OT: General UFC/MMA/Boxing discussion VII

[LyricalLyricist]

One of the reasons why I say the Athletic Commissions really don't give two craps about the health of these guys.
Letting athletes dehydrate to the point of getting hospitalized is okay...but someone taking a booster to actually IMPROVE and HELP his development and performance...nope...

To be fair, they can't control someone's weight. They test weight at a certain point before the fight. Before that isn't really up to them. Drug testing is different.

 

[Mike8]

To be fair, they can't control someone's weight. They test weight at a certain point before the fight. Before that isn't really up to them. Drug testing is different.

There are ways to remove dehydration as being a 'strategy'. e.g., multiple weightings.

 

[Kriss E]

To be fair, they can't control someone's weight. They test weight at a certain point before the fight. Before that isn't really up to them. Drug testing is different.

As Mike8 just pointed out, multiple weighings. You can weigh the fighters every month since the start of their camp, allowing a certain amount over the limit, and reducing that amount progressively as you keep weighing the athletes every 2 or 4 weeks.
Not only would that prevent insane weight cuts, but it would also make most fighters fight in their natural weight class.

It's very easy to control their weight. Way way way much more than drug testing, which has been a massively failure and is in no way shape or form an effective deterrent.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

There are ways to remove dehydration as being a 'strategy'. e.g., multiple weightings.

As Mike8 just pointed out, multiple weighings. You can weigh the fighters every month since the start of their camp, allowing a certain amount over the limit, and reducing that amount progressively as you keep weighing the athletes every 2 or 4 weeks.
Not only would that prevent insane weight cuts, but it would also make most fighters fight in their natural weight class.

It's very easy to control their weight. Way way way much more than drug testing, which has been a massively failure and is in no way shape or form an effective deterrent.

They’d never do it for any sport. They do random testing off competition for drugs much less frequent than what you’re implying.

They can do a test a week out and day before as they usually do. No one will want to cut that hard twice. Outside of that I really don’t see it. It’s a huge cost to take on traveling to people for weighing a month or more before a fight. It just will never happen unless they want to lose big money.

What about fighters like max Holloway who joined 6 days before? Is he excluded for not doing weighing a month prior? 2 weeks prior?

 

[Kriss E]

They’d never do it for any sport. They do random testing off competition for drugs much less frequent than what you’re implying.

They can do a test a week out and day before as they usually do. No one will want to cut that hard twice. Outside of that I really don’t see it. It’s a huge cost to take on traveling to people for weighing a month or more before a fight. It just will never happen unless they want to lose big money.

What about fighters like max Holloway who joined 6 days before? Is he excluded for not doing weighing a month prior? 2 weeks prior?

Yes, they would never do it, because they don't really give two craps about the health of their athletes. The day they get sued over it, then they might actually react, like concussions and head trauma in NHL/NFL.

I never mentioned the frequency of drug testing so not sure why you mentioned that.

Testing a week out would not change much of anything except fighters recovering. Fighters could still do these incredibly unhealthy and damaging weight cuts, except they would do it one week before. So it wouldn't change much. You still need to do mutiple weighings over a longer period to ensure there isn't massive cuts. It wouldn't cost all that much money and they can afford it.

For someone like Holloway, well if he isn't at the proper weight, then he can't fight. Ya. Sorry, too bad for him. Just like sometimes fights are canceled. It happens. No big deal.

To be clear, I am not saying they are going to do this. I am saying if they wanted to prevent these massive weight cuts, they could easily do it by putting in multiple weighin points. Whether they want to do this, it would cost money, etc, is completely irrelevant. Point is they could do it, but they don't care about the health, which is why I find it weird they don't allow PEDs.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Yes, they would never do it, because they don't really give two craps about the health of their athletes. The day they get sued over it, then they might actually react, like concussions and head trauma in NHL/NFL.

I never mentioned the frequency of drug testing so not sure why you mentioned that.

Testing a week out would not change much of anything except fighters recovering. Fighters could still do these incredibly unhealthy and damaging weight cuts, except they would do it one week before. So it wouldn't change much. You still need to do mutiple weighings over a longer period to ensure there isn't massive cuts. It wouldn't cost all that much money and they can afford it.

For someone like Holloway, well if he isn't at the proper weight, then he can't fight. Ya. Sorry, too bad for him. Just like sometimes fights are canceled. It happens. No big deal.

To be clear, I am not saying they are going to do this. I am saying if they wanted to prevent these massive weight cuts, they could easily do it by putting in multiple weighin points. Whether they want to do this, it would cost money, etc, is completely irrelevant. Point is they could do it, but they don't care about the health, which is why I find it weird they don't allow PEDs.

I think you missed the point here.

In regards to Holloway, he's a replacement. How can a replacement be in competition weight/shape 6 days before the event? I get it. If Holloway walks around at 145-155 all year then it's not a problem right? But really...most athletes aren't in peak condition when they aren't expected to compete...In my mind what this does is hurt the people who paid good money to see the show to have their main event cancelled. Holloway already had an upcoming fight, he doesn't need the extra fight.

Now this where frequency comes in, they do random drug testing for fighters even if they're out of competition. Do you do random weighing for out of competition fighters? What for? Would Holloway need to step on a scale 3 months ago for the hell of it? What makes this even more perplexing is drug testing isn't done the typical way when you go to a clinic or whatever. USADA collects the sample, unannounced, in person. So unless they want a fraud system they'd have to travel to the person, bring their own scale and make him step on it. For what? Weight can fluctuate wildly. I lost 15 lbs in a month eating wtv I wanted. A professional athlete under a diet plan can make gains/lose weight even quicker I'm sure depending on their starting weight. So you'll test out of competition people monthly for weight? It's nice to live in a fantasy land but they'd go broke. That's nuts.

The logical answer is "well only weigh fighters who have upcoming fights", sure...then back to square one. Holloway and others wouldn't be eligible for the fight leaving the main event slot empty...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of the dramatic weight cuts but at a certain point these guys are responsible for themselves. They will never ever get sued for weight cuts, ever.

Mark Hunt of the UFC was livid about fighting guys who tested positive for PEDs and actually sued the UFC for Lesnar's failed test:

“LESNAR, WHITE, and UFC, acted in concert as set forth fully above, to defraud HUNT and commit a battery against HUNT by a scheme to knowingly pit HUNT, a clean fighter, against LESNAR, a doping fighter, to the wrongful benefit of Defendants and to the detriment of HUNT,” the complaint reads.

There's a simple reason why...because he claims that the UFC put his health in danger by making him face an unclean fighter. I repeat, he's blaming the UFC for something OUT of his control. Blaming the UFC because you're not at the weight you signed up for is something IN your control. They'd never get sued for it.

I think it's nice that we all want an even playing field and healthy competitors. Who doesn't? Realize that proper weight testing to deter heavy cutting whilst ensuring the show will go on is A) insanely expensive and B) impossible in the format you are suggesting(You suggest just cancel the main card and you can't replace it...)

The solution will need to be more complex than "weigh them X weeks before" because it fails to consider replacements, out of competition fighters, the drastic fluctuation in weight. PEDs can stay in your system for a few months correct? Some athletes have been known to cut 5-10 lbs just competing. NFL Linemen can lose 3% of their body fat. Dan Ellis claimed he lost about 13 lbs a game. Weight is fluctuates a lot more than testing. You know this. I'm all for additional testing but it has to make sense. Not to mention USADA exists without the UFC as a government anti doping agency. The UFC will need some random company to step up and do an 'anti-weight cut' agency which to my knowledge doesn't exist...

So again, we both want the same thing but I think you underestimate how difficult/unnecessary it is in certain cases. How much these rules will impact the fans. How no agency even does this type of testing yet, etc...

 

[MD thaivuN]

random weight-in is just overly too much effort. You know what's a fine solution? The college wrestling or the ONE FC weight-in model: Same day as the fight weight-in. Make it so there is very little time between the weigh-in and the fight to recover from the cut. And then after the weigh-in, have a doctor check if you're healthy and properly hydrated to fight.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Conor McGregor's chaotic arrival after UFC 223 media day causes damage, injury to Michael Chiesa
Come on Conor, geez Possible criminal charges incoming apparently per Dana. Add that to the whole attacking a referee at a Bellator event thing to the symptoms of the dude slowly but surely losing his mind.

 

[MD thaivuN]

Conor McGregor's chaotic arrival after UFC 223 media day causes damage, injury to Michael Chiesa
Come on Conor, geez Possible criminal charges incoming apparently per Dana. Add that to the whole attacking a referee at a Bellator event thing to the symptoms of the dude slowly but surely losing his mind.

wtf is Conor is doing?

I didn't think it was possible. He became a bigger f***up than Jon Jones.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

wtf is Conor is doing?

I didn't think it was possible. He became a bigger f***up than Jon Jones.

He's believing his own gimmick WAY too much at this point, it's becoming kinda pathetic and sad.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Apparently he's after Khabib because khabib went after Lobov.

Lobov was forced to move to another hotel after Khabib went after him in the hallway.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Apparently he's after Khabib because khabib went after Lobov.

Lobov was forced to move to another hotel after Khabib went after him in the hallway.

I'm sure he felt justified but it's still some crazy stuff that could get him in a lot of trouble. There are more mature ways of reacting to things.

 

[Kriss E]

I think you missed the point here.

In regards to Holloway, he's a replacement. How can a replacement be in competition weight/shape 6 days before the event? I get it. If Holloway walks around at 145-155 all year then it's not a problem right? But really...most athletes aren't in peak condition when they aren't expected to compete...In my mind what this does is hurt the people who paid good money to see the show to have their main event cancelled. Holloway already had an upcoming fight, he doesn't need the extra fight.

So be it. You make it sound like canceling fights doesn't happen. It does. Also allowing fighters to take on fights 6 days before is another sign they don't give two shits about their fighters.

Like I said, if the health of their fighters was their priority, they wouldn't allow these things.

Now this where frequency comes in, they do random drug testing for fighters even if they're out of competition. Do you do random weighing for out of competition fighters? What for? Would Holloway need to step on a scale 3 months ago for the hell of it? What makes this even more perplexing is drug testing isn't done the typical way when you go to a clinic or whatever. USADA collects the sample, unannounced, in person. So unless they want a fraud system they'd have to travel to the person, bring their own scale and make him step on it. For what? Weight can fluctuate wildly. I lost 15 lbs in a month eating wtv I wanted. A professional athlete under a diet plan can make gains/lose weight even quicker I'm sure depending on their starting weight. So you'll test out of competition people monthly for weight? It's nice to live in a fantasy land but they'd go broke. That's nuts.

You start weigh in for confirmed fights 2 months before the fight, or 45 days. It's honestly incredibly simple. You do random weigh in, can be done by video call.
Honestly, a few trial and errors, you find the best system. Easy, simple, and done.
And even if they want to operate on a random note, in person. Starting 60-45 days out of a fight, fighters can be randomly selected for weigh in. It wouldn't cost them all that much. UFC is a billion dollar industry, they would be just fine. Go broke...ya right, that's funny.

The logical answer is "well only weigh fighters who have upcoming fights", sure...then back to square one. Holloway and others wouldn't be eligible for the fight leaving the main event slot empty...

So? It happens. Holloway shouldn't even have agreed to the fight anyways. Coming off a foot injury, hasn't fought since, no training camp, going to heavier weight class, against the top contender.
Ya, that is stupid in and of itself already. That shouldn't happen to begin with.
It sucks, but main events sometimes don't come through.
But they don't care about their fighters, so they allow this to happen. Just like they allow insane weight cuts.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of the dramatic weight cuts but at a certain point these guys are responsible for themselves. They will never ever get sued for weight cuts, ever.

Well that really doesn't have much to do with what was the discussion. You said it would be very difficult or impossible to control weight cuts better, I said it would be very simple. Whether it's the athletes fault or it would be expensive is besides the point.
Fact is they could do it.

Mark Hunt of the UFC was livid about fighting guys who tested positive for PEDs and actually sued the UFC for Lesnar's failed test:

“LESNAR, WHITE, and UFC, acted in concert as set forth fully above, to defraud HUNT and commit a battery against HUNT by a scheme to knowingly pit HUNT, a clean fighter, against LESNAR, a doping fighter, to the wrongful benefit of Defendants and to the detriment of HUNT,” the complaint reads.

There's a simple reason why...because he claims that the UFC put his health in danger by making him face an unclean fighter. I repeat, he's blaming the UFC for something OUT of his control. Blaming the UFC because you're not at the weight you signed up for is something IN your control. They'd never get sued for it.

Again, this doesn't have much to do with my point.
But for the record, Mark Hunt fought in Pride, where taking PEDs was encouraged. They flat out state in their contracts that athletes will not be tested for PEDs. Never heard Hunt complain about this, have you?
Also if they lifted this dumb PED ban, then Hunt wouldn't have been able to sue.
And who cares if they can't get sued over weight cut? What does this have to do with anything?

I think it's nice that we all want an even playing field and healthy competitors. Who doesn't? Realize that proper weight testing to deter heavy cutting whilst ensuring the show will go on is A) insanely expensive and B) impossible in the format you are suggesting(You suggest just cancel the main card and you can't replace it...)

A) You have no idea what the cost would be. None.
B) There is nothing impossible. Main events have been canceled before.

I don't care about the even playing field, I think PEDs should be legal. I said I find it ironic how they allow the weight cuts but ban PEDs, because they really do not give two shits about the health of their athletes. Random weigh ins for confirmed fighters up to 60 days prior to a fight. Not expensive, and easily applicable. But they have absolutely nothing to gain out of this, except keeping fighters a bit healthier....so they will never do it. Until someone suffers long term serious health issues due to those insane weight cuts and they get sued for negligence.

The solution will need to be more complex than "weigh them X weeks before" because it fails to consider replacements, out of competition fighters, the drastic fluctuation in weight. PEDs can stay in your system for a few months correct? Some athletes have been known to cut 5-10 lbs just competing. NFL Linemen can lose 3% of their body fat. Dan Ellis claimed he lost about 13 lbs a game. Weight is fluctuates a lot more than testing. You know this. I'm all for additional testing but it has to make sense. Not to mention USADA exists without the UFC as a government anti doping agency. The UFC will need some random company to step up and do an 'anti-weight cut' agency which to my knowledge doesn't exist...

There is no ''drastic fluctuation in weight''. You don't wake up one day 15 lbs lighter without having done something very impactful. I have been at 88kg for 6 months. I train 5-8x per week, I eat pretty much the same every week.
What does Dan Ellis sweating 13lbs of water weight during a game has to do with this??
Again, it's pretty simple. You are 60 days out? You are allowed to be 15lbs over weight limit. 30 days out, 10lbs. You threaten fighters with random weight cuts.
If the fighter doesn't make weight, he's out. You seek out replacement fighters who do fit the weight limit. Just like Holloway was at the right weight to take over now. It's the same damn thing.
Like I said, you're just trying to find excuses but in reality, it would be very simple.

Sure, you'd have to spend some money and organize it all, so yes, it would require cash and work. But totally doable.

So again, we both want the same thing but I think you underestimate how difficult/unnecessary it is in certain cases. How much these rules will impact the fans. How no agency even does this type of testing yet, etc...

It would make their lives more complicated, sure, and they don't want to waste money when they don't have to, so it's not going to happen. But it wouldn't be difficult at all to do if they actually wanted to go through with it.

 

[Mike Mike Caron]

So McGregor really believes in his own character, that is sad.

 

[c3z4r]

Holy shit I just saw the megathread on reddit with all the videos. What a f***ing shitshow this event might turn out to be.

So Artem is out, Chiesa has facial lacerations that might put him out of the fight and Rose was in the same bus with Chiesa and Khabib but was uninjured as far as initial reports are saying.

This is some WWE type of controversy happening here.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Holy **** I just saw the megathread on reddit with all the videos. What a ****ing ****show this event might turn out to be.

So Artem is out, Chiesa has facial lacerations that might put him out of the fight and Rose was in the same bus with Chiesa and Khabib but was uninjured as far as initial reports are saying.

This is some WWE type of controversy happening here.

Conor McGregor sought by NYPD for questioning in UFC 223 bus incident
The NYPD is looking for Conor, who hasn't turned himself in yet as far as Ariel knows. Even in a best case scenario he's in deep trouble this time. He's not getting out of this with a slap on the wirst.

 

[MD thaivuN]

Add Ray Borg to the list of casualties. He's getting his eye checked at the hospital. He was sitting next to Chiesa during the glass incident

 

[c3z4r]

Add Ray Borg to the list of casualties. He's getting his eye checked at the hospital. He was sitting next to Chiesa during the glass incident

seems like it's official now, borg is not fighting anymore

Ray Borg's UFC 223 fight scrapped with eye issue reportedly from Conor McGregor bus attack

Jesus, what a complete shitshow. At this point, you gotta wonder what UFC will do with McGregor regardless if he gets a slap on the wrist or not.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Jesus

 

[Kriss E]

seems like it's official now, borg is not fighting anymore

Ray Borg's UFC 223 fight scrapped with eye issue reportedly from Conor McGregor bus attack

Jesus, what a complete ****show. At this point, you gotta wonder what UFC will do with McGregor regardless if he gets a slap on the wrist or not.

I mean, put UFC aside for a second, all the fighters that have suffered physical or mental stress from this can sue him.
Then there's criminal charges from city.
After all that, there's the UFC.

Not sure what's with CM. Acting like a teenager..hell is wrong with him, and who in the world is advising him?

 

[TRG]

f*** McGregor

 

[jackeymoon]

wtf is Conor is doing?

I didn't think it was possible. He became a bigger f***up than Jon Jones.

How is that worse than being a degenerate coke head who has a bunch of kids with a bunch of different women and literally hit and ran a pregnant woman/almost killing her without any remorse?

Conor was a f***ing idiot but that doesn't make him worse than the literal worst person in the UFC... lol

 

[MD thaivuN]

How is that worse than being a degenerate coke head who has a bunch of kids with a bunch of different women and literally hit and ran a pregnant woman/almost killing her without any remorse?

Conor was a ****ing idiot but that doesn't make him worse than the literal worst person in the UFC... lol

Jon Jones wasn't trying to hurt the woman. Conor was very much trying to hurt people. Both are scum, both are degenerate cokeheads. The intent pushes Conor to the next level of sh**

 

[LyricalLyricist]

So be it. You make it sound like canceling fights doesn't happen. It does. Also allowing fighters to take on fights 6 days before is another sign they don't give two ****s about their fighters.

Like I said, if the health of their fighters was their priority, they wouldn't allow these things.

You start weigh in for confirmed fights 2 months before the fight, or 45 days. It's honestly incredibly simple. You do random weigh in, can be done by video call.
Honestly, a few trial and errors, you find the best system. Easy, simple, and done.
And even if they want to operate on a random note, in person. Starting 60-45 days out of a fight, fighters can be randomly selected for weigh in. It wouldn't cost them all that much. UFC is a billion dollar industry, they would be just fine. Go broke...ya right, that's funny.

A lot of fights aren't even settled 2-3 months before the fight. The main event was announced less than 2.5 months prior, image the rest of the card.

Given that you say everyone takes PEDs and find ways around the blood testing that is administered in person what makes you think they can't adjust a scale if you're monitoring by video?

The go broke comment was about an agency, the work wouldn't justify the cost.

So? It happens. Holloway shouldn't even have agreed to the fight anyways. Coming off a foot injury, hasn't fought since, no training camp, going to heavier weight class, against the top contender.
Ya, that is stupid in and of itself already. That shouldn't happen to begin with.
It sucks, but main events sometimes don't come through.
But they don't care about their fighters, so they allow this to happen. Just like they allow insane weight cuts.

And Tony Ferguson kicks steel poles to train, is he responsible or should UFC step in as well? At a certain point you're responsible for what you do to your own body.

Well that really doesn't have much to do with what was the discussion. You said it would be very difficult or impossible to control weight cuts better, I said it would be very simple. Whether it's the athletes fault or it would be expensive is besides the point.
Fact is they could do it.

The problem is you implied 2 month weight check by video call. You go on and on about PEDs being masked in tests but a scale by video call is flawless? C'mon. Not to mention as I said many fights aren't even put together over 2 months prior.

Again, this doesn't have much to do with my point.
But for the record, Mark Hunt fought in Pride, where taking PEDs was encouraged. They flat out state in their contracts that athletes will not be tested for PEDs. Never heard Hunt complain about this, have you?
Also if they lifted this dumb PED ban, then Hunt wouldn't have been able to sue.
And who cares if they can't get sued over weight cut? What does this have to do with anything?

You said:

Yes, they would never do it, because they don't really give two craps about the health of their athletes. The day they get sued over it, then they might actually react, like concussions and head trauma in NHL/NFL.

I'm saying day will never happen.

As for Hunt with PEDs in pride. Scott Stevens was once applauded for his head shots. Shit changes. UFC didn't want until they got sued to implement USADA, this is bad because?​

A) You have no idea what the cost would be. None.
B) There is nothing impossible. Main events have been canceled before.

I don't care about the even playing field, I think PEDs should be legal. I said I find it ironic how they allow the weight cuts but ban PEDs, because they really do not give two ****s about the health of their athletes. Random weigh ins for confirmed fighters up to 60 days prior to a fight. Not expensive, and easily applicable. But they have absolutely nothing to gain out of this, except keeping fighters a bit healthier....so they will never do it. Until someone suffers long term serious health issues due to those insane weight cuts and they get sued for negligence.

Michael Bisping severely damaged his eye fighting against a guy who was on PEDs.

"We all know the dangers of this sport. I mean, we're trying to knock each other out. I've been left permanently disfigured, if you will, from my fight with Vitor Belfort. Vitor Belfort head kicked me and that's what caused my detached retina. Since then, I've had five surgeries, and my eye is never going to look the same again. That was one of the reasons why I said I was never fighting anybody else with a steroid history. But with all the backlash on Twitter, this and that, people saying, ‘Oh he's scared,' I told Ariel, ‘Well, f*** it. If the UFC wants to make the fight, I'll do the fight. I'm not scared.' I really don't have anything to prove to these people, but it just kind of pissed me off. If the UFC wants to make this fight, I'm all for it. Let's do it."

Victor Belfort went from jacked to dad bod before and after USADA. Yes, getting rid of PEDs helps and was a good move. Two wrongs don't make a right here.

As for weighing, your system by 'video calling' is amateur and not professional or trustworthy.

UFC already banned IV use for weight cutting years ago so they've even addressed certain issues.

There is no ''drastic fluctuation in weight''. You don't wake up one day 15 lbs lighter without having done something very impactful. I have been at 88kg for 6 months. I train 5-8x per week, I eat pretty much the same every week.
What does Dan Ellis sweating 13lbs of water weight during a game has to do with this??
Again, it's pretty simple. You are 60 days out? You are allowed to be 15lbs over weight limit. 30 days out, 10lbs. You threaten fighters with random weight cuts.
If the fighter doesn't make weight, he's out. You seek out replacement fighters who do fit the weight limit. Just like Holloway was at the right weight to take over now. It's the same damn thing.
Like I said, you're just trying to find excuses but in reality, it would be very simple.

How can you seek replacement fighters if they weren't tested 60 days out? For what it's worth these guys don't necessarily do traditional fitness inspired training year round. So when they do they'll lose. Fighters often change their diet during and out of camp...

Holloway was not at right weight to take over now. It's speculated he's way more than 15 lbs out, closer to 30.

Sure, you'd have to spend some money and organize it all, so yes, it would require cash and work. But totally doable.


It would make their lives more complicated, sure, and they don't want to waste money when they don't have to, so it's not going to happen. But it wouldn't be difficult at all to do if they actually wanted to go through with it.

Now I'm no nutritionist/doctor/etc... but a lot of these guys have a team with them. If their cut is planned correctly they can do the cut in a 'healthy' way.

I'm all for doing these things but again if your solution is 2 months out with video calling when guys cheat blood tests then c'mon...it's a waste of time.

Like I said, the day before fight is weigh in. Do it a week before, maybe 2 weeks before but 2 months? It isn't gonna happen. 2 weeks is fair enough to get replacements and I doubt a fighter can stay dehydrated that long or do that many weight cuts.

2 weeks out(Within X lbs)
1 week out(Within Y lbs)
day before fight(At weight)

Simplest way. Fights are added to cards pretty regularly, sometimes a month before. The 2 month window wouldn't work. it would need to be drastically shorter for 1) to assemble a card 2) to allow replacements.

 

[Skip Bayless]

Lost all respect for McGregor as a man and athlete. f*** that guy.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

Was such a big fan of Conor. Now? Ugh.

What a f***ing idiot.