no better or worst than Morrison at this rate. (Yes, it's early).

I still believe Dubas will be the guy and I do think he's done a lot more to setup this franchise moving forward. With their current roles, I think the transition would be a lot better going with Dubas.

.
I don't think there is much you can point to and say it was solidly Dubas who did it. There's the Marlies, but limited amounts at the pro-level. Especially, if you believe he's been isolated for a significant portion of Lou's tenure.

I'd say there Dermott becoming what looks like a top 4 defender is probably more than anything Morrison did. Who botched multiple late firsts. We don't really have a botched first under Hunter yet (I'd include Dermott as a late-first because we traded down to get him). In the 20-50 range, Morrison missed multiple times. I'm skeptical about Korshkov, and odds dictate where we are drafting, Hunter will miss a few anyway. I mean, people love Tampa, who have probably underperformed on multiple top 10 picks under Yzerman (Connolly, Koekkeok, and to a lesser extent Drouin, I mean turning him to Sergachev is a win, but wouldn't you prefer Seth Jones?). Luckily, they've hit well in the late rounds with Point, Kucherov, Palat, and Johnson. Morrison had a bunch of misses in the range we took Dermott, from Kenny Ryan, Blacker, Brad Ross. He also botched atleast one top 5 pick in Schenn, that was luckily slavaged.

I mean, what can you really point to that Dubas set up? The Kessel trade (if you give him credit for that, but that is also pro-scouting), is only a good deal in retrospect because Lou turned that into Freddie Andersen. Otherwise, we have Kapanen who is nice, and a pick that has like a 35% chance of becoming something resembling a core piece for us (top 9 forward, top 4 D or Starting goalie).

 

[Cor]

Wait, isn't Mirtle's speculation today? Which basically covers what I said earlier in the week?

Fine, don't believe me, but what I said was pretty much reported today, in depth. Mirtle says there is a dispute between the front office and there appear to be lines drawn. There is also statements to the effect that Lou isn't really mentoring Dubas.

Where has Friedman changed what he's said? I've asked for you to post this multiple times. And, yet there is never supporting evidence. If you are talking about Saturday night, it was said by Kyprios. To the best of my knowledge, no one has came out and specifically said Dubas is for sure the next GM.

I guess you want to think everything is perfect in Leaf-land. I wish it was. But as reported, there is a feud in the front office, and the loser will likely move on. You take the lack of reporting on this to be a sign its not happening, but when it is documented by Mirtle, against today, that isn't enough proof.

How can you say with certainty there is a higher-chance that the status-quo continues. No one has even reported that. That's sheer speculation by you. At least some of what I've said has been reported now by a certifiable media source here.

Here is what was said on Saturday. If Friedman though the plan was to clearly promote Dubas, don't you think he would have vocalized it here. Instead we got this.

Would Maple Leafs GM Lou Lamoriello take lesser role with team? - Sportsnet.ca

Neither Johnston or Friedman publically state that Dubas is the front-runner. Kyprios loosely suggests it. My guess is Dubas probably is the front runner due to Shanahan liking him, who has the ultimate decision. But, that doesn't mean Hunter won't move on at first opportunity if this happens.

I don’t need to give you any proof that suggests Mark Hunter will not quit, because there’s no substantial evidence to suggest he will.

You are the one making the claim that you know that if Kyle Dubas gets named GM, that Mark Hunter will quit.

You need to either prove why you are believable by either saying your source or getting vetted by HF Mods, OR, by providing some sort of evidence. Right now, you’re evidence is;

- A James Mirtle unconfirmed report that, Mark Hunter MAY not want to report to Dubas, from last summer (that you claimed you beat him to the punch...) that he reiritated a couple days ago in a column where he says Shanahan has told everyone Dubas will be taking over as GM after this season.
- A Friedman 30 thoughts from about a year ago where he mentions some wondered if Mark Hunter was at that point above Kyle Dubas in the succession plan, which Friedman, Johnston and Kypreos discussed on Saturday, saying Dubas was going to be the guy, and Lou maybe signed on for additional years as some sort of advisory role.
- Steve Simmons talking about in June? Which you never really linked
too, not that I need you too because it’s Steve Simmons
- And then your own suggested insider info?



The reason I can say there’s a greater chance Hunter doesn’t quit than there is him quitting is because there’s no evidence that Hunter would quit in the first place. He and Dubas have worked together for 4 years, including a stint where Dubas was acting GM, and they did very well together. They’ve talked positively about each other in the past.

This is all largely built off this moronic idea that Kyle Dubas is too young and Mark Hunter won’t want to report to the young ‘kid’, despite the fact that this has been a management by committee and no one really reports to anyone but Shanahan.

 

[realgoodleafs]

The Kessel deal wasn't good. No way in hell should we have retained salary. We didn't even retain salary on Phaneuf.

 

[93LEAFS]

I don’t need to give you any proof that suggests Mark Hunter will not quit, because there’s no substantial evidence to suggest he will.

You are the one making the claim that you know that if Kyle Dubas gets named GM, that Mark Hunter will quit.

You need to either prove why you are believable by either saying your source or getting vetted by HF Mods, OR, by providing some sort of evidence. Right now, you’re evidence is;

- A James Mirtle unconfirmed report that, Mark Hunter MAY not want to report to Dubas, from last summer (that you claimed you beat him to the punch...) that he reiritated a couple days ago in a column where he says Shanahan has told everyone Dubas will be taking over as GM after this season.
- A Friedman 30 thoughts from about a year ago where he mentions some wondered if Mark Hunter was at that point above Kyle Dubas in the succession plan, which Friedman, Johnston and Kypreos discussed on Saturday, saying Dubas was going to be the guy, and Lou maybe signed on for additional years as some sort of advisory role.
- Steve Simmons talking about in June? Which you never really linked
too, not that I need you too because it’s Steve Simmons
- And then your own suggested insider info?



The reason I can say there’s a greater chance Hunter doesn’t quit than there is him quitting is because there’s no evidence that Hunter would quit in the first place. He and Dubas have worked together for 4 years, including a stint where Dubas was acting GM, and they did very well together. They’ve talked positively about each other in the past.

This is all largely built off this moronic idea that Kyle Dubas is too young and Mark Hunter won’t want to report to the young ‘kid’, despite the fact that this has been a management by committee and no one really reports to anyone but Shanahan.

You haven't linked Friedman saying that Dubas is the next in-line, which you have claimed multiple times.

They also didn't say Dubas would be the guy. Kyprios literally said "maybe Kyle Dubas." Friedman or Johnston didn't say anything on top of this. Outside of the fact Lou has a contract for next year, but unclear what role it will be in. Johnston stated that it was said that Lou wouldn't be the GM, but he never says its Dubas as the next one. Did you actually listen to what they said? I've asked you multiple times to find a recent link, where either Friedman or Johnston says in clear terms that Dubas is the choice. Which you haven't.

Mirtle stated it today in an article, that its unlikely Hunter would be happy in that situation. Also mentioned by Mirtle is that Hunter and the high-end Hockey Ops have limited interaction and that Dubas is isolated in his corner of the organization.

 

[Cor]

Because this is essentially “PROVE IT!” “NO YOU PROVE IT!” let’s assume LEAF93 is somehow getting information from Leafs management.

Kyle Dubas is made GM in June. Mark Hunter quits. Fine. Then we don’t want Mark Hunter. Shanahan will work tirelessly to bring in someone else in like he did originally when he hired Dubas and later Prindholm and later Hunter and later Babcock and later Lamoriello

Or

Mark Hunter is made GM in June. Awesome. Another excellent choice. Before Lou/Babs we’re hired, I wanted Mark to be GM and Dale to be head coach. We’ll lose Dubas to another team, but I’m sure Mark can bring in other guys.

 

[SprDaVE]

.
I don't think there is much you can point to and say it was solidly Dubas who did it. There's the Marlies, but limited amounts at the pro-level. Especially, if you believe he's been isolated for a significant portion of Lou's tenure.

I'd say there Dermott becoming what looks like a top 4 defender is probably more than anything Morrison did. Who botched multiple late firsts. We don't really have a botched first under Hunter yet (I'd include Dermott as a late-first because we traded down to get him). In the 20-50 range, Morrison missed multiple times. I'm skeptical about Korshkov, and odds dictate where we are drafting, Hunter will miss a few anyway. I mean, people love Tampa, who have probably underperformed on multiple top 10 picks under Yzerman (Connolly, Koekkeok, and to a lesser extent Drouin, I mean turning him to Sergachev is a win, but wouldn't you prefer Seth Jones?). Luckily, they've hit well in the late rounds with Point, Kucherov, Palat, and Johnson.

I mean, what can you really point to that Dubas set up? The Kessel trade (if you give him credit for that, but that is also pro-scouting), is only a good deal in retrospect because Lou turned that into Freddie Andersen. Otherwise, we have Kapanen who is nice, and a pick that has like a 35% chance of becoming something resembling a core piece for us (top 9 forward, top 4 D or Starting goalie).

I mean we can keep going in circles here about this but it's pretty clear that his involvement there has been terrific and plenty of people have been on record in saying so. The Avalanche clearly took notice and it's been really good. Even unearthing plenty of really solid depth players over his time as the Marlies handler, something not many Assistant GMs can say they've done. Now he looks like he found another in Mason Marchment. Not only that, but he found one of the best up and coming coaches very likely getting poached in the near future.

While Morrison has botched plenty of his selections, he also found plenty of good ones, which were unfortunately traded away before the became Leafs. The point wasn't that Hunter isn't allowed or would never miss on prospects, especially mid/late picks, but the point is that he hasn't really showed what people preach him for. Plenty of good prospects that have really jumped out since being drafted in those mid/late rounds like (from the top of my head here) Bratt, Cirelli, Mete (hello?), Mamin, Malgin, Simon, etc and other non-pro prospects in the mid/late rounds have showed a lot more promise and potential than anything he's drafted so far in the same rounds. Not exactly the legendary scouting that I keep reading about. I'm pretty sure we can find a talented Head Scout that can do exactly what Hunter has done so far. But I understand completely that drafts take awhile to take shape and development curves are definitely not linear. Either way, while I was excited for Hunter coming in and doing his thing, he hasn't exactly lived up to expectations.

Funny enough, the Dermott draft was when the Leafs smartly traded down and drafted him, Bracco and Dzierkals. While the latter hasn't panned out, Dermott and Bracco were very good selections and Dermott is showing to be a great selection. You said earlier in this thread Hunter was a fan of trading down in this method and it's probably his best draft selection outside of the obvious ones. And it's the draft where Dubas was responsible for taking calls, trading, etc. It's also where he probably found his best late round pick to date in Timashov.

EDIT: I am a typo machine tonight.

 

[93LEAFS]

I mean we can keep going in circles here about this but it's pretty clear that his involvement there has been terrific and plenty of people have been on record in saying so. The Avalanche clearly took notice and it's been really good. Even unearthing plenty of really solid depth players over his time as the Marlies handler. Not only that, but he found one of the best up and coming coaches very likely getting poached in the near future.

While Morrison has botched plenty of his selections, he also found plenty of good ones, which were unfortunately traded away before the became Leafs. The point wasn't that Hunter isn't allowed or would never miss on prospects, especially mid/late picks, but the point is that he hasn't really showed what people preach him for. Plenty of good prospects that have really jumped out since being draft in those mid/late rounds like (from the top of my head here) Bratt, Cirelli, Mete (hello?), Mamin, Malgin, Simon, etc and other non-pro prospects in the mid/late rounds have showed a lot more promise and potential than anything he's drafted so far in the same rounds. Not exactly the legendary scouting that I keep reading about.

Funny enough, the Dermott draft was when the Leafs smartly traded down and drafted him, Bracco and Dzierkals. While the latter hasn't panned out, Dermott and Bracco were very good selections and Dermott is showing to be a great selection. You said earlier in this thread Hunter was a fan of trading down in this method and it's probably his best draft selection outside of the obvious ones. And it's the draft where Dubas was responsible for taking calls, trading, etc.

What can you directly point to for him. I mean, you want to talk about a guy missing on late round picks, which no one consistently hits on? That's a ridiculous expectation.

How many good picks did Morrison make that we traded? He wasn't in charge of our scouting department when either Steen, Stralman, or Rask was drafted he was a regular scout at that point to the best of my knowledge, not the Head scout. Who the head scout was at that point escapes me. His first draft as head guy was 2007.

If you want to give Dubas credit for Keefe, than you should give Hunter credit for DJ Smith, who was Hunter's guy, and is also likely to be poached soon.

 

[Cor]

31 Thoughts should be interesting this week. Surprised it’s not out already, but Friedman typically talks more about what’s said on Headlines in those articles

 

[Cor]

What can you directly point to for him. I mean, you want to talk about a guy missing on late round picks, which no one consistently hits on? That's a ridiculous expectation.

How many good picks did Morrison make that we traded? He wasn't in charge of our scouting department when either Steen, Stralman, or Rask was drafted he was a regular scout at that point to the best of my knowledge, not the Head scout. Who the head scout was at that point escapes me. His first draft as head guy was 2007.

If you want to give Dubas credit for Keefe, than you should give Hunter credit for DJ Smith, who was Hunter's guy, and is also likely to be poached soon.

Mike Babcock was the one who brought DJ Smith to the Leafs;

 

[93LEAFS]

Mike Babcock was the one who brought DJ Smith to the Leafs;

Hunter had a significant say in recommending him.

 

[Cor]

Hunter had a significant say in recommending him.

Here’s another article where Babcock discusses why he hired Smith

 

[93LEAFS]

Here’s another article where Babcock discusses why he hired Smith

Obviously, at the end of the day, Babcock gave the yes or no, on who is on his staff. It doesn't talk about how DJ Smith was brought to Babcock's attention.

 

[SprDaVE]

What can you directly point to for him. I mean, you want to talk about a guy missing on late round picks, which no one consistently hits on? That's a ridiculous expectation.

How many good picks did Morrison make that we traded? He wasn't in charge of our scouting department when either Steen, Stralman, or Rask was drafted he was a regular scout at that point to the best of my knowledge, not the Head scout. Who the head scout was at that point escapes me.

If you want to give Dubas credit for Keefe, than you should give Hunter credit for DJ Smith, who was Hunter's guy, and is also likely to be poached soon.

Ridiculous? Maybe. But expectations are high, right? I never said he had to consistently hit on every prospect. I even said so. But right now, he's got a lot of misses and plenty of players around his picks have flourished. While we have to wait a bit to see how it turns out, not exactly impressive either. Hunter got all his guys, as you say, in the scouting positions, so it's sort of on him... right?

We want to diminish Dubas' accomplishments and his body of work to "So what? No bid deal. Meh. Whatever", I guess that's what I'm doing with Hunter in a way.

Also, Morrison was part of the scouting staff in 2004 but was only named director in 2006. I thought he was director when we drafted Rask. I wasn't much of a fan of Morrison, but simply to illustrate that I don't think Hunter has been overly more impressive. Not someone that appears to be irreplaceable as you make him out to be. I'd be just as confident for Shanahan and Dubas finding the appropriate replacement for Hunter if he really doesn't want to do what he's doing.

 

[Cor]

Obviously, at the end of the day, Babcock gave the yes or no, on who is on his staff. It doesn't talk about how DJ Smith was brought to Babcock's attention.

Perhaps. Is there anything you can point to that shows Hunter’s input into Smith’s hiring?