Fan 590's Howard Berger: Contentious debate about draft

[shakes]

How much $$$$ they make in the league by themselves????

Probably around the same.. maybe more now they dont have to share with anyone.

 

[txpd]

The Caps are a fat cat franchise. You're not exactly small market when your owner is Ted Leonsis. You're not small market when your team has paid out over $50 in salary in each of the past three seasons and your team is not small market when you shell out $77 million on one player. For all of the Leafs' spending the past few years, I'm not sure that their free agent acquisitions even came close to $77 million. So please spare me the nonsense about Washington being a poor small market team who deserves another #1 pick more than a playoff team.

Good Grief!! The Caps had Jagr for 3 seasons @ $11m per season. Are you telling me that TO has not had $11m in free agent salary?? First of all, lets be clear, Jagr was not a free agent. That said. How much did Belfour make last season? I could be wrong, but I bet that Belfour and Klee add up to Jagr's $11m. If not, I am damn sure that salary dump trade Owen Nolan and Belfour cost well more than did Jagr.

In this post you actually mention the past 3 seasons. May I remind you that the Caps immediately drop to 15th or lower in payroll when you take Jagr off the payroll.
By the way....he is gone.

Next, who said the Caps were a poor small market team? they are not. they are, however, a middle of the pack payroll team because that $50m + payroll cost the Caps about $20m a year in loses.

Next, the Caps were the 2nd worst team in the NHL last season and since they have only 4 NHL players they are certainly a team that needs high draft choices.
I never said that they deserved the #1 pick. they do deserve a top pick. teams like toronto have no deserves of a top draft choice. period.

 

[MacDaddy TLC*]

The difference between the Capitals and the Leafs is the Leafs could afford to pay the salaries, the Caps can't. The reason the league is in this mess it teams spending what they don't have. The Leafs have!

 

[HSHS]

The Caps are a fat cat franchise. You're not exactly small market when your owner is Ted Leonsis. You're not small market when your team has paid out over $50 in salary in each of the past three seasons and your team is not small market when you shell out $77 million on one player. For all of the Leafs' spending the past few years, I'm not sure that their free agent acquisitions even came close to $77 million. So please spare me the nonsense about Washington being a poor small market team who deserves another #1 pick more than a playoff team.

-50M salary one 30M revenue... revenue determines the fortune 500, not expenditures.

-They make one decision and you label them... I am sorry but one data point isn't a trend.

-Where is this $77M... I'd love to see that. Lang: $5M x 4 yrs = $77M...??? Jagr was a trade, not a UFA acquisition. His contract, if that is what you speak of, was 7yrs x 11M = $77M.

-As I mentioned earlier, F the number 1 pick.

 

[HSHS]

The same as all the others would make without the Toronto Maple Leafs. The league should be bending over backwards to make the Leafs happy after screwing them out of $100 million because Peter Karmanos is an idiot, because the St louis Blues can't manage a team, because the Detroit Red Wings can't even make money, and because Gary Bettman and some greedy owners couldn't help themselves when expansion dollars were flashed in front of their eyes (looking at you Bruce Mcnall and the 50 million cheque from the ducks) !

I agree 100%... except for the $100M figure. That's not their earnings after taxes...

 

[MacDaddy TLC*]

EDIT:
An example is the Toronto Maple Leafs. According to Forbes.com (2003), the Leafs reported the following revenues during the 2002-2003 season:

• Operating revenues of $13.8 million US
• Ticket revenue of $49 million US
• Other revenues of $42.2 million US
• Total revenues of $105 million US

 

[HSHS]

Probably around the same.. maybe more now they dont have to share with anyone.

I didn't know playing with yourself was a profitable business in Canada... I guess I'll be moving.

 

[EroCaps]

The difference between the Capitals and the Leafs is the Leafs could afford to pay the salaries, the Caps can't. The reason the league is in this mess it teams spending what they don't have. The Leafs have!

= : We want Crosby.

 

[Jester]

If that is your belief than the big teams deserve ZERO chance. Drafts are about immediate results... but we have none. So big teams would deserve no immediate compensation for the upcoming CBA. They will get it, just like every other NA league, through the you suck => you get a high pick next year routine, we call the draft.

"Drafts are about immediate results..."

that is perhaps the stupidest thing i've ever read. how many draft picks play in the NHL the next year? VERY VERY small percentage. I would be shocked if the average is 20% of the first round plays the next year.

the draft is ALL about future results.

Crosby ain't carrying any team he's on to the playoffs without serious help, let alone to a cup in his first season. just won't happen. that is not "immediate" results.

if someone can come up with a method that actually relates teams from pre-lockout to post-lockout accounting for the fact that something like 50% of the league is going have contractual expiration over the time between NHL games, i'm all ears. i just don't think you can do it.

One method that MAY be fair would be to take the league and divide it into thirds, with each third recieving the same weight in the lottery. however, how do you weight someone like Washington? who knows how good Ovechkin would have been this year... how about Atlanta, they were primed with the potential of being a force last year if their young players really came together?

it really isn't so easy to do this... especially with the player movement. players are another year older. all sorts of things. teams fall apart quickly, happens every year.

 

[HSHS]

The difference between the Capitals and the Leafs is the Leafs could afford to pay the salaries, the Caps can't. The reason the league is in this mess it teams spending what they don't have. The Leafs have!

agreed... partially.

The problem was arbitration tying salaries, so one clubs decisions, such as the TML who could afford it, affect 29 others... the problem was clubs didn't walk away from the awards... the problem was that the clubs could only walk away from a limited amount of them... the problem was that there is no way to compensate teams who walk away from awards (ie comp draft picks)... problem was 100-110% qualifying offers.

 

[HSHS]

EDIT:
An example is the Toronto Maple Leafs. According to Forbes.com (2003), the Leafs reported the following revenues during the 2002-2003 season:

• Operating revenues of $13.8 million US
• Ticket revenue of $49 million US
• Other revenues of $42.2 million US
• Total revenues of $105 million US

So you guys bring in ~3.5x what the Caps do... so now you sound like McDonalds calling Whataburger a "fat cat".... What's Whataburger????? My point exactly.

 

[MacDaddy TLC*]

agreed... partially.

The problem was arbitration tying salaries, so one clubs decisions, such as the TML who could afford it, affect 29 others... the problem was clubs didn't walk away from the awards... the problem was that the clubs could only walk away from a limited amount of them... the problem was that there is no way to compensate teams who walk away from awards (ie comp draft picks)... problem was 100-110% qualifying offers.

Completely agree. There were a lot of problems, but the teams that played by the rules and ran their businesses in efficient ways, shouldn't be punished for it. Toronto did not do anything they couldn't afford.

 

[HSHS]

"Drafts are about immediate results..."

that is perhaps the stupidest thing i've ever read. how many draft picks play in the NHL the next year? VERY VERY small percentage. I would be shocked if the average is 20% of the first round plays the next year.

the draft is ALL about future results.

That's cause you either need to learn to read, or I need to learn to get my point across better.... probably the latter.

What I meantwas, and if you reread it in this light, is drafts (in all sports), is about the immediate results you just HAD... ie you pick where you finished the previous year.

My point is we don't look ahead to NFL teams and say "Hey, this is what your team will look like next year, you get pick #4 even though you finished 10-6 and won your division"

So, if you believe drafts are about the past and not the future, you need to look BACK, not forward when deciding the order.

though you may disagree and I respect that, I hope it crystal to you now.

 

[HSHS]

"

if someone can come up with a method that actually relates teams from pre-lockout to post-lockout accounting for the fact that something like 50% of the league is going have contractual expiration over the time between NHL games, i'm all ears. i just don't think you can do it.

One method that MAY be fair would be to take the league and divide it into thirds, with each third recieving the same weight in the lottery. however, how do you weight someone like Washington? who knows how good Ovechkin would have been this year... how about Atlanta, they were primed with the potential of being a force last year if their young players really came together?

it really isn't so easy to do this... especially with the player movement. players are another year older. all sorts of things. teams fall apart quickly, happens every year.

I agree 100%%%%%%%

 

[NYIsles1*]

Stephen, how exactly would it be a disaster for Crosby to end up in NY? Or LA? Or even Chicago? To have Crosby maximize league-wide interest, he needs to be somewhere visible.

And in the Yankees market he would be completely invisible. Jagr, Lindros, Leetch, Richter, Kovalev, Messier all played in obscurity in Manhattan and did nothing for hockey or the league in New York.

Crosby cannot be in baseball's largest market.

 

[FangFingers]

im all for a random draft order.

If Crosby ends up in toronto or New York, so be it. As long as the league doesnt rig it.

 

[HSHS]

Completely agree. There were a lot of problems, but the teams that played by the rules and ran their businesses in efficient ways, shouldn't be punished for it. Toronto did not do anything they couldn't afford.

I agree... no one is punishing Toronto... no one is taking draft picks away from you.

I'm not sure if you have read what I've been saying, but I think everyone should have a shot, just can't be equal. I guess you can call that harm. But in truth, we both KNOW 100% that Toronto would have not finished in the bottom 5 if there was a year. So in a way, you are actually benefiting.

They took hockey away from us all and I would like to think that this hot topic doesn't degenerate to fans against fans due to the built up anger from the lockout.

 

[HSHS]

I guess we can stop the debate... if only we had betman here to stop us.

 

[NYIsles1*]

im all for a random draft order.

If Crosby ends up in toronto or New York, so be it. As long as the league doesnt rig it.

If the league were to rig anything it would be to keep Crosby away from the Yankees media market. He would never get a backpage in New York with any of the three teams because the major journalists are not interested in hockey players.

 

[Icey]

Yeah, I'm aware.

The odds that good teams from last year would all of the sudden tank aren't likely. .

Carolina?

Anaheim?

Went to the finals one season and failed to make it the next. Sounds like tanking to me.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

If the league were to rig anything it would be to keep Crosby away from the Yankees media market. He would never get a backpage in New York with any of the three teams because the major journalists are not interested in hockey players.

Do you have those comments set on your clipboard so instead of re-typing them every time you can just cut & paste.

 

[EroCaps]

All financial arguments are moot.

The draft was put into place to give the game parity at game level.

The last time hockey games played is the cloesest indicator. If it's not close enough for some, then have multiple tiered lotteries.

To give a playoff team or deny a rebuilding team a high pick totally arbitrarily is a bully move and the last thing the league needs.

 

[salzy]

On the Fan 590 just now, Howard Berger reported that the GMs had just wrapped up a meeting at about 2pm EST, and that the debate over how to conduct the draft was both "lively" and "contentious." He said this was highlighted by John Ferguson declaring outright that he firmly believes that the Leafs and other top teams deserve a fully equal chance at drafting Crosby.

LMAO! John Ferguson? Are there 5 GMs in the league who have less pull than he does? Pipe down rookie!

 

[EroCaps]

LMAO! John Ferguson? Are there 5 GMs in the league who have less pull than he does? Pipe down rookie!

According to TSN, Bettman says the draft will put emphasis on teams having missed the playoffs over the past few years, but that every team will have a shot at #1.

 

[Kritter471]

Nice! If TSN is to be trusted, this means the Stars will have "emphasis" (missed the playoffs in 2001-2002).