Fan 590's Howard Berger: Contentious debate about draft

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HSHS

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Apr 5, 2005
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Jester said:
it won't be immediate, the big boys will have a year or two of continued dominance (though Tampa will still be just as good) before they start to fail because they have depleted farm systems and due to the hefty contracts they are still carrying, an inability to fill in the gaps in the short term.
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If that is your belief than the big teams deserve ZERO chance. Drafts are about immediate results... but we have none. So big teams would deserve no immediate compensation for the upcoming CBA. They will get it, just like every other NA league, through the you suck => you get a high pick next year routine, we call the draft.
 

Mess

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Munchausen said:
I could see an argument for giving a shot to all 30 teams, although it isn't my prefered scenario, but I have a hard time understanding why the Leafs' and the Penguins' of this league should have an equal chance at the #1 pick. If we go for the legit shot for all 30 teams option, it should be heavily weighted in favor of bottom teams.

Define a Bottom team then ..

We are going to have a Hard Cap and possibly profit Sharing and hundreds of UFA as some of those top teams from years ago will hardly have any players under contract ..

Boston won their Division and let half their team walk via UFA .. The Leafs will have 8 players under contract when the next season begins ..

A weak team from a couple years ago lets say like Washington could get Crosby, and then along with Ovechkin, and a very low current Salary base and tons of Hard Cap room currently could go on an UFA spending spree bringing in Pronger, Kariya, Palffy etc and the win the cup in the same year that they just where ruled a bottom team ..

How fair would that be ??

These owners have billions remember .. They could easily change their teams in a split second and invest a cool $ 20 mil in it .. .Playoff gate receipts and even filling the building to the rafters each night with a top team and young superstars could return their investment in NO time ..

All teams have a to play by the same Cap figure and what used to be the Strong teams Colorado, Detroit, Philly and Toronto are already dangerously close to the Hard Cap figure and will have to fill out their rosters with AHL and prospect players even with only a few players under contract .. They can not go on these free spending spree's and so now the Small market low Salary teams that have the inexpensive talent and drafted early for years to get it suddenly hast he biggest advantage at the entry draft and UFA ... Doesn't seem fair either does it ??
 

PeterSidorkiewicz

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Can't they find middle ground in this. If some teams at the bottom want it heavily weighted and teams at the top want an equal shot all around shouldn't they meet it in the middle? As an Ottawa fan I of course wouldnt mind equal all around, but I honestly don't think that is really fair to the teams who have struggled recently. Although Ottawa did get screwed over as an expansion team cause its a lot easier now to select better players in the expansion draft then it was when they entered. But why don't they take the past 4 seasons or whatever and weigh them, but weight them NOT as much. I know its all mathematics doing this so make it weighted for the worse teams the past 4 years but not by THAT much. So perhaps there is a decent shot of a middle ground team landing a #1, not excellent but a slight chance.
 

HSHS

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Jaded-Fan said:
The Caps, even if they use 2003-4 standings, same draft system, would have under a 15% chance at Crosby. People forget that they had a fair chance, not a good chance, at AO and lucked out. It would take some mean luck indeed for lightening to strike twice. If it happened? :dunno: . . . So what, how is that worse than Tampa Bay or Toronto ending up with him. At least the Caps legitimately suck.

I know there was an eclipse today, but I think hell just freakin' froze over as a Pens fan just defended the Caps. :confused:
 

hockeytown9321

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txpd said:
\ Does one count as trying to buy a championship when the Wings had...lets see...Hasek, Cujo, Schneider, Hatcher, Hull, Whitney, etc. All but two of which made more than Lang.

\

Hasek and Scneider were not free agents.
 

Icey

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Jan 23, 2005
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Master Shake said:
Yep itll make the NHL look even more of a joke if Crosby ends up with a good team.

Does anyone here actually think that Washington, Pittsburgh, Chicago will be better then Detroit, the AVs, Flyers or Leafs? Only a fool would think so.

Wait I thought with the new CBA it was going to even the playing field. Give all 30 teams the same chance of making it to the Stanley Cup finals. So if all 30 teams are going to be on even playing field and Pittsburgh has the same shot as Detoit, then shouldn't Detroit get the same shot at Crosby as Pittsburgh?
 

bennysflyers16

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Jan 26, 2004
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Take the 30 teams, give the worst team from last year 30 balls, and give the best team 1 ball, and be done with it. As a Flyer fan, it is not fair for us to get Crosby, but because of no season, it is impossible to predict what would of happend if there was a season. Maybe a big team could have been ravished with injuries and finished out of the playoffs, thus earning them a higher draft spot.
 

Hoss

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This mess was caused by out of control spending, so why not weigh the lottery based on player costs averaged over 4 years? I'm not a fan of the Oilers or the Rangers but I'd favor the Oilers for thier fiscal responsibility.
 

bennysflyers16

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Icey said:
Wait I thought with the new CBA it was going to even the playing field. Give all 30 teams the same chance of making it to the Stanley Cup finals. So if all 30 teams are going to be on even playing field and Pittsburgh has the same shot as Detoit, then shouldn't Detroit get the same shot at Crosby as Pittsburgh?

Best post i have read in a long time !
 

wazee

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JohnGalt said:
They should not have a draft without a season to base the order on. But they probably will. Gretzky, the greatest player in NHL history was not drafted into the NHL What a joke that is. If Crosby is anything close to what he is reported to be then it'll be a real shame if he doesn't go to a bottom-feeder.
IIRC (which I do not always), the reason that Gretzky was not drafted by the NHL because he signed with the WHA at the age of 18 and the NHL draft age at the time was either 19 or 20. So it was no kind of joke. It wasn't like all the NHL scouts were blind and all the NHL GMs were stupid. Gretzky didn't sit up in the stands for 2 days waiting for his name to be called. He was already collecting a big paycheck for playing hockey before he was old enough to be eligible for the NHL draft.
 

Isles72

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I vote for an even chance for all 30 teams .Fla,Atl,Pit,Cls,Nash etc..have already been rewarded for futility during the last 3-4 seasons with an array of tremendous building blocks .

I doubt it will happen this way though
 

John Flyers Fan

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The ideal scenario would be to not hold a draft and then have one mega draft after the next season. Seeing how that has no chance, the fairest way to have the draft would be a complete random lottery.

All 30 teams have an equal shot at the #1 pick and also the 30th pick. In order to balance that out use a snake style draft.

Teams that sucked in 2003-04 and previous years have already been awarded compensation for how bad they are. There is no way to accurately predict what the standings would have been like last year, too many factors (massive free agency, injuries etc.).

After one year off and chances are a radical new CBA that will force massive changes, a complete lottery would also help build some excitement and some interest in the NHL again.

==================================================

If they do decide to use a weaighted lottery based on last year, or the last three/four seasons the Stanley Cup winers from those seasons should be slotted into the last 1-4 slots depending upon how many seasons are used.
 

Morbo

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Jan 14, 2003
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txpd said:
what does one have to do with the other?

I just explained it. You HAVE ALREADY BEEN REWARDED FOR SUCKING. You don't deserve another #1 pick "just because".

Capfan's complaints ring particularly hollow. Don't blame other fans because your team briefly tried to act like a rich team and failed at it. That is nobody's fault but your own managment's.

Face it, you're no better than the people you deride in this thread. Any system is great, as long as the Caps get Crosby...

atlanta has kovulchuk and heatley. are you saying they only deserved one of them?

sorry, your logic doesnt work.

Maybe you could tell me when a lockout and salary cap happened in the past, and then your analogies might hold water.

Your logic isn't even logic. If we had played a season this year and the Caps finished last, then fine, they get Crosby. But that didn't happen.
 

wazee

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Icey said:
Wait I thought with the new CBA it was going to even the playing field. Give all 30 teams the same chance of making it to the Stanley Cup finals. So if all 30 teams are going to be on even playing field and Pittsburgh has the same shot as Detoit, then shouldn't Detroit get the same shot at Crosby as Pittsburgh?
Nope. The new CBA is only going to level the financial playing field...and not completely level at that. The draft is meant to give teams on the bottom of the built-win-rebuild cycle a better chance at the talent that will move them along in that cycle. If/when Detroit enters the rebuild cycle, they will deserve a shot at the top pick. Same goes for the Leafs, Avs, and others that have been on top. To get the top pick in the draft, you have to do your time at the bottom. I don't see this changing in the new CBA...
 

Slats432

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Jester said:
i'm fine with bleeding heart stuff from Oiler fans... but Ranger fans... please. when you are leading the league in spending it's your own fault, you deserve nothing from no one. especially when salary escalation was the staple export out of MSG over the past 10 years.
If the Oiler fans are supporting the worst teams like Pittsburgh and Washington having better chance at first pick than the Oilers OR Flyers, then what is your contention with them.

The difference between the two is that one wants what is best for the league, and one wants what is best for their team.(Don't worry, it is human nature.)
 

Master Shake*

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Icey said:
Wait I thought with the new CBA it was going to even the playing field. Give all 30 teams the same chance of making it to the Stanley Cup finals. So if all 30 teams are going to be on even playing field and Pittsburgh has the same shot as Detoit, then shouldn't Detroit get the same shot at Crosby as Pittsburgh?

We have yet to even have that CBA much less play under it.
 

CREW99AW

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Mar 12, 2002
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fifty_in39 said:
There is no alternative, Sidney Crosby MUST go to the NY Rangers. It's the only way NHL hockey will get back to the front burner of North American sports.


Is that you Larry Brooks?

if the rangers win the Crosby lottery,I'll congratulate nyr fans,but no way should the league just give the #1 overall to the rangers :shakehead what next? giving them a pass into the playoffs because it's the only way NHL hockey will get back to the front burner of North American sports?

they finished out of the playoffs for 7 straight yrs,should have a pretty big pool of bluechip prospects and young talent to package in a trade for #1 overall.
 

txpd

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Hab-a-maniac said:
Well the thing about that is, the Caps getting both Ovechkin and then Crosby for one season of mediocrity is a bit unfair and would be quite a lucky break for them. It would be like the Penguins drafting Lemieux, then a lockout year comes and they automatically get to choose Wendel Clark before the next season. Sure, they ended up picking 2nd but I'd have taken Wendel over Craig Simpson any day. It just would seem unfair to teams who've sucked for a lot longer. Besides, even if you fall short of Crosby why be upset? You got Ovechkin and several great prospects all around anyway.

there are two points to be made.

1. the caps have missed the playoffs two of the last three seasons and went to rebuild after being in last place when they started trading off contracts. so they sucked fair and square. its not so much about getting crosby as it is about them getting a top 5 pick that they deserve. if you set up this draft so that cup contenders can get a top pick, that means a lottery team can end up with a bottom 5 pick. that would be wrong. its not about crosby.

2. its about toronto and detroit and colorado NOT getting a shot at crosby. they DON'T deserve it. They have bought the top players in the game over the last ten years and have been contenders as a result. they do not deserve a top 5 draft choice.
 

Slats432

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John Flyers Fan said:
The ideal scenario would be to not hold a draft and then have one mega draft after the next season. Seeing how that has no chance, the fairest way to have the draft would be a complete random lottery.

All 30 teams have an equal shot at the #1 pick and also the 30th pick. In order to balance that out use a snake style draft.

Teams that sucked in 2003-04 and previous years have already been awarded compensation for how bad they are. There is no way to accurately predict what the standings would have been like last year, too many factors (massive free agency, injuries etc.).

After one year off and chances are a radical new CBA that will force massive changes, a complete lottery would also help build some excitement and some interest in the NHL again.

==================================================

If they do decide to use a weaighted lottery based on last year, or the last three/four seasons the Stanley Cup winers from those seasons should be slotted into the last 1-4 slots depending upon how many seasons are used.

John, I disagree, if the teams that have some of the best talent in the league and are saying that the league is going to start with a whole new playing field then a full dispersal draft of all the players in the NHL is in order.

Why should Tampa Bay have Lecavalier, Richards, Kubina etc etc and get Crosby ahead of Malone, Fata, Tarnstrom?

Even if the advantages are not drastic, there has to be some.
 

MLH

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Icey said:
Wait I thought with the new CBA it was going to even the playing field. Give all 30 teams the same chance of making it to the Stanley Cup finals. So if all 30 teams are going to be on even playing field and Pittsburgh has the same shot as Detoit, then shouldn't Detroit get the same shot at Crosby as Pittsburgh?

So why does the NFL, a system that is the closest thing professional sports will see to an even playing field, even order their drafts. Why don't they just pick randomly every year?

It's ridiculous to think every team should have an even shot. However, it's a tricky situation because, as the successful team's fans have so eloquently noted, anything could have happened this year.

A creative solution has to be reached that gives teams that have been struggling an advantage (because they would have most likely had the most balls anyway) while not eliminating any teams from contention, merely making them a long shot.

I think you should add three years worth of points, divide them by a number to put it to scale, and then add bonus points to make up for playoff appearances. You can weight last years standings more if you'd like, the more creative the better.

Bottom line is giving all teams an equal shot is ludicrous.
 

Kritter471

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Someone asked, so I ran an excel spreadsheet.

Should the draft be a weighted lottery based on record over the past 4 years (since MIN and CBJ came into the league), this is the ranking they would use. Notice the whre the Caps fit into all of this....

TEAM PTS
1.) CBJ 259
2.) ATL 266
3.) PIT 288
4.) FLA 296
5.) NYR 299
6.) CHI 305
7.) PHX 307
8.) NSH 314
9.) CAR 316
10.) MIN 319
11.) CAL 321
12.) NYI 322
13.) MTL 327
14.) TB 327
15.) ANA 330
16.) WAS 332
17.) BUF 337
18.) LA 346
19.) EDM 366
20.) SJ 371
21.) BOS 380
22.) VAN 389
23.) TOR 391
24.) STL 391
25.) DAL 404
26.) PHI 405
27.) NJ 414
28.) OTT 418
29.) COL 422
30.) DET 446

If you only use the last three seasons, the ranking changes to such. If you want the point totals, let me know.

TEAM
1.) CBJ
2.) PIT
3.) ATL
4.) NYR
5.) CAR
6.) FLA
7.) CHI
8.) NSH
9.) WAS
10.) BUF
11.) ANA
12.) PHX
13.) CAL
14.) MIN
15.) LA
16.) MTL
17.) TB
18.) NYI
19.) EDM
20.) SJ
21.) STL
22.) BOS
23.) DAL
24.) VAN
25.) TOR
26.) NJ
27.) COL
28.) PHI
29.) OTT
30.) DET
 

hockeytown9321

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Jun 18, 2004
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MLH said:
So why does the NFL, a system that is the closest thing professional sports will see to an even playing field, even order their drafts. Why don't they just pick randomly every year?

Because they've never taken a full season off. Nobody is saying the draft should be random every year.
 

kdb209

Registered User
Jan 26, 2005
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Tawnos said:
No can do. That leaves Crosby open to just decide to sign whereever he wants when he turns 18. And if the league tries to block him, they'll get sued on age discrimination so fast it'll make Fedorov look like Ulanov. You cannot prevent an adult in the US from making a living the best way he knows how, and 18 is an adult.

Maurice Clarett may have a different opinion on this.

The courts upheld the NFL draft criteria (3 yrs after high school) and would probably do so for the NHL if it was included in a negotiated CBA - an impossed one, well that may be another story.
 

MLH

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Feb 6, 2003
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hockeytown9321 said:
Because they've never taken a full season off. Nobody is saying the draft should be random every year.

Yeah, I'm aware.

My point is that a "level playing field" doesn't ensure that each team has the same chance of finishing in the bottom 5 in a specifically given season. The odds that good teams from last year would all of the sudden tank aren't likely. It's not impossible so that's why I think every team should at least have a shot, but you have to find the best way to do the impossible-predict what the standing would have been.
 

Jaded-Fan

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Mar 18, 2004
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slats432 said:
John, I disagree, if the teams that have some of the best talent in the league and are saying that the league is going to start with a whole new playing field then a full dispersal draft of all the players in the NHL is in order.

Why should Tampa Bay have Lecavalier, Richards, Kubina etc etc and get Crosby ahead of Malone, Fata, Tarnstrom?

Even if the advantages are not drastic, there has to be some.


Now there is an idea . . . Keep El Sid . . . I will take LeCalvier. The big boys do not want that though do they? The want their LeCalviers AND an equal chance at Crosby too. Got to give them credit for ballsiness though.
 
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