Did Tim Murray destroy our rebuild?

[CatsforReinhart]

Pretty sure that never happened.

It was the rumor going around google it I am sure you can still find information from 2014 the detroit was offering or at least in conversation and Mantha was on the table...here is one article and go to the bottom...

Red Wings Trade Speculation: Tyler Myers

So hypothetically the Red Wings would need to give up Dylan Larkin, Tomas Jurco and afirst-rounder in exchange for Tyler Myers. That is what Ken Holland is musing over right now.

Report Red Wings implicated in trade, but is the price too high?

the trade rumor that surfaced in October(2014) has remained the same. In the proposed trade, the Sabres would be sending over their once deemed “franchise defenseman” (Tyler Myers) for Gustav Nyquist or a top prospect in Anthony Mantha.

 

[old kummelweck]

The one thing that always bugged me about TM was his hiring of Bylsma. Why did he hire him considering his reputation in Pitt?

Personally, I think it was a panic move. He thought he had Babcock for months, and so did the rest of the league. Why would you pursue a coaching job in Buffalo if there was a clear #1 candidate? Byslma was really the only brand on the market. Murray was good at talking himself into stuff, and this guy had a ring.

But if you want to go down the road of conspiracy theories, I would start with Bylsma's relationship to Pittsburgh and what role Ted Black played.

 

[TehDoak]

In looking at other rebuilds, typically the "ideal" is to pick up defense on the downswing, let the defensemen slow cook, and tear down the rest of the team so your defense will be ready to help stabilize the forward group that you get when you hit the absolute bottom.

Buffalo never did that outside of the 2013 draft when they got Risto and Zads in one draft.

We're paying the price now for negligence in drafting from 2010-2014.

It's hard to judge Murray's work because the "tank" barely worked. We finished dead last by 2 points.

I accept all of Murray's moves up until the 2015 draft because, IMHO, they were all necessary to get us Eichel.

If we didn't do the Kane trade, finish 2nd and draft Strome....we'd have O'Reilly/Strome/Reinhart down the middle.

Lehner move was...stupid. He was a known quantity at that point. Decent goalie who let in goals at bad times and struggled to close out games.

O'Reilly...was still a steal even if O'Reilly isn't the character guy we all wanted.

Going into the 2016 season...

Psysyk for Kulikov was a "side grade" that didn't work because Kulikov got into a freak accident. Either way, I thought we needed to add 2 d-men going into the year....we simply swapped 1 in.

Murray tore down well, did not build well. A good rebuild does both at the same time. Murray did one well, but not the other.

He didn't ruin in completely...because we still got Eichel. But....we're years 1-2 years behind.

 

[Der Jaeger]

In looking at other rebuilds, typically the "ideal" is to pick up defense on the downswing, let the defensemen slow cook, and tear down the rest of the team so your defense will be ready to help stabilize the forward group that you get when you hit the absolute bottom.

Buffalo never did that outside of the 2013 draft when they got Risto and Zads in one draft.

We're paying the price now for negligence in drafting from 2010-2014.

It's hard to judge Murray's work because the "tank" barely worked. We finished dead last by 2 points.

I accept all of Murray's moves up until the 2015 draft because, IMHO, they were all necessary to get us Eichel.

If we didn't do the Kane trade, finish 2nd and draft Strome....we'd have O'Reilly/Strome/Reinhart down the middle.

Lehner move was...stupid. He was a known quantity at that point. Decent goalie who let in goals at bad times and struggled to close out games.

O'Reilly...was still a steal even if O'Reilly isn't the character guy we all wanted.

Going into the 2016 season...

Psysyk for Kulikov was a "side grade" that didn't work because Kulikov got into a freak accident. Either way, I thought we needed to add 2 d-men going into the year....we simply swapped 1 in.

Murray tore down well, did not build well. A good rebuild does both at the same time. Murray did one well, but not the other.

He didn't ruin in completely...because we still got Eichel. But....we're years 1-2 years behind.

The idea behind the Kane trade was acquiring a hurt winger which would seal last place. Solid logic. But in reality, the Sabres played better after the trade. Could've kept Myers and gotten the same result.

 

[CatsforReinhart]

The idea behind the Kane trade was acquiring a hurt winger which would seal last place. Solid logic. But in reality, the Sabres played better after the trade. Could've kept Myers and gotten the same result.

It is false logic....he could of gotten a blue chip prospect and a 1st and we would be stacked and would also not have hurt the teams chances. That is what a rebuild is for.

 

[Der Jaeger]

It is false logic....he could of gotten a blue chip prospect and a 1st and we would be stacked and would also not have hurt the teams chances. That is what a rebuild is for.

We might be writing about different things.

When Murray made the Kane trade, the Sabres were coming off of a winless January and the team lost 14 straight games. The trade happened on February 11th, and the team was 2-3 off their last five games post-14 game losing streak.

In that time, Myers was one of the better players on the team, matching up against top lines. His scoring wasn't there, but that wasn't what Nolan was asking him to do. Stafford wasn't doing much, but he was still a veteran winger and a pending UFA.

In return, Murray got Kane, who was hurt at the time and could not play until the next season. Bogosian had done nothing all year for the Jets, and was scoreless in ten games prior to the trade. He also had scoreless streaks of 6 and 7 games for the Jets that season.

The idea behind the trade was to move a contributing defender in Myers and an UFA winger in Stafford for a slumping defender in Bogosian, and a winger in Kane who could not effect the remainder of the season. As the season wound down, the Oilers and Coyotes were VERY close in the standings to the Sabres. This was a tank move.

Bogosian came of Buffalo and contributed less than Myers on the scoreboard, but stabilized the backend for the remainder of the season. Prior to the trade, the Sabres lost by 3 goals or more 22 times in 55 games. Aside from winning 10 of 13 games in November and December, the Sabres were terrible.

After Bogosian was acquired, the Sabres lost by 3 goals or more 4 times in 27 games. Their record was about the same as prior to the trade.

So, Murray made the trade in an attempt to lock up last place. In reality, games got a lot tighter for the team after the trade. Murray could've just traded Stafford and let the season ride out. According to the game trends, Sabres still would've finished with the worse record.

 

[Dreakon13]

We might be writing about different things.

When Murray made the Kane trade, the Sabres were coming off of a winless January and the team lost 14 straight games. The trade happened on February 11th, and the team was 2-3 off their last five games post-14 game losing streak.

In that time, Myers was one of the better players on the team, matching up against top lines. His scoring wasn't there, but that wasn't what Nolan was asking him to do. Stafford wasn't doing much, but he was still a veteran winger and a pending UFA.

In return, Murray got Kane, who was hurt at the time and could not play until the next season. Bogosian had done nothing all year for the Jets, and was scoreless in ten games prior to the trade. He also had scoreless streaks of 6 and 7 games for the Jets that season.

The idea behind the trade was to move a contributing defender in Myers and an UFA winger in Stafford for a slumping defender in Bogosian, and a winger in Kane who could not effect the remainder of the season. As the season wound down, the Oilers and Coyotes were VERY close in the standings to the Sabres. This was a tank move.

Bogosian came of Buffalo and contributed less than Myers on the scoreboard, but stabilized the backend for the remainder of the season. Prior to the trade, the Sabres lost by 3 goals or more 22 times in 55 games. Aside from winning 10 of 13 games in November and December, the Sabres were terrible.

After Bogosian was acquired, the Sabres lost by 3 goals or more 4 times in 27 games. Their record was about the same as prior to the trade.

So, Murray made the trade in an attempt to lock up last place. In reality, games got a lot tighter for the team after the trade. Murray could've just traded Stafford and let the season ride out. According to the game trends, Sabres still would've finished with the worse record.

I absolutely believe there could've been tank implications in that move... but at the same time, Kane and Bogo were both physical, skilled, big bodied skaters in need of a change of scenery, that lined up with Murray's vision of a "tough to play against" team like LA or Boston, better than softer wingers like Armia and Stafford anyways (who was also a UFA as you said). Myers was the cost of doing business.

To argue it was solely for tank purposes is as daft as the people who claim it had no bearing on the decision.

 

[Der Jaeger]

I absolutely believe there could've been tank implications in that move... but at the same time, Kane and Bogo were both physical, skilled, big bodied skaters in need of a change of scenery, that lined up with Murray's vision of a "tough to play against" team like LA or Boston, better than softer wingers like Armia and Stafford anyways (who was also a UFA as you said). Myers was the cost of doing business.

To argue it was solely for tank purposes is as daft as the people who claim it had no bearing on the decision.

I didn't say it was solely for tank purposes. But when the best player in the trade, Kane, cannot contribute to the remainder of the season due to injury, that works out really well for a team trying to lose. You help ensure you lose out and get talented heavy winger in the process. At the time, it was a very smart and shrewd move.

 

[ZZamboni]

I didn't say it was solely for tank purposes. But when the best player in the trade, Kane, cannot contribute to the remainder of the season due to injury, that works out really well for a team trying to lose. You help ensure you lose out and get talented heavy winger in the process. At the time, it was a very smart and shrewd move.

Bingo.

But people want to rage and forget all the circumstances and reasons why it was a smart and shrewd move.

To answer the overall questions .... I think "destroyed" is a dramatic description of TM's time here. So no, i don't think TM zomg destroyed the rebuild.

 

[WeDislikeEich]

Murray's rebuild is looking worse and worse as you start to see what the picks he traded away are turning into for other teams.

The 2nd round pick he traded for Josh Gorges turned into Alex DeBrincat.

The 1st he traded for Lehner could have been Brock Boeser

(both the players above are in the running for rookie scoring leaders, although obviously there's no guarantee we'd have drafted them)

One of our three 2nd round picks in 2014 could have been Brandon Montour (who looks like a legit good top 4 d man for Anaheim).

The list goes on...

Had he just kept the picks and drafted with them, we'd likely be in better shape right now.

What's done is done. But I just can't help but feel that the Sabres blew a golden opportunity to really build a powerhouse young team.
Darcy was amassing a stockpile of picks that hadn't been seen in quite some time in the NHL. IIRC we were on pace to have close to the most draft picks in decades. You obviously have to hit on those picks, but still...

I blame Pegula the most though. He aborted the rebuild barely 1 year in when he fired Darcy and hired guys who wanted to speed things up.

 

[TehDoak]

Murray's rebuild is looking worse and worse as you start to see what the picks he traded away are turning into for other teams.

The 2nd round pick he traded for Josh Gorges turned into Alex DeBrincat.

The 1st he traded for Lehner could have been Brock Boeser

(both the players above are in the running for rookie scoring leaders, although obviously there's no guarantee we'd have drafted them)

One of our three 2nd round picks in 2014 could have been Brandon Montour (who looks like a legit good top 4 d man for Anaheim).

The list goes on...

Had he just kept the picks and drafted with them, we'd likely be in better shape right now.

What's done is done. But I just can't help but feel that the Sabres blew a golden opportunity to really build a powerhouse young team.
Darcy was amassing a stockpile of picks that hadn't been seen in quite some time in the NHL. IIRC we were on pace to have close to the most draft picks in decades. You obviously have to hit on those picks, but still...

I blame Pegula the most though. He aborted the rebuild barely 1 year in when he fired Darcy and hired guys who wanted to speed things up.

It's impossible to look at certain draft picks that were traded and say "this guy selected here is great now"

It's highly likely we wouldn't have selected the same player.

You also need to consider the contract limit when it comes to draft picks as well.

We had 3x 2nd rounders (which we used) in 2014

We had 3x 1st rounders and 2x 2nd rounders at one point in 2015.

That's 4x 1st rounders and 5x 2nd rounders in 2 years. Sure, some of those won't make the big show, but you'd likely be unable to keep all of those players.

Given our prospect pool was rather stacked, it made sense to spend some of those assets on NHL ready players rather than take the picks.

We obviously disagree with WHAT players they got (specifically with Lehner), I think it moving a few of those picks made sense, even if we didn't like the deals that were made.

 

[dotcommunism]

It was the rumor going around google it I am sure you can still find information from 2014 the detroit was offering or at least in conversation and Mantha was on the table...here is one article and go to the bottom...

Red Wings Trade Speculation: Tyler Myers

So hypothetically the Red Wings would need to give up Dylan Larkin, Tomas Jurco and afirst-rounder in exchange for Tyler Myers. That is what Ken Holland is musing over right now.

Report Red Wings implicated in trade, but is the price too high?

the trade rumor that surfaced in October(2014) has remained the same. In the proposed trade, the Sabres would be sending over their once deemed “franchise defenseman” (Tyler Myers) for Gustav Nyquist or a top prospect in Anthony Mantha.

There was never any indication whatsoever that Detroit was willing to part with Mantha or Larkin plus a 1st for Myers. The links you provide do not indicate they were willing to pay that price either. In fact they indicate the exact opposite. The high prices from Detroit for Myers were some combination of 1) what the Sabres ask was and 2) media/fan speculation on what the price required would be from the Sabres end. There is absolutely no indication that Murray passed on some big Detroit deal then made the Winnipeg trade. All signs point to Murray asking for the big deal from Detroit and Detroit not being interested in the price.

 

[CatsforReinhart]

There was never any indication whatsoever that Detroit was willing to part with Mantha or Larkin plus a 1st for Myers. The links you provide do not indicate they were willing to pay that price either. In fact they indicate the exact opposite. The high prices from Detroit for Myers were some combination of 1) what the Sabres ask was and 2) media/fan speculation on what the price required would be from the Sabres end. There is absolutely no indication that Murray passed on some big Detroit deal then made the Winnipeg trade. All signs point to Murray asking for the big deal from Detroit and Detroit not being interested in the price.

Would you like me to look more? That was in 30 seconds....I am sure we can find more if you like or you could unless you are too lazy to look yourself and just shoot down I guess that is easier.

 

[dotcommunism]

Would you like me to look more? That was in 30 seconds....I am sure we can find more if you like or you could unless you are too lazy to look yourself and just shoot down I guess that is easier.

Guess what, I remember the reports too. Detroit never offered those guys for Myers, it was just Sabres fans hoping they'd be able to get them. If you can provide any evidence to the contrary, go ahead, but so far all you've provided just underlines that those guys were never available.

 

[brian_griffin]

I absolutely believe there could've been tank implications in that move... but at the same time, Kane and Bogo were both physical, skilled, big bodied skaters in need of a change of scenery, that lined up with Murray's vision of a "tough to play against" team like LA or Boston, better than softer wingers like Armia and Stafford anyways (who was also a UFA as you said). Myers was the cost of doing business.

To argue it was solely for tank purposes is as daft as the people who claim it had no bearing on the decision.

Tank purposes / reasons >>>> Future team playing style reasons > Other reasons.

Would you like me to look more? That was in 30 seconds....I am sure we can find more if you like or you could unless you are too lazy to look yourself and just shoot down I guess that is easier.

Politely noting the onus is on you to support your assertion the Red Wing front office was offering the package and Murray turned it down (not for others to prove your assertion wrong).

Not that Detroit fans were offering / speculating such a package.

Not that Buffalo was asking that package from Detroit, and Detroit balked.

[Although I freely admit you may be right, but it may not be possible to prove because definitive sources / proof may not be, or may no longer be available.]

 

[zbubble]

I blame Pegula the most though. He aborted the rebuild barely 1 year in when he fired Darcy and hired guys who wanted to speed things up.

I think Pegula was forced by the 19,00 fans who were chanting "Fire Darcy" during games. From the moment Darcy uttered the word "suffering," the season ticket holders were the ones saying abort. I think he would have preferred to leave him in charge, but relented to an angry fan base. That's just my take.

 

[sabrebuild]

Ror trade was a must due. Guys his impact and age don’t come available. You had to do it and I shudder to think what the team looks like without him.

But every other move was flawed when the focus wasn’t loading up on defense.

Hated the Lehner move for giving up a quality asset for an unknown at a replaceable position.

Same thing for the Myers deal. Why prioritize a winger like Kane when you already believe you will have Center stacked? That should have been a deal for a defensive improvement or for futures.

 

[Chainshot]

Ror trade was a must due. Guys his impact and age don’t come available. You had to do it and I shudder to think what the team looks like without him.

But every other move was flawed when the focus wasn’t loading up on defense.

Hated the Lehner move for giving up a quality asset for an unknown at a replaceable position.

Same thing for the Myers deal. Why prioritize a winger like Kane when you already believe you will have Center stacked? That should have been a deal for a defensive improvement or for futures.

How many times does the Kane-Bogosian deal need to be rehashed? They dealt Myers and futures to get an injured scoring line winger and a Myers replacement. The biggest piece in the deal was Kane and him not being able to play helped insure their eventual draft position. Myers for Bogosian is still relatively a wash and the additional parts given up in the deal have not out performed Kane collectively, let alone individually. Center was not stacked, nor was McEichel secured when that deal was made.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

I think Pegula was forced by the 19,00 fans who were chanting "Fire Darcy" during games. From the moment Darcy uttered the word "suffering," the season ticket holders were the ones saying abort. I think he would have preferred to leave him in charge, but relented to an angry fan base. That's just my take.

The optics of the Regier tank were worse than what got Sam Hinkie fired. He had made his own bed.

 

[Djp]

Where to start...

he did the 2014-2016 draft with them picking high. You can't blame him for Rochester. 14 abd 15 top pick go to buffalo. 14 chl players start ahl last year.

Buffalo had drafted Dmen with myers, mcnabb, pysyk, mccabe, risto, and zads when he took over.

Myers didn't fit his style so he git Bogosian

Pysyk would have been picked in the expansion draft. He rolls the dice thinking he can get a young ufa to wit then resign after the expansion draft. Kulikov gets injured early and isn't his full potential all season.

They traded Zads for ROR.

He turned what he got for McGinn for a shot at vesey.

He trades a UFA, armia, Lemieux, and a late 1st for kane. The return on Kane is probably is close to that in a 1st and 2 more pieces.

Of ROR is traded the return would be darn close to zads 2nd and girgs. In 1st, top prospect, and a 2nd/good prospect.

He traded 21st for Lehner who had 4 yrs of team control ahead. It takes a goalie 5 yrs after draft to even show up at nhl. This was a fast forward.

Let's not forget he slso did the Miller trade which brought in a 1st, 3rd, Stewart , and Carrier. If st louis advanced/resigned the 3rd become a 1st.

The mcnabb for Fasching is still undecided.

 

[RhinosLastFan]

It's been said, but think it needs to be reiterated:

GMTM set us back, but by getting a player like Eichel, we are much better off and still have some good prospects (Mittsy, Nylander, Guhle) yet to come. May need to recycle some "older" players like Kane, but outside of that we're still going to be getting better moving forward.

I have faith in "the Bottering Ram".

 

[Moskau]

They were taking Samsonov with the Lehner pick. Murray basically came out and said as much. They weren't taking Boeser, they weren't taking White. And the same people bitching we traded that pick for Lehner would today be bitching we took a goalie with the pick. And in 5 years they would be bitching we didn't take Aho or Dunn or how could Tim Murray be so stupid to let Nutivaara drop to the 7th round.

 

[Icicle]

The only trade that was really inexcusable was the 1st for Lehner. Everything else, people just keep leaving the context out. Myers has been injured just as much as Bogosian since the trade. He traded a bunch of busts for players that aren't. I take ROR for Zadorov and Compher any day. He did get rid of probably a couple too many 2nd round picks that really could've helped right now with bottom-6 depth, but he picked his 'heavy' guys for the system he wanted then. The Kane trade isn't necessarily over; Armia and Lemiux are nothing to cry about, and we may end up with those picks and comparable prospects if Kane is traded anyway. Losing Pysyk would've happened in the expansion draft anyway, and as much as I loved Carrier and hated losing him, that's a gamble that was lost because the damn rink couldn't fix a damn door problem and nearly killed one of our guys because of it.

 

[5 Minute Major]

I don’t think the trades have hurt as much as the UFA signings.

Okposo and Moulson. Not good.

I think if we had our current team, minus those two as well as the cap space, things wouldn’t look so awful.

It seems since Pegula took over that the philosophy is if you have money to spend you better spend it.

 

[Jame]

Bylsma ruined the rebuild.
He brought a terrible system, incompetent in game management, and allowed a toxic locker room to emerge.

Murray can shoulder his share of the blame for Bylsma.... but his roster moves, draft picks, contracts all pale in comparison to that mistake.