OT: General UFC/MMA/Boxing discussion VII

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Kriss E

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A lot of fights aren't even settled 2-3 months before the fight. The main event was announced less than 2.5 months prior, image the rest of the card.

Given that you say everyone takes PEDs and find ways around the blood testing that is administered in person what makes you think they can't adjust a scale if you're monitoring by video?

The go broke comment was about an agency, the work wouldn't justify the cost.
You are arguing over semantics. The point is mutiple weighins is very possible, doable, and simple. Those are the rules. Abide by them or GTFO. You are not asking a blind mind to play the piano like Stevie Wonder here. You are doing this to better the health of your fighters and prevent them from doing stupid weight cuts.
So 60 days is too far out...make it 45...whatever man, those are just random numbers thrown. Point is, multiple weighins would prevent these insane cuts, and they should be spread over a long enough period.

And Tony Ferguson kicks steel poles to train, is he responsible or should UFC step in as well? At a certain point you're responsible for what you do to your own body.
Yes, and for some instances, the UFC also has to step in. Not all situations are equal.
The problem is you implied 2 month weight check by video call. You go on and on about PEDs being masked in tests but a scale by video call is flawless? C'mon. Not to mention as I said many fights aren't even put together over 2 months prior.
I did not imply, I threw this out as a rebuttal to your wild claim that it would cost so much cash.
But hey, sure, I mean, let's try ways to temper with the scale, risk a ban and fine, instead of cutting 5lbs to make the first cut....Ya, that makes complete sense.

You said:

I'm saying day will never happen.
I don't think it will either, but it could, if it leads to more hospitalizations.
As for Hunt with PEDs in pride. Scott Stevens was once applauded for his head shots. **** changes. UFC didn't want until they got sued to implement USADA, this is bad because?
I didn't say it was bad, I said it's a failed system as it has been proven time and time again. PED testing is in no way shape or form a deterrent. Even for guys that have tested positive before, they will still take some and risk getting caught again.
Even if USADA is more effective at testing, they will never, ever, be ahead of science. There will always be new substances that aren't known to them being developed. Eventually, they will know about them, ban them, but by that time, other new ones will be out. That is why PEDs are not going anywhere.

Michael Bisping severely damaged his eye fighting against a guy who was on PEDs.

"We all know the dangers of this sport. I mean, we're trying to knock each other out. I've been left permanently disfigured, if you will, from my fight with Vitor Belfort. Vitor Belfort head kicked me and that's what caused my detached retina. Since then, I've had five surgeries, and my eye is never going to look the same again. That was one of the reasons why I said I was never fighting anybody else with a steroid history. But with all the backlash on Twitter, this and that, people saying, ‘Oh he's scared,' I told Ariel, ‘Well, **** it. If the UFC wants to make the fight, I'll do the fight. I'm not scared.' I really don't have anything to prove to these people, but it just kind of pissed me off. If the UFC wants to make this fight, I'm all for it. Let's do it."

Victor Belfort went from jacked to dad bod before and after USADA. Yes, getting rid of PEDs helps and was a good move. Two wrongs don't make a right here.

Ya, Overeem also looks like crap when off roids compared to on. I don't really care. Are Bisping and Hunt clean? Possible. Have they simply not tested positive? Possible. That sport is filled with PED users, so I don't care who is on or off it as it is impossible to know. What they do matters little to me as long as I see good fights. It's up to them to decide if they want to use or not, and they are fully aware of the realities of their sport. Just like Bisping said "f*** it" give me the fight.
But that is why I say make it legal, because PEDs are not bad. Abuse of PEDs is bad, misuse is bad, misinformation is bad. PEDs are made to enhance performance, they are there to help, it is ridiculous how demonized they have made out to be.
They should be a controlled, not banned.
As for weighing, your system by 'video calling' is amateur and not professional or trustworthy.

UFC already banned IV use for weight cutting years ago so they've even addressed certain issues.
It's not my system, it was one idea I came up with in 10 seconds. I also mentioned another one, random weigh ins, just like the drug tests.

How can you seek replacement fighters if they weren't tested 60 days out? For what it's worth these guys don't necessarily do traditional fitness inspired training year round. So when they do they'll lose. Fighters often change their diet during and out of camp...

Holloway was not at right weight to take over now. It's speculated he's way more than 15 lbs out, closer to 30.
You put in an exception clause for replacement fighters. Pretty freaking simple.

Now I'm no nutritionist/doctor/etc... but a lot of these guys have a team with them. If their cut is planned correctly they can do the cut in a 'healthy' way.

I'm all for doing these things but again if your solution is 2 months out with video calling when guys cheat blood tests then c'mon...it's a waste of time.
Well clearly, many of them have no proper weight cut plan.

Like I said, the day before fight is weigh in. Do it a week before, maybe 2 weeks before but 2 months? It isn't gonna happen. 2 weeks is fair enough to get replacements and I doubt a fighter can stay dehydrated that long or do that many weight cuts.

2 weeks out(Within X lbs)
1 week out(Within Y lbs)
day before fight(At weight)

Simplest way. Fights are added to cards pretty regularly, sometimes a month before. The 2 month window wouldn't work. it would need to be drastically shorter for 1) to assemble a card 2) to allow replacements.
2 months before is not the same weight.
I am not saying 2 months out, you need to be at 170 if you are in WW bout. 60/45 days out, you are allowed to be 15lbs over. 30days out you are allowed to be 10lbs over limit. 15days out, 5lbs. Come up with a system, it's really not that difficult.
If you fail, replacement fighters can be exempt depending on how much over they are.
Maybe you can allow one failed test depending on how much over they are. ETC.
It can be random weigh ins too.

I am just throwing ideas out off the top of my head, and they aren't crazy. Completely doable.

2 weeks out is not far enough. You would likely have very drastic cuts leading up to that due date.
 
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ImNeverWrong

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Conor would rather drop the soap in prison than fight khabib in the octagon. A Mcchicken he truly is.
 

mariolemieux66

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Just cancel the damn card already, **** it :facepalm: Turns out trying to cut almost 40 pounds in a week is a very dumb thing to do to your body. Who knew !
Let McGregor pay for the entire bill, damages, fan reimbursement, fighters pays with bonuses to all of them, pay for everyone waves involved and more.
 

LyricalLyricist

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Holloway’s situation was just overboard. Some outlets suggested he was close to 185 lbs. Weight cuts aren’t good but with 6 days notice this was a little much. Usually fighters, if injured, pull out sooner and give a guy a month or a few weeks.

Tony getting injured after all was said and done just screwed it all up. Conor coming in didn’t help. This card has suffered as a result and I feel bad for those who paid good money.
 

LyricalLyricist

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Just cancel the damn card already, **** it :facepalm: Turns out trying to cut almost 40 pounds in a week is a very dumb thing to do to your body. Who knew !

I heard it was closer to 30 but man 6 days notice...

Holloway coming in from Hawaii no less. Jet lagged, was injured, big weight cut, etc.

He’s a good opponent star wise but this is probably worst timing.

It’s kind of shit because Alvares said he’d be ready to step in then wasn’t. Conor said he’d be ready then wasn’t.
 

Kriss E

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I heard it was closer to 30 but man 6 days notice...

Holloway coming in from Hawaii no less. Jet lagged, was injured, big weight cut, etc.

He’s a good opponent star wise but this is probably worst timing.

It’s kind of **** because Alvares said he’d be ready to step in then wasn’t. Conor said he’d be ready then wasn’t.
It's just flat out dumb. The fact they would even ask him and start promoting when they knew he was around 30lbs out 6 days ahead, off a foot injury and hasn't fought since, to take on the top contender.
How the f*** do they even go with that.
 

LyricalLyricist

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It's just flat out dumb. The fact they would even ask him and start promoting when they knew he was around 30lbs out 6 days ahead, off a foot injury and hasn't fought since, to take on the top contender.
How the **** do they even go with that.

Desperation. After giving conor 1.5 years with no defenses they desperately want an excuse to give someone a new title.

What I don't get is for the middleweight belt they gave Whittaker the real belt once GSP vacated. He didn't need to fight for it. They could've gave Ferguson the real belt too.

Then again, something tells me Khabib would've said he refuses to fight unless for the title.

I don't know Max's true weight, it's been speculated close to 185. I know Dana White was texting a lot of fighters "How much do you currently weigh?" and if max was really 30 over this main event is his mistake. I'm sure someone in 155 was more ready than Max. Unfortunately, this was the main event #2 rank vs #15 doesn't really hold that star power either.

Fortunately and unfortunately Chiesa is out so Pettis can make weight and fight Khabib.

Maybe a solution is having fighters on standby for such situations. Ferguson and Khabib failed 4 times now.
 

Pompeius Magnus

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I guess they'll give Brock and GSP a fortune to try and carry the company for a year or two now. With GSP being the only reliable guy of the two if he's committed to a fight. Dang, the UFC is going to have to work some magic to salvage 2018 .
 

LyricalLyricist

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You are arguing over semantics. The point is mutiple weighins is very possible, doable, and simple. Those are the rules. Abide by them or GTFO. You are not asking a blind mind to play the piano like Stevie Wonder here. You are doing this to better the health of your fighters and prevent them from doing stupid weight cuts.
So 60 days is too far out...make it 45...whatever man, those are just random numbers thrown. Point is, multiple weighins would prevent these insane cuts, and they should be spread over a long enough period.

Like I said, 2 weeks, maybe 3 weeks before the fight, maybe a month. I just find more than that hard to manage,

Yes, and for some instances, the UFC also has to step in. Not all situations are equal.

Again, people do it to themselves. This isn't really a UFC problem, it's a fighter problem.

I did not imply, I threw this out as a rebuttal to your wild claim that it would cost so much cash.
But hey, sure, I mean, let's try ways to temper with the scale, risk a ban and fine, instead of cutting 5lbs to make the first cut....Ya, that makes complete sense.

My point is if people can get away with beating blood tests, they can beat a scale by video call. That's all.

I don't think it will either, but it could, if it leads to more hospitalizations.

They wouldn't get sued though. It would be more of a "Okay, we'll change the rules to protect fighters from themselves"
I didn't say it was bad, I said it's a failed system as it has been proven time and time again. PED testing is in no way shape or form a deterrent. Even for guys that have tested positive before, they will still take some and risk getting caught again.
Even if USADA is more effective at testing, they will never, ever, be ahead of science. There will always be new substances that aren't known to them being developed. Eventually, they will know about them, ban them, but by that time, other new ones will be out. That is why PEDs are not going anywhere.

Of course. At same time you know more about this stuff than I do since you're in the health and wellness field. So don't consider my objection as me discrediting you. Simply put without going into technical details that I don't know:

If they currently allow X of something in your system, some fighters will try to push to something higher.
If they unban PEDs I'm sure fighters won't be responsible.
If they limit PEDs to a higher threshold, I'm sure fighters will still push for something higher.

It's really a bitch. Best way is to remove entire thing.

Ya, Overeem also looks like crap when off roids compared to on. I don't really care. Are Bisping and Hunt clean? Possible. Have they simply not tested positive? Possible. That sport is filled with PED users, so I don't care who is on or off it as it is impossible to know. What they do matters little to me as long as I see good fights. It's up to them to decide if they want to use or not, and they are fully aware of the realities of their sport. Just like Bisping said "**** it" give me the fight.
But that is why I say make it legal, because PEDs are not bad. Abuse of PEDs is bad, misuse is bad, misinformation is bad. PEDs are made to enhance performance, they are there to help, it is ridiculous how demonized they have made out to be.
They should be a controlled, not banned.

The problem with PEDs is much less about hurting your own body and more so about hurting other people.

This isn't tennis. This is a sport where people punch and knee each other in the face. Letting people be above regular human conditions is a sure fire way to cause additional long term brain damage to other fighters.

It's not my system, it was one idea I came up with in 10 seconds. I also mentioned another one, random weigh ins, just like the drug tests.

Random weigh ins wouldn't make sense. Nate Diaz for example hasn't fought in years but is still on payroll and in testing. If he does random weigh ins he could easily lose. He's not even competing though...

You put in an exception clause for replacement fighters. Pretty freaking simple.

I'd argue as we've seen with Holloway that replacement fighters with less notice have harder cuts.

Well clearly, many of them have no proper weight cut plan.

It's happened. Some fighters have fired their team because of it.

2 months before is not the same weight.
I am not saying 2 months out, you need to be at 170 if you are in WW bout. 60/45 days out, you are allowed to be 15lbs over. 30days out you are allowed to be 10lbs over limit. 15days out, 5lbs. Come up with a system, it's really not that difficult.
If you fail, replacement fighters can be exempt depending on how much over they are.
Maybe you can allow one failed test depending on how much over they are. ETC.
It can be random weigh ins too.

A system can be made, I never disputed that. I'm disputing how easy you made it out to be.

I am just throwing ideas out off the top of my head, and they aren't crazy. Completely doable.

2 weeks out is not far enough. You would likely have very drastic cuts leading up to that due date.[/QUOTE]

Again, you said stuff like "just do this, simple" "do that, simple". My point is it is not simple at all. It seems that way but there's other considerations. Surely, they can find something better than the current landscape easily but I never understood the oversimplification. It will take a lot of planning and logistics.

I also think that what stops a guy from weight cutting if he knows he's going to be weighed X days before a fight, know what I mean?
 

Kriss E

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Desperation. After giving conor 1.5 years with no defenses they desperately want an excuse to give someone a new title.

What I don't get is for the middleweight belt they gave Whittaker the real belt once GSP vacated. He didn't need to fight for it. They could've gave Ferguson the real belt too.

Then again, something tells me Khabib would've said he refuses to fight unless for the title.

I don't know Max's true weight, it's been speculated close to 185. I know Dana White was texting a lot of fighters "How much do you currently weigh?" and if max was really 30 over this main event is his mistake. I'm sure someone in 155 was more ready than Max. Unfortunately, this was the main event #2 rank vs #15 doesn't really hold that star power either.

Fortunately and unfortunately Chiesa is out so Pettis can make weight and fight Khabib.

Maybe a solution is having fighters on standby for such situations. Ferguson and Khabib failed 4 times now.
They don't need to be desperate, they own MMA. But ya, they gotta make their money.
 

LyricalLyricist

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I guess they'll give Brock and GSP a fortune to try and carry the company for a year or two now. With GSP being the only reliable guy of the two if he's committed to a fight. Dang, the UFC is going to have to work some magic to salvage 2018 .

Not really. Cormier vs Stipe is still big upcoming fight. TJ vs Cody rematch coming up. Maybe Nunes vs cyborg.

Dana said at press conference CM would fight this year. At no point did Dana say he will release CM, never ever said it. The most he said is "would you want to watch him right now?"

Dana wants CM for a CM Khabib fight or just to have CM back still. Dana is legit terrified because even if he doesn't want CM to fight again, CM can leave and go into boxing and make more money. It's like CM can't lose, "release me" but Dana can't and won't.

At one point GSP asked for fights with UFC and they were saying no, playing hard ball, etc... He went through his legal team and claimed he can be a UFA and sign anywhere now. Soon after he got a fight.
 
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LyricalLyricist

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They don't need to be desperate, they own MMA. But ya, they gotta make their money.

Of course, it's a business in the end. They do not own combat sports and entertain though. Wrestlemania is sunday. Good chance some undecided switch over to WWE PPV buy.
 

Pompeius Magnus

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Not really. Cormier vs Stipe is still big upcoming fight. TJ vs Cody rematch coming up. Maybe mendes vs cyborg.

Dana said at press conference CM would fight this year. At no point did Dana say he will release CM, never ever said it. The most he said is "would you want to watch him right now?"

Dana wants CM for a CM Khabib fight or just to have CM back still. Dana is legit terrified because even if he doesn't want CM to fight again, CM can leave and go into boxing and make more money. It's like CM can't lose, "release me" but Dana can't and won't.

At one point GSP asked for fights with UFC and they were saying no, playing hard ball, etc... He went through his legal team and claimed he can be a UFA and sign anywhere now. Soon after he got a fight.
I was thinking more in the line of fights that will get major casual fan interest, the 1.5 million + buys, big money cards in short. Cormier vs Stipe will probably do it if properly promoted but I'm not so sure TJ vs Cody will. The new owners are still paying off the purchase of the company, they need to generate a certain number of revenue every year (I don't remember the exact figures but it's big ) . They NEED at least one or two big cards with giant casual fan interest.
 

M.C.G. 31

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Of course, it's a business in the end. They do not own combat sports and entertain though. Wrestlemania is sunday. Good chance some undecided switch over to WWE PPV buy.
They can watch Wrestlemania for free.


in regards to this, so disappointing. The card was looking STACKED and it's all unraveled in the past 24 hours thanks to Conor being a f***ing dumbass and Halloway not being fit to fight (not even including Tony's freak injury).
 

LyricalLyricist

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I was thinking more in the line of fights that will get major casual fan interest, the 1.5 million + buys, big money cards in short. Cormier vs Stipe will probably do it if properly promoted but I'm not so sure TJ vs Cody will. The new owners are still paying off the purchase of the company, they need to generate a certain number of revenue every year (I don't remember the exact figures but it's big ) . They NEED at least one or two big cards with giant casual fan interest.

True. Lesnar coming back is huge, especially if they line him with Francis. Jacked puncher vs Jacked wrestler. Everyone wants Lesnar.

Everyone wants GSP.

I'm hoping Rockhold vs Bisping 3 happens too.

I still think CM will be back. UFC created the hype, they want to cash in. He will fight Khabib, Russia, in a god damn stadium and if he loses UFC milked the last drop. If he wins, the heel status is legendary status.
 

LyricalLyricist

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They can watch Wrestlemania for free.


in regards to this, so disappointing. The card was looking STACKED and it's all unraveled in the past 24 hours thanks to Conor being a ****ing dumbass and Halloway not being fit to fight (not even including Tony's freak injury).

Wrestlemania for free? Streaming? You can stream UFC too. I've done it several times.
 
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