Fire Hakstol

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Starat327

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Who knows what gm is out there but is it really a risk that a new gm would do any worse fielding a competitive NHL team as hextall has done so far? Hextall has had 4 full offseasons and barring a major drastic turnaround in the next 2 weeks, his team will have accomplished 1 playoff birth as the last seed in a league where over half of the teams make the playoffs with no real improvement record wise in those 4 years. Now that alone isn't an indictment against him... But if you aren't seeing an improvement in the standings, hopefully youre seeing a major youth infusion to the NHL roster and giving prospects NHL playing time to learn and grow. Every role that is currently filled with a useless vet whose play isnt helping the team now and who will never get any better in the future should have been replaced by a prospect in the beginning of this year at the absolute latest. They have several young players on the phantoms right now that at the absolute worst are equal to those crappy vets but they can actually get better from making mistakes. The team now still has many of the same weaknesses at the NHL level as the team did back in hextalls first season and much of that is his own doing at this point. His team has stagnated the last 2 years and the reason for that is largely his design. For every improvement made to the team by adding the young guys like TK, NP, and Provy to the roster, it has been negated by making brain dead decisions like keeping lehtera, Manning, weise, and flip on the roster. Every year that he has been gm he has aquired a "hard working vet" that has done way more harm to the team than good. Not only that but aquiring said ****ty vets have blocked prospects that are at the very least equal to those trash players now with potential to grow. And if he had kept only the contributing vets on the roster, while waiving the trash, there would not be one single complaint on here about the teams record because we would all be hopeful that the young guys are learning and continue improving. But by having these trash players playing significant NHL time he has delayed that learning season for several important prospects to our future by yet another year and at the rate he is "developing talent", girouxs prime will have been thoroughly wasted and that will be another piece we need to replace. Hextall has done a good job restocking the farm and getting out of cap hell but as far as putting together a competitive team at the NHL level that has the ability to grow together at once, he has failed so far. How many more seasons of mediocrity watching a full line of crappy players get playing time while our prospects rot in the AHL must we endure before saying enough? When you see other teams in this league turn over their roster and get back into contention over the same time period that hextall has had and in some cases bringing their teams out of worse situations than he had, I think it is valid to question whether he has the ability to ice a Stanley cup contending NHL team. Having a loaded pipeline is great but that alone doesn't win Stanley cups. As far as being the right gm to know what pieces he must add to put a team over the top, I can't say his evaluation of aquiring NHL talent has been even average. He has been one of the worst gms in the league at acquiring NHL talent. Other teams are probably laughing their ass off that their cap dumps/rejects are getting significant playing time in Philly. Still I'm not calling for his head and unlike hak, I won't be upset at all if he is retained to give him one final year for the team to show a real improvement and direction towards the future. But at the same time, I wont be upset at all if the teams collapse continues and they miss the playoffs that ownership decides that this season was unacceptable and cleans house firing coaching staff and gm. The net positive of getting rid of the coaching staff would be much greater than the loss of hextall. Since Mr Snider has passed on though, I highly doubt that will happen as the current owners likely only care about their profit and Flyers fans, for better or worse, have continued to give them plenty of that over hextalls tenure.

is there a tl;dr version?
 

BernieParent

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From day 1, Hextall said that this would be a long and painful process. He has been a very good GM for the phase of franchise competitiveness. He has filled the prospects cupboards to overflowing and removed many of the cap anchors that were drowning the Flyers. That was step 1.

The Flyers are now at the door of step 2, which is the integration of the top prospects into the NHL. So far, so so-so. Hextall has to carry some of the responsibility of where the team is at present. This off-season will be very telling in accelerating the process.

The good news is that, unless Hextall gets mindjacked by Holmgren, he will still have a boatload of assets to acquire the key supporting cast for phase 3, when the Flyers are looking to go deep in the playoffs.
 

MacDonald4MVP

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May 7, 2016
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Hexy has performed admirably in tanking part of rebuild.
However it does kinda feel like we are stuck in transition period for longer than necessary. Next year is last year of TK and Provy's ELCs and I hope his efforts can amount to more than another bubble team.
 

Rebels57

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Just because we don't know who would be a better GM than Hextall doesn't mean a better GM doesn't exist.

I'd like someone that is a combination of Hextall and Shero. Shero seems to value building through the draft but also isn't afraid to make a move to improve his team. Their prospect pipeline has steadily improved and yet he has still made trades to acquire Palmieri, Hall, Vatanen, Grabner, and Maroon.

Hextall has only made veteran sell-off off trades (Timonen, Coburn, Streit, Schenn) and trades to dump bad contracts.

He's done absolutely nothing, outside of drafting (which every team does), to improve the Flyers in 4 years. That's why 4 years later we are still a bubble team.
 

Curufinwe

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Feb 28, 2013
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Maybe David Poile ? I think getting a clear upgrade of a GM over Hextall would be pretty difficult. I think he does a fairly decent job overall but he lets his feelings get in the way a bit. Not being able to just cut and throw a player like he should so to speak (i.e. Lehtera/Weise and co.).

Poile could be better, he's also not available.

I'd much rather stick with Hextall despite his flaws than risk getting in a Bergevin type who makes horrible mistakes while trying to improve the team. How do you even enjoy hockey anymore as a Habs fan while Subban dominates in Nashville and old man Weber is having tendon surgery.
 
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Rebels57

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I could have sworn the Coburn trade improved the team starting the very next season.

Coburn - 223 games, 33 points, +12, 16:40 ATOI, -1.98% SAT Rel

Gudas - 202 games, 48 points, +3, 18:47 ATOI, +3.76% SAT Rel

Thats fair. I forgot about getting Gudas in that deal.
 

phil162888

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Jul 28, 2012
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Just because we don't know who would be a better GM than Hextall doesn't mean a better GM doesn't exist.

I'd like someone that is a combination of Hextall and Shero. Shero seems to value building through the draft but also isn't afraid to make a move to improve his team. Their prospect pipeline has steadily improved and yet he has still made trades to acquire Palmieri, Hall, Vatanen, Grabner, and Maroon.

Hextall has only made veteran sell-off off trades (Timonen, Coburn, Streit, Schenn) and trades to dump bad contracts.

He's done absolutely nothing, outside of drafting (which every team does), to improve the Flyers in 4 years. That's why 4 years later we are still a bubble team.

I think these are fair comments especially since some of his trades have been downright awful imo. His FA signings have been nothing special either. I like Hexy's demeanor, his focus on his plan, his dedication to make this team a SC champ but he has to prove he can pull the trigger at the right time in situations either firing your coach or making a significant trade or UFA signing. This team should be way better then it is with the amount of high end talent on the top 2 lines, someone's done a horrible job (I like to blame Hakstol) in filling out the bottom 6 forwards and the 3-6 dmen. Which should be the easiest part to do ie Vegas and the Devils as examples of that!
 
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Rebels57

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I think these are fair comments especially since some of his trades have been downright awful imo. His FA signings have been nothing special either. I like Hexy's demeanor, his focus on his plan, his dedication to make this team a SC champ but he has to prove he can pull the trigger at the right time in situations either firing your coach or making a significant trade or UFA signing. This team should be way better then it is with the amount of high end talent on the top 2 lines, someone's done a horrible job (I like to blame Hakstol) in filling out the bottom 6 forwards and the 3-6 dmen. Which should be the easiest part to do ie Vegas and the Devils as examples of that!

Current "Core"

Bold = added by Hextall

Giroux
Voracek
Couturier
Simmonds
Konecny
Patrick

Provorov

Gostisbehere

Provorov and Patrick fell into his lap after missing playoffs.

So far, his only savvy move that has improved the NHL roster has been the trade up for Konecny.

Remains to be seen what the rest of his draft picks will do for us, including Lindblom and Sanheim.
 

Stizzle

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Feb 3, 2012
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Current "Core"

Bold = added by Hextall

Giroux
Voracek
Couturier
Simmonds
Konecny
Patrick

Provorov

Gostisbehere

Provorov and Patrick fell into his lap after missing playoffs.

So far, his only savvy move that has improved the NHL roster has been the trade up for Konecny.

Remains to be seen what the rest of his draft picks will do for us, including Lindblom and Sanheim.

This is pretty short-sighted imo.
 

Rebels57

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This is pretty short-sighted imo.

I didn't say his draft picks won't improve this team, just that after 4 years, only 3 actually have and only 1 is a pick that you can actually pat him on the back for.
 

Magua

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Poile could be better, he's also not available.

I'd much rather stick with Hextall despite his flaws than risk getting in a Bergevin type who makes horrible mistakes while trying to improve the team. How do you even enjoy hockey anymore as a Habs fan while Subban dominates in Nashville and old man Weber is having tendon surgery.

I'm still not panicky about Hextall right now. Little less certain than the honeymoon phase a couple years ago but not panicky. On a macro level he still does a lot right with building a viable long-term contender, and for better or worse, he is not rash. But at a certain point -- a point we are nearing -- you need to clean up the micro shit if you're going to actually be a contender.

And who is the person firing and picking our new GM? Comcast suit, Dave Scott? Paul Holmgren? Hextall has a long leash, and I'm okay with that. God knows how much worse it could be. But better assessing NHL (depth) personnel, coaching decisions and evaluations.......I need to see improvements there to feel more at ease. At the same time, that's doable, if he can not be so stubborn and realize his own mistakes. Maybe. Hopefully. A few decisions this off-season, alluded to in last night's PGT, would give me more confidence.
 

JojoTheWhale

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I'm still not panicky about Hextall right now. Little less certain than the honeymoon phase a couple years ago but not panicky. On a macro level he still does a lot right with building a viable long-term contender, and for better or worse, he is not rash. But at a certain point -- a point we are nearing -- you need to clean up the micro **** if you're going to actually be a contender.

And who is the person firing and picking our new GM? Comcast suit, Dave Scott? Paul Holmgren? Hextall has a long leash, and I'm okay with that. God knows how much worse it could be. But better assessing NHL (depth) personnel, coaching decisions and evaluations.......I need to see improvements there to feel more at ease. At the same time, that's doable, if he can not be so stubborn and realize his own mistakes. Maybe. Hopefully. A few decisions this off-season, alluded to in last night's PGT, would give me more confidence.

I'm reasonably confident Dave Scott would be the one to make such a decision if it were eventually to be made. I would not have said that in January for what it's worth.

We're in a period where the positives still outweigh the negatives on Hextall. I do worry that, like with Hakstol, some of the weaknesses run perpendicular to the way they're building out, but the organizational talent level and asset portfolio is up to such a ridiculous degree that I don't see an argument to the contrary. He doesn't have to he a top 5 GM to win multiple Cups if they turn into the talent factory they're on the road to being.
 

Captain Dave Poulin

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Current "Core"

Bold = added by Hextall

Giroux
Voracek
Couturier
Simmonds
Konecny
Patrick

Provorov

Gostisbehere

Provorov and Patrick fell into his lap after missing playoffs.

So far, his only savvy move that has improved the NHL roster has been the trade up for Konecny.

Remains to be seen what the rest of his draft picks will do for us, including Lindblom and Sanheim.

Here's the thing, Reb. You are talking about how Hexy has had four years for this process, which is true - but he didn't grab all of these prospects and draft all this talent four years ago, right? So it's not like all of these players have been sitting on a shelf for four years wasting away. It has taken dummy too long to insert Sanheim into the lineup, obviously, but Travis was part of that first wave four years ago. Part of the wave from three years ago, Konecny and Provy, are up. I can't think of any of the others from that wave who should be here and aren't - even Myers is still percolating in his man strength and acclimating down in LV physically after a ton of injuries. My point is that if Hexy had pushed these more recent draft picks (from 2016-17) through he could have wrecked their development (even that of my boyfriend, who is impervious to wreckage).

Going out and trading for half-baked rentals was never going to put us over the top this year. So we would have had to make a big splash, and that would have meant dipping into the prospect fund. We have enough that he could have afforded it, but do we really want to cash in THIS year? Who is going to play in goal for us to make us a real contender - how do we attain that guy and what does he cost? In order for that move to make sense, we have to rebuild 2/3rds of the entire defense, which means more moves. And suddenly we have Paul Holmgren v2.0. It's an incredibly slippery slope and Thomas Vanek, Evander Kane and Jason Chimera aren't going to get us anywhere close - in order to do something this year, something substantial, we'd have to abandon the plan and go shopping in the Paul Mall. I have had enough of that half-assery to last a lifetime (though I appreciate Homer's efforts, it didn't work, and it certainly won't work now).

Our opinions don't usually diverge at all - and how could they when we share a mind? - but the biggest point of departure on this issue between us is the idea of sacrificing for this core to have a chance. You are upset because we are wasting their prime years without giving them a chance to lift the Cup, and I completely understand that. But G and Couts and Jake et al don't mean more to me than Peter Zezel and Scott Mellanby and Derrick Smith and Ilkka Sinisalo (RIP) et al, they don't mean more to me than Keith Primeau and Sami Kapanen and Simon Gagne, etc etc etc.

At some point, as an organization, we desperately needed to make this shift to a draft-centric approach - we waited too long, but we are finally on course. It's the only way - the only way - to build something sustainable in the cap era. Once you have the architecture in place, you can make short-term moves and "go for it" moves to put yourself over the top. There's no way we are at that point yet - we have the architecture in place, but the building isn't built. There are just too many moves we would need to make to turn us into a contender now, and that volume of change would entail us shifting what we are doing, and after 30+ years of waiting for us to take this approach, I'm not willing to sacrifice it so that G and Couts and Jake can see their window open a couple of years early.

TRUST THE PROCESS lolz
 

gertbfrobe16

Registered User
Feb 3, 2018
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i'm guessing with they way they are doing things that g and voro won't be here when they get close enough to sniff the cup. especially if haktool remains the coach the process must come to an end and results achieved for it to have been a good process. in the end we the fans suffer in agony as the office guys and coach play kick the can down the road offering nirvana at the end of the journey that we don't know when it will end amen.
 

Captain Dave Poulin

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i'm guessing with they way they are doing things that g and voro won't be here when they get close enough to sniff the cup. especially if haktool remains the coach the process must come to an end and results achieved for it to have been a good process. in the end we the fans suffer in agony as the office guys and coach play kick the can down the road offering nirvana at the end of the journey that we don't know when it will end amen.

That's true, but that time isn't NOW - that's what I am saying. The process isn't finished yet and there's nothing we can do (within reason, that will put us over the top) to make it go faster. Our top guys are playing out of their skulls, which is awesome, but it doesn't mean that the whole timeline has shifted forward for us to accomodate that surge. I would be OK with us doing that if it had a chance of working, but it doesn't. We'd be taking a punt on a 5% (random number pulled from my butt) chance for glory, when we could wait another 2-3 years and have a 20% (also from my butt) chance for glory year after year after year. And who is going to coach these guys we acquire? Because Hexy isn't firing this doofus immediately, and there's no way this doofus is taking us anywhere.

And so we get back to the crux of the problem, and the point of this thread.

FIRE HAKSTOK
 

gertbfrobe16

Registered User
Feb 3, 2018
5,552
7,560
That's true, but that time isn't NOW - that's what I am saying. The process isn't finished yet and there's nothing we can do (within reason, that will put us over the top) to make it go faster. Our top guys are playing out of their skulls, which is awesome, but it doesn't mean that the whole timeline has shifted forward for us to accomodate that surge. I would be OK with us doing that if it had a chance of working, but it doesn't. We'd be taking a punt on a 5% (random number pulled from my butt) chance for glory, when we could wait another 2-3 years and have a 20% (also from my butt) chance for glory year after year after year. And who is going to coach these guys we acquire? Because Hexy isn't firing this doofus immediately, and there's no way this doofus is taking us anywhere.

And so we get back to the crux of the problem, and the point of this thread.

FIRE HAKSTOK
there is one thing they can do to help the process along and bump up the goal and that was the premise of this thread and my post lol
 

Rebels57

Former Flyers fan
Sponsor
Sep 28, 2014
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Here's the thing, Reb. You are talking about how Hexy has had four years for this process, which is true - but he didn't grab all of these prospects and draft all this talent four years ago, right? So it's not like all of these players have been sitting on a shelf for four years wasting away. It has taken dummy too long to insert Sanheim into the lineup, obviously, but Travis was part of that first wave four years ago. Part of the wave from three years ago, Konecny and Provy, are up. I can't think of any of the others from that wave who should be here and aren't - even Myers is still percolating in his man strength and acclimating down in LV physically after a ton of injuries. My point is that if Hexy had pushed these more recent draft picks (from 2016-17) through he could have wrecked their development (even that of my boyfriend, who is impervious to wreckage).

Going out and trading for half-baked rentals was never going to put us over the top this year. So we would have had to make a big splash, and that would have meant dipping into the prospect fund. We have enough that he could have afforded it, but do we really want to cash in THIS year? Who is going to play in goal for us to make us a real contender - how do we attain that guy and what does he cost? In order for that move to make sense, we have to rebuild 2/3rds of the entire defense, which means more moves. And suddenly we have Paul Holmgren v2.0. It's an incredibly slippery slope and Thomas Vanek, Evander Kane and Jason Chimera aren't going to get us anywhere close - in order to do something this year, something substantial, we'd have to abandon the plan and go shopping in the Paul Mall. I have had enough of that half-assery to last a lifetime (though I appreciate Homer's efforts, it didn't work, and it certainly won't work now).

Our opinions don't usually diverge at all - and how could they when we share a mind? - but the biggest point of departure on this issue between us is the idea of sacrificing for this core to have a chance. You are upset because we are wasting their prime years without giving them a chance to lift the Cup, and I completely understand that. But G and Couts and Jake et al don't mean more to me than Peter Zezel and Scott Mellanby and Derrick Smith and Ilkka Sinisalo (RIP) et al, they don't mean more to me than Keith Primeau and Sami Kapanen and Simon Gagne, etc etc etc.

At some point, as an organization, we desperately needed to make this shift to a draft-centric approach - we waited too long, but we are finally on course. It's the only way - the only way - to build something sustainable in the cap era. Once you have the architecture in place, you can make short-term moves and "go for it" moves to put yourself over the top. There's no way we are at that point yet - we have the architecture in place, but the building isn't built. There are just too many moves we would need to make to turn us into a contender now, and that volume of change would entail us shifting what we are doing, and after 30+ years of waiting for us to take this approach, I'm not willing to sacrifice it so that G and Couts and Jake can see their window open a couple of years early.

TRUST THE PROCESS lolz

I read all of this and im honored that my overly emotional posts recently would even illicit a response of this magnitude. Im not sober enough to reply in detail, but I still do appreciate it. It feels like a hug from a family member at the funeral of our season.
 
Last edited:

Captain Dave Poulin

Imaginary Cat
Apr 30, 2015
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Tokyo, JP
I read all of this and im honored that my overly emotional posts recently would even elicit a response of this magnitude. Im not sober enough to reply in detail, but I still do appreciate it. It feels like a hug from a family member at the funeral of our season.

:thumbu:

xRHgYTp.gif
 

BillDineen

Former Flyer / Extinct Dinosaur Advisor
Aug 9, 2009
9,375
8,101
Reality is that this summer they will have a boat load of cap space to upgrade the roster. Hextall also has to make a decision on Simmonds.

Players like Weise and Lehtera should be bought out at least (they should be in the AHL right now). If Hextall keeps his coach, he knows that he is going to play whatever vets are on the team whether NHL caliber or not. He can replace the trash with NHL talent. Hopefully the evaluation on players is good.

I have liked Hextall's long term, building through the draft approach. I don't mind waiting as long as there is a payoff ahead. I do not give him credit for later round picks, but do for trading to get TK and Frost.

I really dislike this slow cooking of the prospects though. Every other team in the NHL would have had Morin up if he was their prospect. I am 100% convinced of that. Being scared to have too young of a d, as he said in November is not a good thing.

This summer will reveal a lot. If we are watching the same garbage players next year, that is on Hextall.
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
78,839
86,198
Nova Scotia
Here's the thing, Reb. You are talking about how Hexy has had four years for this process, which is true - but he didn't grab all of these prospects and draft all this talent four years ago, right? So it's not like all of these players have been sitting on a shelf for four years wasting away. It has taken dummy too long to insert Sanheim into the lineup, obviously, but Travis was part of that first wave four years ago. Part of the wave from three years ago, Konecny and Provy, are up. I can't think of any of the others from that wave who should be here and aren't - even Myers is still percolating in his man strength and acclimating down in LV physically after a ton of injuries. My point is that if Hexy had pushed these more recent draft picks (from 2016-17) through he could have wrecked their development (even that of my boyfriend, who is impervious to wreckage).

Going out and trading for half-baked rentals was never going to put us over the top this year. So we would have had to make a big splash, and that would have meant dipping into the prospect fund. We have enough that he could have afforded it, but do we really want to cash in THIS year? Who is going to play in goal for us to make us a real contender - how do we attain that guy and what does he cost? In order for that move to make sense, we have to rebuild 2/3rds of the entire defense, which means more moves. And suddenly we have Paul Holmgren v2.0. It's an incredibly slippery slope and Thomas Vanek, Evander Kane and Jason Chimera aren't going to get us anywhere close - in order to do something this year, something substantial, we'd have to abandon the plan and go shopping in the Paul Mall. I have had enough of that half-assery to last a lifetime (though I appreciate Homer's efforts, it didn't work, and it certainly won't work now).

Our opinions don't usually diverge at all - and how could they when we share a mind? - but the biggest point of departure on this issue between us is the idea of sacrificing for this core to have a chance. You are upset because we are wasting their prime years without giving them a chance to lift the Cup, and I completely understand that. But G and Couts and Jake et al don't mean more to me than Peter Zezel and Scott Mellanby and Derrick Smith and Ilkka Sinisalo (RIP) et al, they don't mean more to me than Keith Primeau and Sami Kapanen and Simon Gagne, etc etc etc.

At some point, as an organization, we desperately needed to make this shift to a draft-centric approach - we waited too long, but we are finally on course. It's the only way - the only way - to build something sustainable in the cap era. Once you have the architecture in place, you can make short-term moves and "go for it" moves to put yourself over the top. There's no way we are at that point yet - we have the architecture in place, but the building isn't built. There are just too many moves we would need to make to turn us into a contender now, and that volume of change would entail us shifting what we are doing, and after 30+ years of waiting for us to take this approach, I'm not willing to sacrifice it so that G and Couts and Jake can see their window open a couple of years early.

TRUST THE PROCESS lolz
This might be your best post ever that is on the serious side and this us exactly how I feel. Well done Cap!

G and Couts still have 4 years years left on their deals. Jake has 6. We have plenty of years for them to be big contributors but us winning cup will be on the backs of our younger core, with those 3 being the vets to help.

Personally, I would love to see us trade Simmonds for a 1st and a near NHL ready prospect. Then draft a D and a F with 2 first rounders and then try and add an NHL player or 2 using the other picks. Essentially replace Simmonds with a 3rd line ES point getter.
 

kelmitchell

Registered User
Jun 11, 2013
6,603
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Newark Delaware
As im lying in bed after just waking up from another slumber and getting ready to devour my wifes amazing breakfast she cooked me, i cant help but feel the need to share my dream.

So last night, i had dreamed that i was invited to this big get together (sort of like sth meeting but you actually meet the entire team and staff personally) and can get pictures, autographs, or just shoot the shit, well when it came time to meet hextall, i had clubbed him over the head with some object.

Then all of a sudden i appeared in an all black robe, looking like the undertakers druids, and then began doing the chucky voodoo chant to switch bodies and after the transformation was comeplete i had told haktard i wanted certain players to play certain minutes, and for him to play certain players over the vet, this stupid "sum bitch" told me no, so not only did i curb stomp that dude into oblivion, i also sold him to a hatian who was willing to sacrafice him like a baby goat.

Anyways, after we were manhandled out of the playoffs i began making moves and trades, i had traded weise to Arizona for a 4th (way to much value, should have gotten a used piece of toilet paper)

I traded simmer for 2 first round picks (1 in the 2018 draft ended up the #10 pick) and a 3rd in the 2018 draft

We had a mutual buyout with lehtera (somehow where it didnt count against the cap)

I let manning, filp, read, and mrazek walk.

I signed some solid depth players, and i had then found my old self walking into a pizza place (fat bastard) and i had performed the voodoo ritual again, and everyone was happy with all that "hextall" had done.

Then i woke up a happy man, my wife brought me breakfast in bed, which was cheesey eggs, and bacon wrapped in a lightly syrup(ed)/ lightly toasted tortilla.....lets make the day great boys lol
 
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