FA/Trade Thread 2014-15 Season V.11 - Trade Deadline Approaching

[TeamBester]

Come on Interactif, I wanna know. Is it true or not that you wanted/hoped the Leafs to pass on Grig because he was an one dimensional, heartless, bust waiting to happen?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

The problem is, if everyone on the team is the exact same age, you run into cap problems having to sign everyone at once.

Also what is with your Grigorenko obsession all the sudden. I remember you being vehemently against him coming up to that draft. Like disgusted by the chance of us taking him. What has he done in the two and a half years to change your mind? Are you confusing him with Galchenyuk, or is it just you want every 1994 born kid no matter the skill?

Just find it odd your 180 on a player who hasn't proved a thing. Won't even bother with Bernier or Kadri for him. Your making it sound like every 20 year old player is a guarantee to reach above 50 points. That just doesn't happen.

Well I am looking for ways to improve the team. I do find it strange to people objecting at moving some players and not others. The only truly hard to move player is Rielly. So let's stop overrating our players and discuss deals that can make a difference.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Winnik - 2nd would be my goal, probably optimistic though

Santi - seems reasonable

Lupul - seems reasonable

Franson - depending on demand for him I could see us getting a 1st, or 2nd+prospect. If we only wanted a 2nd I bet he would be gone already, just a 2nd would be a last minute last resort for me since that 2nd would probably be from a playoff team so it'd be late.

Bozak - not giving him up for only a 2nd rounder

Gardiner - same thing, if we can't do better than a 2nd, we keep him. Remember it took a 2nd from us to get a struggling Holland who was in the AHL at the time

JVR - we could easily get a first round, probably more, unless you blow the socks off me, pass

Kessel - added prospect better be a good one

Dion - no salary retention I think you might be right with the 2nd, but if we retain, especially if we retain a mill+ then we could get far more.

Kadri - easy keep, nobody will give up what it takes to get him

Holland - somehow Holland is worth less now than when he was a struggling AHLer who couldn't crack the Ducks. He's still young, would not give him up for a 2nd, let alone a 3rd.

Komarov - worth far more to us than to anyone in a trade, keep

Rielly - not happening

A 2nd for Dion is laughable. I don't even consider a deal that doesn't start with a 1st + B prospect no retention. He's our second most valuable player behind Kessel, and his salary is not a hindrance for him at all as long as teams can fit him in (and if nobody can, keep him until the offseason when they can). Kessel's deal is also pretty bad. He can easily get a 1st, a top prospect and a roster player with value, if not another 2nd thrown in there. Santorelli and Lupul should be getting more than Winnik, but that's not as bad of a price. Bozak, Gardiner and Franson even more so.

 

[Faltorvo]

This is why the draft is and always will be a crapshoot and the teams that see fruit from the draft are the ones who have a committed formula in player development AT THE NHL LEVEL something the Leafs stink at since day 1 of it's existence.

These are kids that are being projected not young men. You draft on NHL attributes like you've mention and commit to developing the confidence for the player to make those attributes be palpable in the NHL first and for most. Once that confidence is instilled then you work on completing a players all around game.

What the Leafs have done these past 3 years is take a young guys strength away and wonder why they struggle with consistency.

I would love Grigo but not at the cost of Kadri. Doesn't make sense at all. For Bozak I would do it but Buffalo would scoff at that.

Your Idea makes sense but I personally feel we have an undervalued prospect in Gauthier. He wont be a star but boy will this guy help in winning hockey games. He could step in right now and be a shutdown center.

It's strange how people buy into hype all the time and can't see a good player just because he's not star power pedigree in scrambled jr hockey. Gauthier is a better version of the type of NHL game that Sean Couturier currently deploys but you wouldn't know it because we look at point production with prospects more so then the pro's do who look at point production last. With prospects it's all about NHL caliber attributes and project what they could be as a pro both in terms of peak potential and on the lower end.

Gauthier at worst is a 4th line PK specialist but I see more with him in the NHL as he'll be playing in a game that's more built to his strengths of reading a game where jr is more scrambled play where skilled guys look better than they would in the NHL like hint wink Sean Couturier. He had to change to be an NHLer Gauthier doesn't.

I just don't get why you keep on listing the draft as a crap shoot

every avenue to add players is a crap shoot

ink a UFA? could turn into a total crapper on our roster in our system Clarkson,komi,FB,conelly, , just to name a few examples

trades? hrmm,, verstink,raycroft,stempniak,toskola,liles,gleason some examples

all avenues are total crap shoots

so forgive me if I don't understand your overwhelming fear of the draft.

 

[Judas Tavares]

Well I am looking for ways to improve the team. I do find it strange to people objecting at moving some players and not others. The only truly hard to move player is Rielly. So let's stop overrating our players and discuss deals that can make a difference.

That's fair, but if we are dealing some of the guys you mentioned, I'd rather get someone more proven than Grigorenko. Or if they are going to be unproven, I'd want someone with a little more potential than Grigorenko. We need to improve, but your ideas here have too much risk. Would Colorado trade O'Reilly for Gauthier (or something along those lines)? Or even would the Jets trade Bogosian for Percy?

 

[080]

I don`t wanna send Robidas back to Dallas. I wanna send Phaneuf there for a 1st.

Robidas`contract is one that I care the least about. He`s a fine 3rd pairing vet that we should keep around.

 

[TeamBester]

Why would anyone trade a young 2nd line center that is growing into a pretty good two way player for a MAYBE 2nd line center that is one dimensional and heartless?

Just to make up three years?

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I don`t wanna send Robidas back to Dallas. I wanna send Phaneuf there for a 1st.

Robidas`contract is one that I care the least about. He`s a fine 3rd pairing vet that we should keep around.

I'm still a fan of Phaneuf + Reimer + Biggs for Ritchie + Cole + Horcoff + 1st 2016. It's fair. Heck, I'd even throw Robidas for a prospect and/or a pick. So in two separate deals it could easily be:


Brett Ritchie
Jason Dickinson (for Robidas)
Erik Cole
Shawn Horcoff
1st round pick 2016


Dion Phaneuf
Stephane Robidas
James Reimer
Tyler Biggs


Though if we couldn't get a good pick or prospect for Robidas, then yes, I would keep him. I'm not trading him for negative value.

 

[one77]

If Edmonton gets the 2nd overall pick at the draft, what would it take to get it from them? Assume we have the 5th overall pick. I ask because their management has said another 18 year old kid will not help them. I am aware they are open to trading their pick every year but hey let's have some fun with it.

Kessel for Jones + NAS 1st 2015 +
Franson for LAK 1st 2015
Bozak + Gardiner for ROR

At the draft:
TOR 1st + LAK 1st + Phaneuf for EDM 2nd overall (Eichel)

----------------

JVR - Eichel - Nylander
Lupul - Kadri - ROR
Komarov - Holland - Santorelli
Winnik - Gauthier - Clarkson
-Brown/Leivo/Broll/Carrick

Rielly - Jones
Percy - Polak
Loov - Granberg
-Robidas/Holzer/Finn/Nilsson

Bernier
Reimer

 

[Faltorvo]

The problem is, if everyone on the team is the exact same age, you run into cap problems having to sign everyone at once.

Also what is with your Grigorenko obsession all the sudden. I remember you being vehemently against him coming up to that draft. Like disgusted by the chance of us taking him. What has he done in the two and a half years to change your mind? Are you confusing him with Galchenyuk, or is it just you want every 1994 born kid no matter the skill?

Just find it odd your 180 on a player who hasn't proved a thing. Won't even bother with Bernier or Kadri for him. Your making it sound like every 20 year old player is a guarantee to reach above 50 points. That just doesn't happen.

to what I bolded

I truly don't understand your concern here, I really don't

for the team to run into cap issues those young players would have to turn into pretty damn good players to command the money,right? ergo, a pretty damn good team

they have full control of those assets till age 27, giving them plenty of time to pick exactly who they want to keep and the rest? , well if they can command the type of money that causes cap issues that means they are young talented and therefore valuable on the trade market.

I really don't see anything bad here.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

That's fair, but if we are dealing some of the guys you mentioned, I'd rather get someone more proven than Grigorenko. Or if they are going to be unproven, I'd want someone with a little more potential than Grigorenko. We need to improve, but your ideas here have too much risk. Would Colorado trade O'Reilly for Gauthier (or something along those lines)? Or even would the Jets trade Bogosian for Percy?

There's risk, I recognize this. This is where your pro scouts come in and they make that call. Does Grigorenko have a shot at being a Top 6 Center in the NHL? If we knew this, the price would be much higher. There is always risk in deals. I think it's a good risk, if we are truly taking a step back and rebuilding it correctly.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

If Edmonton gets the 2nd overall pick at the draft, what would it take to get it from them? Assume we have the 5th overall pick. I ask because their management has said another 18 year old kid will not help them. I am aware they are open to trading their pick every year but hey let's have some fun with it.

Kessel for Jones + NAS 1st 2015 +
Franson for LAK 1st 2015
Bozak + Gardiner for ROR

At the draft:
TOR 1st + LAK 1st + Phaneuf for EDM 2nd overall (Eichel)

----------------

JVR - Eichel - Nylander
Lupul - Kadri - ROR
Komarov - Holland - Santorelli
Winnik - Gauthier - Clarkson
-Brown/Leivo/Broll/Carrick

Rielly - Jones
Percy - Polak
Loov - Granberg
-Robidas/Holzer/Finn/Nilsson

Bernier
Reimer

Too much uncertainty right now though. We'll see where we are and where they are. Bozak + Gardiner for ROR + 2nd would be fair I guess. Franson for the late first is excellent and I like Kessel if the plus is suitable.

 

[TheCLAM]

There's risk, I recognize this. This is where your pro scouts come in and they make that call. Does Grigorenko have a shot at being a Top 6 Center in the NHL? If we knew this, the price would be much higher. There is always risk in deals. I think it's a good risk, if we are truly taking a step back and rebuilding it correctly.

You can make risky deals when you have depth within the system to gamble. In this case we don't, Kadri is a young, proven commodity and this is poor asset management. You don't trade for a Grigorenko type prospect when in reality his upside isn't not much high than Kadri. Instead you look to upgrade on Kadri and attain the better asset in a deal. If you can't you look to make a lateral deal to bring in a similar calibre player that plays a suitable style of play.

Quantity for quality almost never pan out, remember that.

 

[080]

Too much uncertainty right now though. We'll see where we are and where they are. Bozak + Gardiner for ROR + 2nd would be fair I guess. Franson for the late first is excellent and I like Kessel if the plus is suitable.

We`re not getting Jones for Kessel. I wouldn`t even deal Jones straight up for Kessel. But then I do dislike Kessel.

At this point I`d be fine to get a 1st round pick and a couple decent prospects for him.

 

[dubplatepressure]

It's quite simple, we are a rebuilding team. A 20 year old has 7 years before they can be a UFA. A team will have control over them longer. Contracts at 20-24 are more controllable. Regardless I think it's good to have players peaking at the same age of our 1 piece Rielly. The problem with the construction of this team is we have some players that have peaked, some not, some are not even in the NHL. I'm looking for players like Grigorenko that were high picks that may not fit in the plans of their teams any longer. Nothing wrong with trading 24-26 year for already drafted similar aged players as Rielly.

Your giving this similar-age thing far too much weight.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

We`re not getting Jones for Kessel. I wouldn`t even deal Jones straight up for Kessel. But then I do dislike Kessel.

At this point I`d be fine to get a 1st round pick and a couple decent prospects for him.

Well he suggested it, I just voiced my pleasure with the deal. I'm not the biggest fan of Kessel either, but that has nothing to do with what I think he's worth. I think that's why a lot of Leafs players' values are so low right now. We are just frustrated with everyone and think they're worthless when they are actually the opposite. We're a very skilled team that just can't put it together. We're missing the gel, and without the gel, we aren't very good.

 

[Faltorvo]

Your giving this similar-age thing far too much weight.

while I don't agree with the names int is using

I get the premise and I don't completely disagree with him.

at 26/27 you pretty much know what you have in a player

I would argue that a 20 year old holds a better chances to surprise and become more then what folks think of them at that time but you also risk the reverse and they turn into far less then what one thought they was.. It's a risk/reward type trade.

 

[dubplatepressure]

while I don't agree with the names int is using

I get the premise and I don't completely disagree with him.

at 26/27 you pretty much know what you have in a player

I would argue that a 20 year old holds a better chances to surprise and become more then what folks think of them at that time but you also risk the reverse and they turn into far less then what one thought they was.. It's a risk/reward type trade.

No one is denying that - only that that reason alone isn't justification to trade Kadri for Grig.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

while I don't agree with the names int is using

I get the premise and I don't completely disagree with him.

at 26/27 you pretty much know what you have in a player

I would argue that a 20 year old holds a better chances to surprise and become more then what folks think of them at that time but you also risk the reverse and they turn into far less then what one thought they was.. It's a risk/reward type trade.

Thanks, if anything is gained from this discussion I am happy some are grasping the premise I am advocating. Cheers.

 

[Faltorvo]

No one is denying that - only that that reason alone isn't justification to trade Kadri for Grig.

oh of course not

add in, that we are not yet at the stage where we know what kadri will become.

take a guy like bozo, we know what he is and it ain't gonna get any better

so one has to ask at his age and his development curve done, is he worth, needed to be kept around at this stage of the teams dev curve and I say hell no, bye bye bozo.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

No one is denying that - only that that reason alone isn't justification to trade Kadri for Grig.

It would be, if Grigorenko is better than Kadri is at the same age at 24 in 3-4 years when hopefully this team led by Rielly are all better and ready to win as a group of 24 year old young men.

 

[dubplatepressure]

It would be, if Grigorenko is better than Kadri is at the same age at 24 in 3-4 years when hopefully this team led by Rielly are all better and ready to win as a group of 24 year old young men.

How does that phrase go - if it's and buts were candy and nuts...


Unfortunately, there's little to indicate that Grig will be. Lupul for Grig? Sure. Percy/Finn? Ok. Not Kadri.

 

[Nithoniniel]

While I agree that we should keep age structure in mind, you have to always base your decisions on value first and team need second. Kadri for a great center prospect is not exactly a bad idea, but it has to be a prospect with more going for him than Grigorenko.

 

[Menzinger]

Kadri will still be under 30 in 5 years time. Just to keep things in perspective.

 

[dougieg93]

Brodeur is at tonight's game perhaps to take a look at Reimer for St Louis.