Confirmed with Link: Duchene to OTT in three-team trade

[HSF]

The combination of a cheap owner not commited to winning and a coach he dislikes was more than enough reason to want out. I can't give up my source but I know he wanted out. Like I said in the other thread take it for what you want. I've been right before, every time I provide inside information I get a massive back last because it's not what people want to hear.

we know he wanted out it was already confirmed when he took 6x6 with nashville

so dorion did the best move by getting a better C

 

[bert]

we know he wanted out it was already confirmed when he took 6x6 with nashville

so dorion did the best move by getting a better C

Duchene is better? While I agree Dorion was in a tough position it was his own doing that he was forced to make that move. Cheap hire of a coach that made a bunch of bad roster decisions for him. Painted him into a corner and he got lambasted in a trade.

 

[HSF]

Duchene is better? While I agree Dorion was in a tough position it was his own doing that he was forced to make that move. Cheap hire of a coach that made a bunch of bad roster decisions for him. Painted him into a corner and he got lambasted in a trade.

throughout his career Duchene has shown to be better...the numbers back it up

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I'm not disagreeing with the entirety of your post, but Boucher was an in demand coaching candidate before the Senators signed him. TOR was very close to making him their head coach when they thought they were out on Babcock.

In theory, Boucher was a good hire as a strong systems guy for a team that doesn't have a lot of high end skill available to them. Although, with the benefit of hindsight, maybe it was a bad idea hiring a coach with a reputation as being hard to play for a franchise that hasn't been able to stick with a head coach for a decade.

 

[Micklebot]

I'm not disagreeing with the entirety of your post, but Boucher was an in demand coaching candidate before the Senators signed him. TOR was very close to making him their head coach when they thought they were out on Babcock.

In theory, Boucher was a good hire as a strong systems guy for a team that doesn't have a lot of high end skill available to them. Although, with the benefit of hindsight, maybe it was a bad idea hiring a coach with a reputation as being hard to play for a franchise that hasn't been able to stick with a head coach for a decade.

I get that Boucher has his faults, and I have my personal list of concerns, but I frankly can't understand how this team took such a drastic nosedive. Things weren't perfect prior to us returning from Sweden, but taking all that into account, I just can't understand how this team has gone so far off the rails so quickly. The season actually started off pretty promising too.

Are injuries to Wideman and Boro bigger issues than people are giving credit? Has the team lost it's faith because of the trading of Turris (they seemed fine with it in Sweden). Are the players simply burnt out from trying to maintain this system for so long?

 

[danielpalfredsson]

we know he wanted out it was already confirmed when he took 6x6 with nashville

so dorion did the best move by getting a better C

That's still not exactly confirmation Turris wanted out. It's entirely possible that Turris relented and signed there to get this circus over with.

It's hard to assess the situation because we have no idea what actually happened. We have two posters in this thread with sources claiming opposite things.

The way I see it, if Turris wasn't going to re-sign here even if Dorion played ball and actually made an effort to bridge the gap, it was a good trade at the time. Nobody saw us losing what is it now, 9 out of 10 games? Karlsson is set to negotiate his contract in July. Whether it was foolish or not, we're in win now mode. That means, Dorion for all the carny talk he does was probably being honest about how he was not going to trade Turris. As irresponsible as it might be to let a big UFA like that walk for nothing, it'd be more irresponsible to trade away our 1C for futures when we are auditioning for Karlsson to re-sign. If this is what happened, Dorion basically traded a protected 1st+Bowers+3rd for 1 (extra) year of a 1C who at worst is a lateral move, at best is an upgrade.

If Turris was willing to negotiate and stay here, but Dorion had tunnel vision, that makes the trade look pretty bad. The difference between Turris and Duchene was not what we gave up. Turris signed in NSH for 6x6 with zero trade protection. The no trade protection part is huge. If that was achievable here, Dorion made a very bad trade.

I get why he may have did it. He seemed to think we couldn't win with Turris, and that Duchene made us a contender (assuming OTT was the team Pierre McGuire was alluding to on his TSN 1200 spots), which if that's his assessment, it was the right move. The only problem, I'm not sure I agree with his assessment, at least not to the tune of giving up Turris+1st+Bowers+3rd rather than re-signing Turris to a 6x6 deal. Like I said, I am discussing the trade under the idea that a contract like that was achievable. If it wasn't, I am fine with the trade.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I get that Boucher has his faults, and I have my personal list of concerns, but I frankly can't understand how this team took such a drastic nosedive. Things weren't perfect prior to us returning from Sweden, but taking all that into account, I just can't understand how this team has gone so far off the rails so quickly. The season actually started off pretty promising too.

Are injuries to Wideman and Boro bigger issues than people are giving credit? Has the team lost it's faith because of the trading of Turris (they seemed fine with it in Sweden). Are the players simply burnt out from trying to maintain this system for so long?

The players are burnt out from a deep playoff run and a messed up schedule due to the Sweden games. People bring up how COL was fine, but COL didn't play nearly 20 extra games last year, they were golfing and relaxing when the Senators and Erik Karlsson were tearing down their bodies trying to win a Stanley Cup. I can only imagine that playing a demanding system with a hard coach in this case might be making things worse. Combine that with us not getting Erik Karlsson anywhere near his average level of play, and goaltending being inconsistent, and things have snowballed.

People forget, we weren't exactly a power house last year. 2 or 3 more losses, we would have missed the playoffs. We were good at the start of the season, but it was a small sample size, and Karlsson came out swinging.

 

[Drytoast]

Correlation doesn't equal causation or whatever that saying is.

There's no way to tell for sure because I cannot travel through parallel universes to give us a legit [confirmed with travelling through parallel universes] tag, but I am willing to guess that we'd be in this same spot with Turris.

All things being equal, this downward slide has started exactly with the trade.

Did it not?

 

[Micklebot]

The players are burnt out from a deep playoff run and a messed up schedule due to the Sweden games. People bring up how COL was fine, but COL didn't play nearly 20 extra games last year, they were golfing and relaxing when the Senators and Erik Karlsson were tearing down their bodies trying to win a Stanley Cup. I can only imagine that playing a demanding system with a hard coach in this case might be making things worse. Combine that with us not getting Erik Karlsson anywhere near his average level of play, and goaltending being inconsistent, and things have snowballed.

People forget, we weren't exactly a power house last year. 2 or 3 more losses, we would have missed the playoffs. We were good at the start of the season, but it was a small sample size, and Karlsson came out swinging.

I suppose. The issue I have though, is that the Sweden trip actually afforded us a lot of down time both before and after, albeit at the price of some jet lag. I really have a hard time rationalized how bad we've been. I expected fatigue, but this goes beyond just fatigue imo. It's like they flipped a switch after the first period of the Pens game on their return from Sweden and never turned it back on.

 

[Micklebot]

All things being equal, this downward slide has started exactly with the trade.

Did it not?

No, they won two games in Sweden against Colorado where despite the close score, the team looked good. They then came back and played a dominant 1st period against the Pens (one of the teams best periods all season and into last season as well), then laid a complete egg for the next two periods, and numerous games afterwards.

 

[branch]

One player can’t reinvigorate a room of players who have quit on the coach

 

[Burrowsaurus]

One player can’t reinvigorate a room of players who have quit on the coach

We always Hear about what one player can't do. But stone is showing us what one player CAN do. He can play well. Regardless of those around him. He can score he can put up a point even if some guys on some other line are not.

"One player can't fix a whole teams issues". Probably not. But he can fix his own issues.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

All things being equal, this downward slide has started exactly with the trade.

Did it not?

Are you insinuating that us effectively swapping Turris for Duchene caused our most important player Karlsson to stop scoring entirely (0 points in 9 games), along with our goaltending to drop off a cliff?

I just don't see it. I think this slump is caused by many differing mounting issues which have now snowballed.

 

[PerdFan]

Well then you should be a happy man since they never offered Turris a contract of any kind. Not 7 or 8 years, 5 or 6 years - Turris wanted to stay, the Sens wanted Duchene.

NSH fan jumping in for a second. During Turris's introduction in NSH, he was asked why he didn't offer Sens' mgmt. a 6 year term extension in Ottawa, but agreed to sign for 6 in Nashville. He said "to be fair, they never offered me 6 years either."

 

[HSF]

NSH fan jumping in for a second. During Turris's introduction in NSH, he was asked why he didn't offer Sens' mgmt. a 6 year term extension in Ottawa, but agreed to sign for 6 in Nashville. He said "to be fair, they never offered me 6 years either."

and the sens said that turris only wanted more than 6 years

 

[Burrowsaurus]

he never was given a 6*6 offer. as far as what was public I believe it was Sens saying 5 tops and Turris saying 7 bottom. And now he's a predator.

Maybe turris didn't want the nmc. Which caused Dorion to become very very confused.

Well. That's actually genuinely confusing.

There's a "Dorion giving out nmcs" joke somehwere here.

 

[Drytoast]

No, they won two games in Sweden against Colorado where despite the close score, the team looked good. They then came back and played a dominant 1st period against the Pens (one of the teams best periods all season and into last season as well), then laid a complete egg for the next two periods, and numerous games afterwards.

I dont think those two games are enough to counter point the start drop off that the disruption of swapping turris for duchene has caused.

I cluld be wrong, but it feels very night and day since the trade.

 

[HSF]

I dont think those two games are enough to counter point the start drop off that the disruption of swapping turris for duchene has caused.

I cluld be wrong, but it feels very night and day since the trade.

Turris wasn't playing well here. Countless people were saying he doesn't have good linemates (Ryan Brass and Stone were on fire together) but now its all Duchene's fault

 

[Micklebot]

I dont think those two games are enough to counter point the start drop off that the disruption of swapping turris for duchene has caused.

I cluld be wrong, but it feels very night and day since the trade.

The timing was similar, but there doesn't appear to be any evidence of cause effect. Duchene's lines actually played well immediately following the trade. They created chances, but never capitalized. Unless guys soured on it weeks after the trade, and stopped playing the system because they missed Turris, I just don't see it. Lots around here complain about Duchene's lack of chemistry with his linemates, but ignore that Turris' line wasn't exactly performing great when he was hear either. Sure, Turris produced more pts, but the line wasn't winning the ES battle.

 

[HSF]

The timing was similar, but there doesn't appear to be any evidence of cause effect. Duchene's lines actually played well immediately following the trade. They created chances, but never capitalized. Unless guys soured on it weeks after the trade, and stopped playing the system because they missed Turris, I just don't see it. Lots around here complain about Duchene's lack of chemistry with his linemates, but ignore that Turris' line wasn't exactly performing great when he was hear either. Sure, Turris produced more pts, but the line wasn't winning the ES battle.

Bingo. Its funny how the narrative changed from 'Turris doesn't have good linemates to play with' to 'Duchene is the reason we suck' around these boards

 

[Micklebot]

Bingo. Its funny how the narrative changed from 'Turris doesn't have good linemates to play with' to 'Duchene is the reason we suck' around these boards

In fairness, Duchene has gotten the benefit of theoretically better linemates (though Ryan was broken by the time Duchene played with him)

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Duchene will come out of his slump and so will the Ottawa Senators.. Wayne Gretzky could not make the difference all by himself through this slump.

 

[HSF]

In fairness, Duchene has gotten the benefit of theoretically better linemates (though Ryan was broken by the time Duchene played with him)

ya Ryan doesn't look as good as he did to start the season pre broken hand

though no one really does

 

[Fandlauer]

It was obviously a bad trade. He's clearly a step down from Turris, but it's not Douche's fault that Andy can't stop a puck, Karlsson looks like a hollow shell of his former self, Ceci thinks he's taking swimming lessons, Brassard's hiding under the bench etc. If a one for one trade does that much damage to a team, it says more about the core than the incoming player.

 

[coladin]

Again, made some good plays last night without anything to show for it. Terrible situation for him, personally I'm sure as he is only human and sees Colorado doing ok, Nashville with Turris producing, and his team going into the tank because their franchise player is hurt and the goalie turned into a pumpkin overnight. Tough to blame him but the optics certainly are bad.

I liked Turris, but if we are going to win the Cup, it wasn't going to be with him as a No. 1 center. And paid nearly like one and getting term like one. Just, no. He is a couple years away of looking like Jason Allison out there. Not a speedy guy and by the end of the contract, NSH will be begging off. We have had stretches like this with Turris. We have missed the playoffs with Turris. Now, all of a sudden, Turris is an All-Star?