TeamBester
Debunked
Come on Interactif, I wanna know. Is it true or not that you wanted/hoped the Leafs to pass on Grig because he was an one dimensional, heartless, bust waiting to happen?
The problem is, if everyone on the team is the exact same age, you run into cap problems having to sign everyone at once.
Also what is with your Grigorenko obsession all the sudden. I remember you being vehemently against him coming up to that draft. Like disgusted by the chance of us taking him. What has he done in the two and a half years to change your mind? Are you confusing him with Galchenyuk, or is it just you want every 1994 born kid no matter the skill?
Just find it odd your 180 on a player who hasn't proved a thing. Won't even bother with Bernier or Kadri for him. Your making it sound like every 20 year old player is a guarantee to reach above 50 points. That just doesn't happen.
Winnik - 2nd would be my goal, probably optimistic though
Santi - seems reasonable
Lupul - seems reasonable
Franson - depending on demand for him I could see us getting a 1st, or 2nd+prospect. If we only wanted a 2nd I bet he would be gone already, just a 2nd would be a last minute last resort for me since that 2nd would probably be from a playoff team so it'd be late.
Bozak - not giving him up for only a 2nd rounder
Gardiner - same thing, if we can't do better than a 2nd, we keep him. Remember it took a 2nd from us to get a struggling Holland who was in the AHL at the time
JVR - we could easily get a first round, probably more, unless you blow the socks off me, pass
Kessel - added prospect better be a good one
Dion - no salary retention I think you might be right with the 2nd, but if we retain, especially if we retain a mill+ then we could get far more.
Kadri - easy keep, nobody will give up what it takes to get him
Holland - somehow Holland is worth less now than when he was a struggling AHLer who couldn't crack the Ducks. He's still young, would not give him up for a 2nd, let alone a 3rd.
Komarov - worth far more to us than to anyone in a trade, keep
Rielly - not happening
This is why the draft is and always will be a crapshoot and the teams that see fruit from the draft are the ones who have a committed formula in player development AT THE NHL LEVEL something the Leafs stink at since day 1 of it's existence.
These are kids that are being projected not young men. You draft on NHL attributes like you've mention and commit to developing the confidence for the player to make those attributes be palpable in the NHL first and for most. Once that confidence is instilled then you work on completing a players all around game.
What the Leafs have done these past 3 years is take a young guys strength away and wonder why they struggle with consistency.
I would love Grigo but not at the cost of Kadri. Doesn't make sense at all. For Bozak I would do it but Buffalo would scoff at that.
Your Idea makes sense but I personally feel we have an undervalued prospect in Gauthier. He wont be a star but boy will this guy help in winning hockey games. He could step in right now and be a shutdown center.
It's strange how people buy into hype all the time and can't see a good player just because he's not star power pedigree in scrambled jr hockey. Gauthier is a better version of the type of NHL game that Sean Couturier currently deploys but you wouldn't know it because we look at point production with prospects more so then the pro's do who look at point production last. With prospects it's all about NHL caliber attributes and project what they could be as a pro both in terms of peak potential and on the lower end.
Gauthier at worst is a 4th line PK specialist but I see more with him in the NHL as he'll be playing in a game that's more built to his strengths of reading a game where jr is more scrambled play where skilled guys look better than they would in the NHL like hint wink Sean Couturier. He had to change to be an NHLer Gauthier doesn't.
Well I am looking for ways to improve the team. I do find it strange to people objecting at moving some players and not others. The only truly hard to move player is Rielly. So let's stop overrating our players and discuss deals that can make a difference.
I don`t wanna send Robidas back to Dallas. I wanna send Phaneuf there for a 1st.
Robidas`contract is one that I care the least about. He`s a fine 3rd pairing vet that we should keep around.
The problem is, if everyone on the team is the exact same age, you run into cap problems having to sign everyone at once.
Also what is with your Grigorenko obsession all the sudden. I remember you being vehemently against him coming up to that draft. Like disgusted by the chance of us taking him. What has he done in the two and a half years to change your mind? Are you confusing him with Galchenyuk, or is it just you want every 1994 born kid no matter the skill?
Just find it odd your 180 on a player who hasn't proved a thing. Won't even bother with Bernier or Kadri for him. Your making it sound like every 20 year old player is a guarantee to reach above 50 points. That just doesn't happen.
That's fair, but if we are dealing some of the guys you mentioned, I'd rather get someone more proven than Grigorenko. Or if they are going to be unproven, I'd want someone with a little more potential than Grigorenko. We need to improve, but your ideas here have too much risk. Would Colorado trade O'Reilly for Gauthier (or something along those lines)? Or even would the Jets trade Bogosian for Percy?
If Edmonton gets the 2nd overall pick at the draft, what would it take to get it from them? Assume we have the 5th overall pick. I ask because their management has said another 18 year old kid will not help them. I am aware they are open to trading their pick every year but hey let's have some fun with it.
Kessel for Jones + NAS 1st 2015 +
Franson for LAK 1st 2015
Bozak + Gardiner for ROR
At the draft:
TOR 1st + LAK 1st + Phaneuf for EDM 2nd overall (Eichel)
----------------
JVR - Eichel - Nylander
Lupul - Kadri - ROR
Komarov - Holland - Santorelli
Winnik - Gauthier - Clarkson
-Brown/Leivo/Broll/Carrick
Rielly - Jones
Percy - Polak
Loov - Granberg
-Robidas/Holzer/Finn/Nilsson
Bernier
Reimer
There's risk, I recognize this. This is where your pro scouts come in and they make that call. Does Grigorenko have a shot at being a Top 6 Center in the NHL? If we knew this, the price would be much higher. There is always risk in deals. I think it's a good risk, if we are truly taking a step back and rebuilding it correctly.
Too much uncertainty right now though. We'll see where we are and where they are. Bozak + Gardiner for ROR + 2nd would be fair I guess. Franson for the late first is excellent and I like Kessel if the plus is suitable.
It's quite simple, we are a rebuilding team. A 20 year old has 7 years before they can be a UFA. A team will have control over them longer. Contracts at 20-24 are more controllable. Regardless I think it's good to have players peaking at the same age of our 1 piece Rielly. The problem with the construction of this team is we have some players that have peaked, some not, some are not even in the NHL. I'm looking for players like Grigorenko that were high picks that may not fit in the plans of their teams any longer. Nothing wrong with trading 24-26 year for already drafted similar aged players as Rielly.
We`re not getting Jones for Kessel. I wouldn`t even deal Jones straight up for Kessel. But then I do dislike Kessel.
At this point I`d be fine to get a 1st round pick and a couple decent prospects for him.
Your giving this similar-age thing far too much weight.
while I don't agree with the names int is using
I get the premise and I don't completely disagree with him.
at 26/27 you pretty much know what you have in a player
I would argue that a 20 year old holds a better chances to surprise and become more then what folks think of them at that time but you also risk the reverse and they turn into far less then what one thought they was.. It's a risk/reward type trade.
while I don't agree with the names int is using
I get the premise and I don't completely disagree with him.
at 26/27 you pretty much know what you have in a player
I would argue that a 20 year old holds a better chances to surprise and become more then what folks think of them at that time but you also risk the reverse and they turn into far less then what one thought they was.. It's a risk/reward type trade.
No one is denying that - only that that reason alone isn't justification to trade Kadri for Grig.
No one is denying that - only that that reason alone isn't justification to trade Kadri for Grig.
It would be, if Grigorenko is better than Kadri is at the same age at 24 in 3-4 years when hopefully this team led by Rielly are all better and ready to win as a group of 24 year old young men.