Fan 590's Howard Berger: Contentious debate about draft

[Timmy]

DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!

Would someone please end this misery!!!???

Don't look now, but it's spawning more threads.

 

[Master Lok]

Yes it is.
But then again, if the NHL had won its $40M cap, Detroit's roster would have been totally different.
Hull was already gone. Yzerman, Schneider and Chelios would not have been able to fit under the cap. RFA Datsyuk wouldn not have fit under the cap.
So take last year's Detroit, subtract Hull, Yzerman, Chelios, Schneider, Datsyuk.

You're looking at a team that would probably be on the playoff bubble.
WIth good luck, they still finish 5th or 6th.
With bad luck, they're 10th or 11th in the conference, and maybe much worse if they decide to sell off at the trade deadline ....

Either way, this indicates something fundamental to the argument.
A team's fortunes can change mightily in one year.
Therefore, it is totally unfair to base anything on year old results.

Oh please. You're telling me that Detroit would be willing to trade away Datsyuk because of cap concerns? No way would that happen. They would either go over, or trade other players before Datsyuk.

 

[Jester]

Oh please. You're telling me that Detroit would be willing to trade away Datsyuk because of cap concerns? No way would that happen. They would either go over, or trade other players before Datsyuk.

ah... cap, thus couldn't go over.

yes, they would have traded someone else... or bought-out someone.

 

[Mess]

How ironic. Teams like Detroit, Toronto, et al want to be rewarded with Crosby despite not doing anything to 'earn' it.

Earn It ????

Good One

The worst, least competitive , weakest , biggest loser on the season is rewarded with the greatest price because Heck knows they EARNED IT ...

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

Oh please. You're telling me that Detroit would be willing to trade away Datsyuk because of cap concerns? No way would that happen. They would either go over, or trade other players before Datsyuk.

Even with the 24 percent giveback, Detroit's salary was still close to $46-50 Million.
How do you propose to sign an RFA if you are already over budget???
By trading more players? Well, if you can get anyone to take Hatcher and Whitney off your hands ...
But even then, you're diluting your talent base.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Earn It ????

Good One

The worst, least competitive , weakest , biggest loser on the season is rewarded with the greatest price because Heck knows they EARNED IT ...

The fans sure did, by sitting through some pretty piss poor hockey for several seasons. I have no clue how you possible can argue that the best draft picks should go to the teams who have the most point totals, the most talent. It is this kind of attitude that explains some of the resentment bigger market fans engender. This feeling of entitlement is almost breathtaking in its sheer breadth of obnoxiousness with some of you.

 

[MacDaddy TLC*]

The NHL should go back to its original draft scenario. They had a list, each year the team at the top of the list drafts first and then drops to the bottom of the list the following year. They could also add the snake draft formula to the equation. This would stop rewarding teams for mismanagement or tanking (looking at you Pittsburgh who has done it twice in the last 20 years and you too Ottawa-- but you already got what you deserved!)

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

The NHL should go back to its original draft scenario. They had a list, each year the team at the top of the list drafts first and then drops to the bottom of the list the following year. They could also add the snake draft formula to the equation. This would stop rewarding teams for mismanagement or tanking (looking at you Pittsburgh who has done it twice in the last 20 years and you too Ottawa-- but you already got what you deserved!)

When was this draft formula used??

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The NHL should go back to its original draft scenario. They had a list, each year the team at the top of the list drafts first and then drops to the bottom of the list the following year. They could also add the snake draft formula to the equation. This would stop rewarding teams for mismanagement or tanking (looking at you Pittsburgh who has done it twice in the last 20 years and you too Ottawa-- but you already got what you deserved!)

Fans like you constantly ask me not to blame your team for exploiting the system that was in place, fully. And I never have, I blamed the system, not the teams for taking advantage of what was in place. My Pens did NOT tank. They were first of all in full survival mode. They had no Daddy Warbucks owner to bail them out, and STILL lost money last year despite paring salaries to the bone, but it was the least losses among the 19 teams who lost money. They also did so in such a way to position themselves very well for a new Cap environment, I can give a nod and kudos to Craig Patrick for turning a big negative into a big positive with the very bad hand that he was dealt. Finally, they worked behind the scenes for a new arena so that they could be strong in the years to come.

They worked very well within the system. Now can you give them the same break you have asked for in the past years for your Maple Leafs, and not judge them for acting as best they could within the system they operated under. And acknowledge that they did NOT tank.

 

[MacDaddy TLC*]

Back up the bus! The Penguins were in survival mode? A couple days ago you claimed they were preparing for the armageddon! And if you don't think they tanked in 1984..... (for you)

When was this draft formula used??

When the draft was instituted and until expansion, I believe.

 

[PecaFan]

When the draft was instituted and until expansion, I believe.

Nope. No draft was ever done under this silly "everyone gets a turn" system.

 

[MacDaddy TLC*]

Nope. No draft was ever done under this silly "everyone gets a turn" system.

Maybe you should read Total Hockey. The first few drafts were done under this system.
In '63 the order was:
Montreal
Detroit
Boston
NY Rangers
Chicago
Toronto

In '64:
Detroit
Boston
NY Rangers
Chicago
Toronto
Montreal

Not much was at stake these years due to a hefty amount of the decent talent was already property of NHL teams due to the sponsor system that was in place prior to '63 when the league began phasing it out.

 

[PecaFan]

Ok, you got me there, I had forgotten about that. I'll plead old age.

Although it must be noted, the early drafts were nothing like the real drafts to come later on. Teams didn't even know why they had to pick players, passed on picks, didn't even draft some years, etc. The draft truly was a non-entity in the first few years while they figured out what the purpose was.

And of course, if you're arguing for a return to this old format, then you'll also have to argue for Montreal to once again get exclusive cultural rights to all French players.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

The fans sure did, by sitting through some pretty piss poor hockey for several seasons. I have no clue how you possible can argue that the best draft picks should go to the teams who have the most point totals, the most talent. It is this kind of attitude that explains some of the resentment bigger market fans engender. This feeling of entitlement is almost breathtaking in its sheer breadth of obnoxiousness with some of you.

Settle down.
I've already explained my position, as a Detroit fan. ANd if you can't see the merit in my argument, then you;re simply not looking.,
Detroit, given the age of the team, UFA losses, and a sudden inability to restock or even maintain its roster if there is/was a salary cap, would have almost surely fallen considerably last season, if one was played.

So rather than get in a huff and call people names, why don't you give me a logical answer.
How in the world is it fair for a team like Detroit to be punished for past success?
Drafts have always been an immediate reward for the poor teams.
The poor teams have already been rewarded.

I'm willing to look at fair scenarios.
I'd be put the draft off and double up next season. Why are people opposed to this? Is it because these people are actually the ones who want "something for nothing?" Two years reward for mediocrity?
I'd even advocate an NHL draft at the All Star break, based on points percentage.

But I will not accept is a ranking that gives Detroit the worst pick because it had a great regular season record 18 months ago, or whatever.

That is unfair.

You can cry about big market fans being obnoxious all you want.
I'm not asking for Sidney Crosby.
I'm asking for a draft choice that reflects Detroit's needs.

WIth no season, there is no fair way to determine how good or bad Detroit would have been.

Get it?

 

[Mess]

Fans like you constantly ask me not to blame your team for exploiting the system that was in place, fully. And I never have, I blamed the system, not the teams for taking advantage of what was in place. My Pens did NOT tank. They were first of all in full survival mode. They had no Daddy Warbucks owner to bail them out, and STILL lost money last year despite paring salaries to the bone, but it was the least losses among the 19 teams who lost money. They also did so in such a way to position themselves very well for a new Cap environment, I can give a nod and kudos to Craig Patrick for turning a big negative into a big positive with the very bad hand that he was dealt. Finally, they worked behind the scenes for a new arena so that they could be strong in the years to come.

They worked very well within the system. Now can you give them the same break you have asked for in the past years for your Maple Leafs, and not judge them for acting as best they could within the system they operated under. And acknowledge that they did NOT tank.

What do you feel is more important to your team for long term success ..

Early Draft picks or Revenue Sharing ??

You're not likely going to get both so you will be forced to choose one at the expense of the other ..

 

[reckoning]

So rather than get in a huff and call people names, why don't you give me a logical answer.
How in the world is it fair for a team like Detroit to be punished for past success?
Drafts have always been an immediate reward for the poor teams.
The poor teams have already been rewarded.

Since it appears that it will be a snake-draft, I bet that even if Detroit had the last pick in the first round then the small-market fans would start whining about how unfair it is to give them the first pick in the second round.

 

[Morbo]

"Fair" is apparently defined as "everything goes the poor/weak teams' way" these days.

 

[Mess]

"Fair" is apparently defined as "everything goes the poor/weak teams' way" these days.

You mean like

Hard Cap
To equal the playing surface so they can compete better based on their talent levels. The old cliché .. " IF YOU CAN'T BEAT THEM, MAKE THEM JOIN YOU "

Revenue Sharing
Taking profits from the well managed & Big Market team fans, so weaker teams fans can watch games cheaper and the team can afford to employ better players on the ice.

Entry Draft
Heavily weighted in favour of the poor performing teams of the past, already rewarded once for this now combining failure over multiple years to determine the TRULY BIGGEST LOSERS ..

UFA
Where the Big Market Established teams are capped out when the UFA season starts giving the weak free reign on the best talent. With no competition from the Big Market teams, they could get themselves great talent at low prices, in an effort for proven NHL players to cling to an NHL career.

Playoffs
Format altered to increase to 20 teams to give a greater chance to get in and so teams like Atlanta (78 points), finishing 2nd in a Div would be in and Ottawa (102 points) play-in, in a short 3 game series, NHL hoping for upsets of course.

CBA
Where it does not take a majority vote, but rather is set up so that Big Market teams votes virtually do not factor in the decision, and 8 hardline Owners are enough to control the CBA outcome.

Scheduling
Heavy interdivisional play so that weaker divisions have more games against weaker opponents to earn points, while the stronger ones cancel each other out..

Only thing left might be for Bettman to do is relocate the Big market teams to smaller markets to take the " BRIGHT LIGHT ..BIG CITY " advantage away from them .. and his masterpiece is complete ..

Nah you're probably only painting that lopsided picture, the NHL wouldn't operate like that ..... Would it ??

Dismantle and take down the Biggest Revenue producing teams of the NHL for the sake of the weakest, in an attempt to GROW THE GAME !!!.

Seriously !!!!.... IS THAT THE PLAN ?????

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

Maybe you should read Total Hockey. The first few drafts were done under this system.
In '63 the order was:
Montreal
Detroit
Boston
NY Rangers
Chicago
Toronto

In '64:
Detroit
Boston
NY Rangers
Chicago
Toronto
Montreal

Not much was at stake these years due to a hefty amount of the decent talent was already property of NHL teams due to the sponsor system that was in place prior to '63 when the league began phasing it out.

Thanks for the info, I had guessed that it must have been under the old draft, which as you point out held little effect.

 

[MacDaddy TLC*]

This is also why Montreal didn't use their heritage rule where they could trade their first and second round picks for the first and second overall picks to select Quebeccers. They already had the good quebec players locked up, but by the time the sponsorship benefits ran out, they used it.