OT: Fitness and Nutrition Part V

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Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
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Some elaboration:

1) In our scientific discussions on veganism in the past few months here I did come that the disadvantages of veganism, all of the ones that I could argue with a straight face, would whither away with modest consumption of animal products, avoidance of becoming a junk food vegan, and emphasis on fats (nuts, seeds, avocado, olive, coconut). That was true to the extent of my "knowledge", as a modest consumption of animal products is enough to bring in D3, K2, retinol, EPA, DHA, etc. and other micronutrients that are harder to find in plant-based sources. Perhaps, though, my reasoning is **** (somehow), and then this will fail and I'll find that educational.

My breakfast this morning was haphazard: some strawberries, some kombucha, some mixed nuts, and a spoon of coconut oil. I'm working on it. When my mixed nuts run out I will replace them with a container of salted mixed nuts, to get more salt, which is harder to do without meat.

2) I am finding it difficult to eat as much. First, just cutting out sugar is major for me, I was eating *a lot* of pastries/cookies/ice cream the past few weeks, certainly more than 1,000 calories a day on many days. It did contribute adipose fat and that's bad ... but some of it was converted to energy and it's going to be hard to replace. I'm finding myself a little tired, and a little dizzy too when I stand up. You know, if you pick up a chocolate-cherry scone with your latté in the morning, that's 600 calories right there. It doesn't all go to fat, some of it is converted to energy.

It's kind of as if I've been fasting for a few days, but I have not been and it's not going to get better unless I eat more. When fasting, the body eventually starts converting ~2,500 calories a day of body fat into energy, and then mood recovers. That cannot happen on a low-calorie, high-carb diet due to the insulin, the body has a relatively hard time converting body fat into energy, and so "calories in, calories out" will take the form of slower metabolism. So I'll have to figure out how to eat more. I think that I only have a few days to do this properly otherwise I risk getting very sick.

Most of the restaurants nearby have no supportive options, nearly all don't, and it's unbearable to eat the same thing over and over again. This does explicitly reveal a major reason why a lot of vegans are healthier: they cannot eat out. They cannot go to most restaurants. They cannot use vending machines or buy chocolate bars from the gas station as those usually contain dairy, gelatin, etc. They are forced to prepare their own food, which is intrinsically healthier. Alternatively, however, it's also anti-social if you have to avoid most social outings ending up in restaurants where you can't eat.

ETA: Today's lunch was a bowl of rice, vegetables, tofu, sesame seeds, dressing, and spices at an Asian place. The dressing (e.g. hot sauce, soy sauce) likely contained added sugar. Afterwards I had a banana, an apple, and a coffee.
1) How are you going to test your levels? regular blood work?
2) It could be that you are just adapting, but if you feel tired get some more fat in you. Maybe add some natural juice too, quick way to get some energy.

No doubt it must be harder to find vegan food in restaurants, I mean, they can't eat much of anything, so if you also cut out sugar...A lot of pasta sauces contain sugar, just like your asian dressing, so even if you dine out and go for some zucchini pasta, good chance whatever sauce they put over contains sugar.

I think you might be better off scratching this experiment and re-starting when you can have more control over it. You pretty much cheated every day so far..lol
 

DAChampion

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May 28, 2011
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The guy may have some good points, but he's all over the place, and yeah, results vary from one individual to another (most know that already), meh. His book may be better though.

Besides, wether it's sugar, salt or fat, I'd go see a specialist before going on a specific diet. Just thinking "I'll cut some fat off" or something rarely works.

as for the previous comment, just to make clear, it wasnt about you needing to cut on the salt, but was wondering why you needed to ADD more salt ?
Are you concerned with salt? What's your blood pressure?

Mine is regularly around 120/80, consistently so. Though recently. I went to my doctor while having an URI, I was taking a lot of ibuprofen and it jumped to 140/80 which was the highest that I had ever seen. It went down the next times that I went to the doctor lol, which suggests that it was due to the URI/ibuprofen combination. However, it's since gone back down to 120/80.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that my consumption of coffee and tea is good enough reason in and of itself.

1) How are you going to test your levels? regular blood work?
2) It could be that you are just adapting, but if you feel tired get some more fat in you. Maybe add some natural juice too, quick way to get some energy.

No doubt it must be harder to find vegan food in restaurants, I mean, they can't eat much of anything, so if you also cut out sugar...A lot of pasta sauces contain sugar, just like your asian dressing, so even if you dine out and go for some zucchini pasta, good chance whatever sauce they put over contains sugar.

I think you might be better off scratching this experiment and re-starting when you can have more control over it. You pretty much cheated every day so far..lol
I'm not trying to be perfect, I mean does it matter? It does for allergies, but not for this. I'm happy with the trend, and the trend has been strong this week. This is a significant change in spite of not being perfect.

ETA: I might actually do some tests soon but there's another change ... the Sun has returned. Finally !!! But it does mean that my D3 levels will go up and my sleep will improve, so my testosterone should increase, should it not? And that will cascade to other hormones.
 

Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
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I'm not trying to be perfect, I mean does it matter? It does for allergies, but not for this. I'm happy with the trend, and the trend has been strong this week. This is a significant change in spite of not being perfect.
It matters only if you are trying to reach any type of conclusion.

ETA: I might actually do some tests soon but there's another change ... the Sun has returned. Finally !!! But it does mean that my D3 levels will go up and my sleep will improve, so my testosterone should increase, should it not? And that will cascade to other hormones.
Could be...could be a bunch of factors added together.

You should get some strength work going and you seriously need to build your back.
The most common problem for chronic back pain is a borderline complete ignoring of reinforcing their back muscles. The stronger your back, the less likely it is to get hurt.
 

DAChampion

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May 28, 2011
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It matters only if you are trying to reach any type of conclusion.


Could be...could be a bunch of factors added together.

You should get some strength work going and you seriously need to build your back.
The most common problem for chronic back pain is a borderline complete ignoring of reinforcing their back muscles. The stronger your back, the less likely it is to get hurt.

The back or the entire core? I've had physiotherapists tell me that strong cores are essential for strong backs . Perhaps I might have misunderstood?
 

Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
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The back or the entire core? I've had physiotherapists tell me that strong cores are essential for strong backs . Perhaps I might have misunderstood?
A weak core will lead to other areas compensating, often time the lower back gets the bulk of the damage.
A lot of people will actually feel pulling in their lower back as they do sit ups. That is a perfect example of how a weak, or perhaps an ignorant, core can lead to back pain.
To put it simply, the psoas is a core muscle that runs from your lumbar to the front and inside of the femur. This muscle contributes to flexion of the hip.
Now, when someone does a sit up without actually focusing on abdominal contractions, the psoas ends up doing the bulk of the work. When that muscle is fatigued seeing how it is attached to your lumbar, lower back pain ensues.
So it's important to not just work the core, but do it effectively.
In no way shape or form should your lower back feel any pain from abdominal/core work. If it does, well you simply aren't doing it right.

One of our core's purpose is to serve as postural support and protection, but so is the same for our back muscles.
Working on the core only does half the work. A lot of people with strong core still get back pain, because that part is weak. Also, the way they treat it is by 1) rest 2) more core work 3) stay away from back exercises.

If your lower back keeps hurting you without having any slipped disc or other big issue, then you are doing something wrong.
 
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ECWHSWI

TOUGHEN UP.
Oct 27, 2006
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Are you concerned with salt? What's your blood pressure?

Mine is regularly around 120/80, consistently so. Though recently. I went to my doctor while having an URI, I was taking a lot of ibuprofen and it jumped to 140/80 which was the highest that I had ever seen. It went down the next times that I went to the doctor lol, which suggests that it was due to the URI/ibuprofen combination. However, it's since gone back down to 120/80.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that my consumption of coffee and tea is good enough reason in and of itself.
heart problems but pressure is and has always been fine.

Didnt know about that as I don't drink coffee/tea.
 

DAChampion

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May 28, 2011
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A weak core will lead to other areas compensating, often time the lower back gets the bulk of the damage.
A lot of people will actually feel pulling in their lower back as they do sit ups. That is a perfect example of how a weak, or perhaps an ignorant, core can lead to back pain.
To put it simply, the psoas is a core muscle that runs from your lumbar to the front and inside of the femur. This muscle contributes to flexion of the hip.
Now, when someone does a sit up without actually focusing on abdominal contractions, the psoas ends up doing the bulk of the work. When that muscle is fatigued seeing how it is attached to your lumbar, lower back pain ensues.
So it's important to not just work the core, but do it effectively.
In no way shape or form should your lower back feel any pain from abdominal/core work. If it does, well you simply aren't doing it right.

One of our core's purpose is to serve as postural support and protection, but so is the same for our back muscles.
Working on the core only does half the work. A lot of people with strong core still get back pain, because that part is weak. Also, the way they treat it is by 1) rest 2) more core work 3) stay away from back exercises.

If your lower back keeps hurting you without having any slipped disc or other big issue, then you are doing something wrong.

It's fine now due to the yoga, however putting on strength might help protect it in the future. I have somewhat bulging disks, to the MRIs in 2015. A legacy of years of being overweight, bad posture, carrying heavy backpacks, etc.

What do you think of the seated row as a workout machine? It's supposed to work the lower back and trainers love it, but I only ever feel the strain in the arms.
 

Mrb1p

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It's fine now due to the yoga, however putting on strength might help protect it in the future. I have somewhat bulging disks, to the MRIs in 2015. A legacy of years of being overweight, bad posture, carrying heavy backpacks, etc.

What do you think of the seated row as a workout machine? It's supposed to work the lower back and trainers love it, but I only ever feel the strain in the arms.
Seated, as in with a cable/pulley system ? There shouldn't be any lower back involvement, it's actually terrible advice from your trainers if this is what they really said.

Depending on the level of your injury I don't know if I would recommend hip hinge work as it is going to stress your back, but I really think unilateral work is the way to go for recovery, especially in bulging disks.

Don't forget that a bulging disk/herniated disk or any form of injury shouldn't define what you are though, a lot of profesional would rather have you stay in bed all day and not do anything. The best course of action would be to find a chiropractor that works for you, as opposed to working for their own personal benefits. Youre a smart guy and I think you could potentially find the best candidate.
 
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DAChampion

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Seated, as in with a cable/pulley system ? There shouldn't be any lower back involvement, it's actually terrible advice from your trainers if this is what they really said.

Depending on the level of your injury I don't know if I would recommend hip hinge work as it is going to stress your back, but I really think unilateral work is the way to go for recovery, especially in bulging disks.

Don't forget that a bulging disk/herniated disk or any form of injury shouldn't define what you are though, a lot of profesional would rather have you stay in bed all day and not do anything. The best course of action would be to find a chiropractor that works for you, as opposed to working for their own personal benefits. Youre a smart guy and I think you could potentially find the best candidate.

This thing:
cable-low-seated-row.jpg
 

Mrb1p

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This thing:
cable-low-seated-row.jpg
Its one of the option you have to strengthen your upper back for sure, removes the hip hinge so yeah its fine but it shouldnt be a move used as a lower back exercise or anything close to that.

As for the only feeling in the arm comment, it shouldnt be. Theres a few cues that I use for rows, the simpler ones are engage the movement with your shoulders rather than your hands and pinch your back as if you were trying to hold a pencil between your shoulder blade at the end of the move.
 
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Kriss E

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It's fine now due to the yoga, however putting on strength might help protect it in the future. I have somewhat bulging disks, to the MRIs in 2015. A legacy of years of being overweight, bad posture, carrying heavy backpacks, etc.

What do you think of the seated row as a workout machine? It's supposed to work the lower back and trainers love it, but I only ever feel the strain in the arms.
Well that is some time ago, do you still have them? I would advise you to get some massages going and keep stretching, while slowly ramping up weights.

I personally cannot get enough rowing exercises. DB Rows is probably my favorite. Bent over BB Rows, seated cable rows, supinated, pronated, neutral, elbow out, uni or bilateral...I love them all.
I would also see how doing banded good mornings and reverse leg lifts make you feel.

As for feeeling it in the arms, well, it's inevitable, you will feel your arms work as you're pulling with them. That said, you should also really focus on how you're activating your scaps.
Depending on the level of your injury I don't know if I would recommend hip hinge work as it is going to stress your back, but I really think unilateral work is the way to go for recovery, especially in bulging disks.

Depends on where the load is. Reverse hyper extensions would be great, although probably doesn't fall under the hinging category. I wouldn't advise against a hinge though, just slowly work on the angle of hinging and the load. If the person feels no pain, moves well, then I see no reason to stay away.
Another good exercise that can help build legs and provide spinal relief is the hip belt squat. The spine is not being compressed like on a Front/Back squat, one can argue it actually stretches out the spine. I'd definitely see how he responds to that as well.
 
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DAChampion

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When I go to the gym tomorrow I'll take some photos of the available equipment and report back to you. Thanks for the info guys.
 

Mrb1p

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Well that is some time ago, do you still have them? I would advise you to get some massages going and keep stretching, while slowly ramping up weights.

I personally cannot get enough rowing exercises. DB Rows is probably my favorite. Bent over BB Rows, seated cable rows, supinated, pronated, neutral, elbow out, uni or bilateral...I love them all.
I would also see how doing banded good mornings and reverse leg lifts make you feel.

As for feeeling it in the arms, well, it's inevitable, you will feel your arms work as you're pulling with them. That said, you should also really focus on how you're activating your scaps.


Depends on where the load is. Reverse hyper extensions would be great, although probably doesn't fall under the hinging category. I wouldn't advise against a hinge though, just slowly work on the angle of hinging and the load. If the person feels no pain, moves well, then I see no reason to stay away.
Another good exercise that can help build legs and provide spinal relief is the hip belt squat. The spine is not being compressed like on a Front/Back squat, one can argue it actually stretches out the spine. I'd definitely see how he responds to that as well.

I find its really tough to speak without real medical information or what ever but yeah, obviously hinge is fine if the weight is able to be controlled.
 

DAChampion

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What's hinge?

lol.

What about this thing:

back-extension-exercise.jpg

When you add weight, do you keep the disk chest level, or above your crown?
 

DAChampion

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I skipped breakfast this morning (a bit of intermittent fast) and had lunch around 1245. I went to an Indian restaurant and had some sort of chaat (potatoes, chick peas, cilantro, sauces) and a red lentil soup. Surprisingly, I was full from that relatively modest lunch.

I really love dessert and I crave sugar after meals. I decided to placate that by packing three clementines for after lunch. Clems have a "healthy" reputation but their benefits are arguably modest: Only 15% of the carbs are fiber, and their RDA% exceeds their Calorie% for vitamin C, B1, B3, B6, B9, calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, potassium, and copper. OK, maybe that's not bad actually. Anyway, the main advantage is that I had three of them and it only costs ~100 calories. So the ratio of satisfaction to sugar is higher than, say, a brownie (~400+ calories).

Interestingly, I forgot that I had the Clems and actually ate them an hour after then I could.

I discussed this diet with my therapist today. She's a little worried about me (I've got body image issues in case it's not obvious). She did say that she's curious how the decline in sugar consumption will affect my mood. As some of you may or may not know, there is evidence that excess sugar consumption, and/or deficient fat consumption, harms the brain, though the research is preliminary and it's hard to make precise conclusions.
 
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Mrb1p

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What's hinge?

lol.

What about this thing:

back-extension-exercise.jpg

When you add weight, do you keep the disk chest level, or above your crown?

The hip hinge is the position in which you put yourself anytime you do bent over work, which includes deadlifts, rows, good mornings, etc. Just google hip hinge and youll understand quick enough.

As for the hyperextension at 45°, I use those to warm up/stretch mostly, but I think it could be good for someone recovering from a lower back injury.

The problem is that we dont know where your injury stems from. Your body isnt a blank slate, it has imperfections and kinks that we cannot acount for. The problem could be from anywhere from your hips, to your ankles, to your posture, etc. Its tough to say. A reason why I put emphasis on unilateral work is that it allows you to train away your deficiencies, which almost always translates in a stronger and healthier body.

Having someone qualified assess your mobility and your deficiencies would be huge, obviously, but I understand this is not always possible.
 

BeastMode420

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Jan 30, 2018
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Great to hear, i hope it stays very healthy and you live a long and healthy life, i really mean that.

I understand that you wanna eat meat and that's fine, it's your body and your choice, but an innocent animal was tortured and killed in the process and that doesn't sit well with many people, it's just not a very nice thing to do to rub it in a Vegan's face, again i understand that you consider it your food but it's the animal cruelty aspect of it that hurts people's feelings. Go ahead and eat it, just maybe try and be a little more compassionate to the animal cruelty part of it if you could.

I could care less about innocent animals. I worry more about human being like babies or war over the world than the death of a stupid cow. The day a Lion will start to eat grass and Tofu I might change my mind.

Plants have feeling too, nobody cares about plants though
 
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DAChampion

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Dinner tonight was less haphazard than last night.

- 1 cup of kombucha;
- Half a serving of mixed nuts;
- Chickpeas (garbanzo beans for the hicks) cooked with onion, garlic, leek, light olive oil, salt, pepper, cumin, and chili flakes;
- gluten-free crackers with hard cheese (my serving of fermented dairy);
- Cup of fresh strawberries;

Maybe 800 +/- 100 calories total, I'm not sure. If I were more obsessive I'd measure the cheese and the olive oil.

Light olive oil is used, rather than extra virgin, because it was heated. It turns out that lighter oils are better for heated food. Alternatively, I might have just drizzled it with extra virgin olive oil at the end, when the food was already cooked, but I need a fat in the pan to help cook the onion, garlic, and leek.

Chickpeas are described here,
Chickpeas (garbanzo beans, bengal gram), mature seeds, cooked, boiled, without salt Nutrition Facts & Calories
1 cup gives you 13% of your daily calories, but more than 13% of your fiber, protein, B1, B9, iron, magnesium, potassium, phosphorus, zinc, copper, manganese.
 

DAChampion

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May 28, 2011
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Is it real home made kombucha or store bought?

Store-bought as the synergy brand fulfills a few criteria for me. It's $8 for 1.4 liters, and there's not a huge amount of sugar, 25 calories per cup, whereas most have twice that much. It tastes mildly bitter actually which is nice.
 

Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
55,329
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Jeddah
What's hinge?

lol.

What about this thing:

back-extension-exercise.jpg

When you add weight, do you keep the disk chest level, or above your crown?
I would have you start without bending, just hold the top position, do it for 30-60-90 sec.
If that's easy, then try it on a parallele bench like a glute-ham developer:
maxresdefault.jpg



As Mrb1p said, impossible to know much about your injury here, you should consult someone if you have pain, but if you're telling me that there is nothing there and the physio said your okay to workout, then go for it. Where those physios and doctors often fail though is by not telling people with back pain to strengthen their backs, they only talk about the core.
There is a bunch of exercises you can do to slowly strengthen the back.
 

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,329
20,272
Jeddah
The hip hinge is the position in which you put yourself anytime you do bent over work, which includes deadlifts, rows, good mornings, etc. Just google hip hinge and youll understand quick enough.

As for the hyperextension at 45°, I use those to warm up/stretch mostly, but I think it could be good for someone recovering from a lower back injury.

The problem is that we dont know where your injury stems from. Your body isnt a blank slate, it has imperfections and kinks that we cannot acount for. The problem could be from anywhere from your hips, to your ankles, to your posture, etc. Its tough to say. A reason why I put emphasis on unilateral work is that it allows you to train away your deficiencies, which almost always translates in a stronger and healthier body.

Having someone qualified assess your mobility and your deficiencies would be huge, obviously, but I understand this is not always possible.
He said he had a slipped disc, so we know what the issue was, unless he aggravated things over the years but it does not sound like it, and my guess is it came from his overweight and bad posture issues.
You are right though, impossible for us to really know from here and he should seek a well qualified professional.
Unilateral work is always good.
 

DAChampion

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May 28, 2011
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This looks fun:
elevated-feet-plank-e1341335428925.jpg


OK, enough posts for today.

He said he had a slipped disc, so we know what the issue was, unless he aggravated things over the years but it does not sound like it, and my guess is it came from his overweight and bad posture issues.
You are right though, impossible for us to really know from here and he should seek a well qualified professional.
Unilateral work is always good.
Bulging, not slipped !
 

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,329
20,272
Jeddah
I skipped breakfast this morning (a bit of intermittent fast) and had lunch around 1245. I went to an Indian restaurant and had some sort of chaat (potatoes, chick peas, cilantro, sauces) and a red lentil soup. Surprisingly, I was full from that relatively modest lunch.

I really love dessert and I crave sugar after meals. I decided to placate that by packing three clementines for after lunch. Clems have a "healthy" reputation but their benefits are arguably modest: Only 15% of the carbs are fiber, and their RDA% exceeds their Calorie% for vitamin C, B1, B3, B6, B9, calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, potassium, and copper. OK, maybe that's not bad actually. Anyway, the main advantage is that I had three of them and it only costs ~100 calories. So the ratio of satisfaction to sugar is higher than, say, a brownie (~400+ calories).

Interestingly, I forgot that I had the Clems and actually ate them an hour after then I could.

I discussed this diet with my therapist today. She's a little worried about me (I've got body image issues in case it's not obvious). She did say that she's curious how the decline in sugar consumption will affect my mood. As some of you may or may not know, there is evidence that excess sugar consumption, and/or deficient fat consumption, harms the brain, though the research is preliminary and it's hard to make precise conclusions.

I think you will be fine man, your body needs a bit of time to adapt. The difficult part is to keep fighting the cravings and to not go completely bonkers on cheat days or when you get off the diet.
If you are indeed significantly changing your food, going from Brownies to Clementines, then you will feel great man and you should feel this quite rapidly.
 

Mrb1p

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Yesterday i was doing pendlay rows with 315 and the gym employee (hes not a trainer screw that) told me i was going to injure myself and that i should use the rowing machine they have... so annoying. Its an absolute necessity that i find myself a new gym now. Cheap or not, i cant take this anymore.
 
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