Proposal: Drasaitil and Larsson for Marner +

[ChaoticOrange]

So he's a winger that can take faceoffs?

He plays enough C I’d call him a C that moonlights on the wing when the team needs it.

However since you’re insisting on being difficult - Better that than a winger that can’t. Like Marner.

 

[McFlyingV]

He plays enough C I’d call him a C that moonlights on the wing when the team needs it.

However since you’re insisting on being difficult - Better that than a winger that can’t. Like Marner.

Or Nylander

 

[voxel]

So he's a winger that can take faceoffs?

He's not a winger. The last thread was closed so I didn't get to respond to the ignorant last post. Draisaitl has been playing C for about 70% of career (he was Hall's C for an entire season and in his rookie year). He's played wing on McJesus for half season and a bit... but people forget the 1.5 seasons he wasn't.

 

[AvatarAang]

He plays enough C I’d call him a C that moonlights on the wing when the team needs it.

However since you’re insisting on being difficult - Better that than a winger that can’t. Like Marner.

Fair enough. So taking your point into consideration:

Drai puts up similar points as Marner while playing the majority of his shifts with the best player in the NHL, is two years older, and will probably make around 2M more than Marner after his extension.

BUT he's better at faceoffs than Marner.

I fully expect Chiarelli to get fired and the Oilers to eventually fix their garbage team, and at that point Drai will likely be more valuable than Marner.

However I think it's pretty clear who is more valuable RIGHT NOW.

 

[AvatarAang]

He's not a winger. The last thread was closed so I didn't get to respond to the ignorant last post. Draisaitl has been playing C for about 70% of career (he was Hall's C for an entire season and in his rookie year). He's played wing on McJesus for half season and a bit... but people forget the 1.5 seasons he wasn't.

Oh my mistake. So when Drai has a Hart-caliber winger on his line then he can play C.

And then he switches to W once the quality of his linemates decrease. And then once the Oilers get all but eliminated from Playoffs they switch him back to C to see if he's gotten any better.

No one has forgotten anything. He has potential to play C but it's not going to happen any time soon. He's proven he can't carry a line on his own, something elite C should be able to do. Chiarelli has screwed up the team so badly that Drai will have garbage wingers for the foreseeable future, so the chance of him playing C and producing well is not good.

Oilers fans act like it's the end of the world that Drai is an elite W. Relax he'll switch back to C eventually, but until then he's not more valuable than Marner.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Fair enough. So taking your point into consideration:

Drai puts up similar points as Marner while playing the majority of his shifts with the best player in the NHL, is two years older, and will probably make around 2M more than Marner after his extension.

BUT he's better at faceoffs than Marner.

I fully expect Chiarelli to get fired and the Oilers to eventually fix their garbage team, and at that point Drai will likely be more valuable than Marner.

However I think it's pretty clear who is more valuable RIGHT NOW.

You’re right, I think it’s pretty clear - it’s the guy that takes faceoffs, plays the PK, plays C, is trusted in key situations both offensive and defensive, on top of putting up the ‘same’ amount of points.

The people that people make the mistake of making is pretending that playing with McDavid is the be-all end-all. ‘Well Draisaitl plays with McDavid soooo’

1) not all the time. The split happened more frequently this season.
2) Draisaitl benefits from playing with Connor, but Connor benefits from playing with Drai, too.
3) Marner isn’t playing with nobodies. JVR/Kadri/Marleau/Brown are very good players in their own right. The same is not true of Lucic/Slepyshev/Caggiula/whoever. Supporting cast matters and when Drai isn’t with Connor - about half the time - his linemates are black holes.

 

[voxel]

Fair enough. So taking your point into consideration:

Drai puts up similar points as Marner while playing the majority of his shifts with the best player in the NHL, is two years older, and will probably make around 2M more than Marner after his extension.

BUT he's better at faceoffs than Marner.

I fully expect Chiarelli to get fired and the Oilers to eventually fix their garbage team, and at that point Drai will likely be more valuable than Marner.

However I think it's pretty clear who is more valuable RIGHT NOW.

40% of Marner's points on are the PP. He's really what people say he is... a soft winger who excels on the PP.

Draisaitl... as shown by his WHL play also... is an even strength beast. Pick your type of player.

 

[McNuge]

So he's a winger that can take faceoffs?

Oh my mistake. So when Drai has a Hart-caliber winger on his line then he can play C.

And then he switches to W once the quality of his linemates decrease. And then once the Oilers get all but eliminated from Playoffs they switch him back to C to see if he's gotten any better.

No one has forgotten anything. He has potential to play C but it's not going to happen any time soon. He's proven he can't carry a line on his own, something elite C should be able to do. Chiarelli has screwed up the team so badly that Drai will have garbage wingers for the foreseeable future, so the chance of him playing C and producing well is not good.

Oilers fans act like it's the end of the world that Drai is an elite W. Relax he'll switch back to C eventually, but until then he's not more valuable than Marner.

Can't carry his own line but would be the top point producer on Toronto this year in a "down" year for him.

 

[McFlyingV]

You’re right, I think it’s pretty clear - it’s the guy that takes faceoffs, plays the PK, plays C, is trusted in key situations both offensive and defensive, on top of putting up the ‘same’ amount of points.

The people that people make the mistake of making is pretending that playing with McDavid is the be-all end-all. ‘Well Draisaitl plays with McDavid soooo’

1) not all the time. The split happened more frequently this season.
2) Draisaitl benefits from playing with Connor, but Connor benefits from playing with Drai, too.
3) Marner isn’t playing with nobodies. JVR/Kadri/Marleau/Brown are very good players in their own right. The same is not true of Lucic/Slepyshev/Caggiula/whoever. Supporting cast matters and when Drai isn’t with Connor - about half the time - his linemates are black holes.

You didn't even address the defence that either player plays with. One had 2 Dmen over 50 points this season, while the other didn't have a single one even reach 30.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

You didn't even address the defence that either player plays with. One had 2 Dmen over 50 points this season, while the other didn't have a single one even reach 30.

Didn’t touch on the utter idiocy of our powerplay setup either. With an even middling powerplay Drai is looking an another ten points easily.

 

[AvatarAang]

1) not all the time. The split happened more frequently this season.
2) Draisaitl benefits from playing with Connor, but Connor benefits from playing with Drai, too.
3) Marner isn’t playing with nobodies. JVR/Kadri/Marleau/Brown are very good players in their own right. The same is not true of Lucic/Slepyshev/Caggiula/whoever. Supporting cast matters and when Drai isn’t with Connor - about half the time - his linemates are black holes.

1) he played W the majority of the season that mattered. switching him back to C when the Oiler's season was basically done is a weak argument to say he split time at W and C.

2) Well no shit McDavid is better off playing with Drai. Do you think Crosby wouldn't benefit playing with Malkin? I wonder why they split those 2 at even strength, it can't be because hockey teams are more succesfull spreading their offense. But I guess when you have two C's that can carry their lines it makes a difference, whereas the Oilers only have one C capable of doing that

3) I never said Marner is playing with nobodies. I said Drai is playing with McDavid as his C, while Marner has Kadri who HFboards is always quick to remind how bad a player he is

 

[AvatarAang]

Didn’t touch on the utter idiocy of our powerplay setup either. With an even middling powerplay Drai is looking an another ten points easily.

With McDavid as Marner's C he's looking at another 20 points easily.

Got any other hypothetical situations we can try out?

 

[Machinehead]

Who can realistically take on 12.6 without remaking their team?

 

[ChaoticOrange]

With McDavid as Marner's C he's looking at another 20 points easily.

Got any other hypothetical situations we can try out?

How many points is Mitchy boy putting up with Lucic on his LW? How about ten point Slepyshev on his right? Ryan Strome maybe?

That’s who Leon got for ~40 games.

 

[AvatarAang]

Can't carry his own line but would be the top point producer on Toronto this year in a "down" year for him.

So an elite W that plays with the best player in the NHL outscored a team that rolls their lines pretty evenly.

I'm not sure if that was supposed to be a shot at Toronto or something, but it's pretty irrelevant. Just because Drai can't carry his own line doesn't mean he can't put up points as McDavid's winger.

 

[AvatarAang]

How many points is Mitchy boy putting up with Lucic on his LW? How about ten point Slepyshev on his right? Ryan Strome maybe?

That’s who Leon got for ~40 games.

Okay so we can agree Drai can't carry a line by himself, he's not an elite C that can turn bottom 6 W into legit top 6 W. He needs legit talent on his wings or he wont succeed at C.

Thank you for finally clarifying I'm right.

 

[McNuge]

So an elite W that plays with the best player in the NHL outscored a team that rolls their lines pretty evenly.

I'm not sure if that was supposed to be a shot at Toronto or something, but it's pretty irrelevant. Just because Drai can't carry his own line doesn't mean he can't put up points as McDavid's winger.

He played with absolute trash for half the year, being put with McDavid with 10 minutes left in the third when the team is trailing doesn't mean he can't carry his own line. Just like many have already pointed out here, Lucic was straddled to him for a large portion of the year and a number of revolving wingers who shouldn't even be in the NHL. Yet, he still put up more points than anyone on the Leafs...

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Okay so we can agree Drai can't carry a line by himself, he's not an elite C that can turn bottom 6 W into legit top 6 W. He needs legit talent on his wings or he wont succeed at C.

Thank you for finally clarifying I'm right.

How many C’s can turn bottom sixers into legit top sixers? I’d say there are maybe 10. You have one. We have one. Most players in the NHL need talent to play with. If I remember right Marner started terribly and it was largely blamed on his linemates. Right?

Do you think less of Benn/Seguin or Ovechkin/Backstrom because they always play together? How about Nylander? Seems like he isn’t a great player without Matthews.

 

[King1s]

McDavid > Draisaitl > Matthews > Marner.

 

[Fourier]

1) he played W the majority of the season that mattered. switching him back to C when the Oiler's season was basically done is a weak argument to say he split time at W and C.

2) Well no **** McDavid is better off playing with Drai. Do you think Crosby wouldn't benefit playing with Malkin? I wonder why they split those 2 at even strength, it can't be because hockey teams are more succesfull spreading their offense. But I guess when you have two C's that can carry their lines it makes a difference, whereas the Oilers only have one C capable of doing that

3) I never said Marner is playing with nobodies. I said Drai is playing with McDavid as his C, while Marner has Kadri who HFboards is always quick to remind how bad a player he is

Draisaitl had 37 points in his last 39 games the vast majority of that time he was playing center away from McDavid. In addition 28 of those points were at ES. Marner had 42 ES points in 82 games this year so at a comparable pace Draisaitl would have had 59 ES points playing primarily with the likes of Jujhar Khaira and with Lucic who was in the worst slump of his career during that period.

On the whole the better players a guy plays with the more points you would expect he would get. But this is not a hard fast rule. You also have to consider the role a player has on various lines. Draisaitl at center is the focus of his line. He's the guy that controls the play and he's the guy who has the puck most of the time. When he plays with McDavid his role is more secondary. McDavid is the focus of his line and the guy everyone looks to get the puck to. This can make a difference particularly with assist totals. To give you an example of this look at Nugent-Hopkins. He played a lot with Hall and Eberle and the team's offensive numbers were much higher with the three together than they were when Nuge played away from Hall. But Nuge's actual production rate was higher without Hall than it was with Hall. This was particularly true of his assist rate. The reason for this was that when Nuge played with Hall and Eberle, Hall was the guy who had the puck most of the time and Nuge tended to play a much more defensive role. Centering his own line away from Hall he became the go-to guy.

 

[rent free]

McDavid > Draisaitl > Matthews > Marner.

No. Mcdavid>Matthews >draisaitl >marner

 

[A91]

Okay so we can agree Drai can't carry a line by himself, he's not an elite C that can turn bottom 6 W into legit top 6 W. He needs legit talent on his wings or he wont succeed at C.

Thank you for finally clarifying I'm right.

Played half the season with scrubs, had much less PP points, played 4 less games than Mitch (and spent a good amount of the games he did play recovering from post-concussion symptoms) and he STILL had a point more than Marner.

Matthews > Draisaitl > Marner

 

[Underdogoil]

If Drai was playing for the Leafs right now against Boston the Leafs would've closed them out in 6, Marner good but Leon's better.

 

[Kamiccolo]

Or Nylander

You realize that he played over 20 games at center this year, right? So ignoring your opinion on him, suggesting that he can't play center is objectively false, and you'd know that if you watched a player before criticizing them.

 

[ashenhigh]

I say no from Toronto. Edmonton says no faster. Marner and Drai are probably a wash,

All it took was the first post for me to remember why I stopped coming here....