Did Kadri develop because of good Leafs player management/development or despite it?

[Daisy Jane]

oh my lord.

Shanahan and Lamoriello and Babcock saw Kadri as part of their future. they also said if he didn't smarten up, he wouldn't be. both were said, and I feel both were said at face value. so the sooner both parties can accept that these were the options presented we can move on. geeze marie.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Polak (page 3)

I don't like him. He takes selfish stick infractions, his being overly physical leads to penalties and suspensions, and he plays the game on auto-pilot. Our PK is better without him and his being on the roster takes a spot away from a hard-working AHLer. Absolute bum.

Marner (Page 4)

he is the poster boy for sense of entitlement .....connor brown deserves way more ice time ,that was a very weak and selfish play by marner ,no more excuses about being small .
pony up or sit his azz down ..sorry for the rant ,but he deffinatley is feeling it this year ,hes being hit and he is shy ,vince dunn made him his biotch

Gardiner (Page 7)

Somebody needs to hit Gardiner in the face there is no need to take that penalty none that is a selfish, gutless play

I think that more then proves my point. During all those pages the usual group of Kadri supporters keep grinding into dust the fact that people dared to suggest Kadri made a selfish play, continually making snide comment about Kadri being selfish.

I couldn't find the Gardiner quote for some reason but I did fine the other two, thanks. They were both in PGT's which I rarely visit and when I do, it's usually the day after when people have calmed down and I never read through the entire thread. Had I seen the post calling Gardiner gutless and selfish I would have said something for sure. Would only add that these quotes are a good example of why I generally avoid these game threads.

I don't think any of our players should be called selfish and if and when I see them being described as such I would absolutely stick up for them. And as I have said earlier, I have stuck for other players in the past, Kessel, Phaneuf, Bozak, Reimer and Bernier immediately come to mind. Many of our players have bee unfairly maligned over the years, sometimes they deserve criticism but when they are unfairly abused, I stick up for all of them. I hope that helps.

 

[IPS]

Pookie, name all these players with off ice excess issues that ended their careers early.

Or are you giving a general statement just so it sticks?

I'm still waiting for Patrik Kane's issues to end his career early.

Patrick Kane timeline: Current case and other incidents for Blackhawks star

You heard the man Pookie, let's see 'em.

 

[Pookie]

oh my lord.

Shanahan and Lamoriello and Babcock saw Kadri as part of their future. they also said if he didn't smarten up, he wouldn't be. both were said, and I feel both were said at face value. so the sooner both parties can accept that these were the options presented we can move on. geeze marie.

I totally accept that Daisy. It was within the article and quote that I referenced.

What is both sad and highly amusing is that he attributes both the Globe and Mail article, Shanahan’s quotes and Lou Lamoriello’s quote to me.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Sad. Just turn off the computer and think you are right.

No crossroads. No decision to make. No need to involve his parents. Lupul? Who knows. No off ice excess. No life changes.

When Shanahan said he had decisions to make (want a quote?), his future as a Leaf was a given? His crossroads was really about playing forward or goalie?

Nice to see others are seeing this for what it really is.

Shanahan said in no uncertain terms that Kadri is a big part of our future. Not who knows, or maybe, he stated it as a simple fact. You only pay attention to the quotes that fit your agenda which shows that you are in denial, good luck with that.

Pookie, name all these players with off ice excess issues that ended their careers early.

Or are you giving a general statement just so it sticks?

I'm still waiting for Patrik Kane's issues to end his career early.

Patrick Kane timeline: Current case and other incidents for Blackhawks star

I'm still waiting for examples myself, Daisy also made this claim and has also yet to back it up.

Evander Kane is still going strong too, quelle surprise.

oh my lord.

Shanahan and Lamoriello and Babcock saw Kadri as part of their future. they also said if he didn't smarten up, he wouldn't be
both were said, and I feel both were said at face value. so the sooner both parties can accept that was the options presented we can move on. geeze marie.

"oh my lord", "geeze marie" - can we do without the histrionics?

You should address your post to Pookie as he's the one who's been offering up this quote as if it proves that Kadri might not be "an NHL player". Most of us have taken the view that ond-off quotes to the media shouldn't be taken so literally, would you agree?

And by the way when Shanahan said that Kadri was a big part of the future, he stated it as fact, not "an option".

 

[Pookie]

Pookie, name all these players with off ice excess issues that ended their careers early.

Or are you giving a general statement just so it sticks?

I'm still waiting for Patrik Kane's issues to end his career early.

Patrick Kane timeline: Current case and other incidents for Blackhawks star

You mean names like Ribiero? Richards? Stoll? Lupul? Setoguchi? Go back a few years, Derek Sanderson? John Kordic?

I can’t believe that you have to ask whether drugs and/or alcohol has ruined careers of athletes and that you can’t think of examples. Let alone the personal lives of athletes and non athletes alike.

This is your counter?

 

[Daisy Jane]

You mean names like Ribiero? Richards? Stoll? Lupul? Setoguchi? Go back a few years, Derek Sanderson? John Kordic?

I can’t believe that you have to ask whether drugs and/or alcohol has ruined careers of athletes and that you can’t think of examples. Let alone the personal lives of athletes and non athletes alike.

This is your counter?

Cheechoo too right?

 

[Pookie]

Cheechoo too right?

List is huge. And not everyone is public about it either.

 

[wmark]

You mean names like Ribiero? Richards? Stoll? Lupul? Setoguchi? Go back a few years, Derek Sanderson? John Kordic?

I can’t believe that you have to ask whether drugs and/or alcohol has ruined careers of athletes and that you can’t think of examples. Let alone the personal lives of athletes and non athletes alike.

This is your counter?

These are your examples?

Mike Ribiero has played professional hockey for 18 years.

Mike Richards: Played professional hockey for 11 years, is that your example of an early career?

Jarrett Stoll: Played professional hockey for about 13 years is this your example of an early career?

Joffrey Lupul: Played professional hockey for 13 years is this your example of an early career?

There are players who don't live in excess and still have short NHL careers.

There isn't a correlation with living in "excess" and a short career as you suggest.

How could Jeff Carter still be in the NHL when he was living in "excess" with Mike Richards?

According to you, players with “off ice excess” issues end their careers early ALL THE TIME.

 

[Pookie]

There isn't a correlation with living in "excess" and a short career as you suggest.

Sigh

 

[wmark]

Sigh

It's the same sound I make when I read your posts.

 

[IPS]

Sigh

So we'll take this as your admission of being wrong?

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

I couldn't find the Gardiner quote for some reason but I did fine the other two, thanks. They were both in PGT's which I rarely visit and when I do, it's usually the day after when people have calmed down and I never read through the entire thread. Had I seen the post calling Gardiner gutless and selfish I would have said something for sure. Would only add that these quotes are a good example of why I generally avoid these game threads.

I don't think any of our players should be called selfish and if and when I see them being described as such I would absolutely stick up for them. And as I have said earlier, I have stuck for other players in the past, Kessel, Phaneuf, Bozak, Reimer and Bernier immediately come to mind. Many of our players have bee unfairly maligned over the years, sometimes they deserve criticism but when they are unfairly abused, I stick up for all of them. I hope that helps.

I don't consider you one of the people I refer to as Kadri zealots, you're impassioned and we disagree at times but that's just part of a spirited conversation. You're also consistent in my experience you react the same way regardless of who a player is, you have a strange feud with Pookie but that's between the two of you.

 

[Pookie]

It's the same sound I make when I read your posts.

IF you deny that “excess” has had significant negative impact on athletes and non atheletes then there really is no point in reading my posts. There is nothing to discuss. Hope the mind opens up sometime.

 

[IPS]

I don't consider you one of the people I refer to as Kadri zealots, you're impassioned ,and we disagree at times but that's just part of a spirited conversation. You're also consistent in my experience you react the same way regardless of who a player is, you have a strange feud with Pookie but that's between the two of you.

I see one poster who takes pride in arguing honestly and one poster who goes out their way argue dishonestly at every turn. If he stopped pretending he didn't have an agenda against Kadri, I wouldn't even care.

 

[IPS]

IF you deny that “excess” has had significant negative impact on athletes and non atheletes then there really is no point in reading my posts. There is nothing to discuss. Hope the mind opens up sometime.

You are aware of the injury history of those players and how "excess" can very easily go hand-in-hand with it right?

Or is that not convenient enough for you to address?

 

[Gary Nylund]

These are your examples?

Mike Ribiero has played professional hockey for 18 years.

Mike Richards: Played professional hockey for 11 years, is that your example of an early career?

Jarrett Stoll: Played professional hockey for about 13 years is this your example of an early career?

Joffrey Lupul: Played professional hockey for 13 years is this your example of an early career?

There are players who don't live in excess and still have short NHL careers.

There isn't a correlation with living in "excess" and a short career as you suggest.

I can't stop laughing at that one.

So we'll take this as your admission of being wrong?

He's good at being wrong, terrible at admitting it. In fact I've never ever as in not even once seen him admit to being wrong about anything.

 

[kindalaidback]

 

[wmark]

Jarrett Stoll: Played professional hockey for about

IF you deny that “excess” has had significant negative impact on athletes and non atheletes then there really is no point in reading my posts. There is nothing to discuss. Hope the mind opens up sometime.

Pookie, according to you they ALL end their careers early. Not sometimes but ALL the time.

I showed you they do not all end their careers early.

*Points to Mike Riberio (This was your rebuttal not mine)

Do you think an 18 year professional hockey career is short?

It's about your assertions you make. They don't fact check.

I'm still waiting for the Mike Riberio explanation.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

I see one poster who takes pride in arguing honestly and one poster who goes out their way argue dishonestly at every turn. If he stopped pretending he didn't have an agenda against Kadri, I wouldn't even care.

I'm just saying his interactions with Pookie are between the two of them. It doesn't matter to me whose right or wrong it's just an aberration compared to how he usually posts, which is what I was referring to in my post.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don't consider you one of the people I refer to as Kadri zealots, you're impassioned and we disagree at times but that's just part of a spirited conversation. You're also consistent in my experience you react the same way regardless of who a player is, you have a strange feud with Pookie but that's between the two of you.

Thank you, I appreciate that. There was an excellent post recently by someone (Tone Dog) that said something like "I always have time for passionate Leaf fans", I couldn't agree more. And to me, the most enjoyable discussions here are when people disagree passionately but stay respectful. This can be a beautiful place.

As far as Pookie is concerned, this might surprise you but at times I have quoted Pookie and said that I strongly agree with him. I hold no grudges, period. But at the same time, if keeps repeating the same nonsense about Kadri I will keep sticking up for him for the simple reason that I assume that new people join here every day and they don't know the history. I'd rather they not have the impression that people can spew nonsense without being called on it.

Kadri's "crossroads" happened 3 years ago. When the poster constantly appears in Kadri threads and almost never wants to discuss anything other than this old news then that speaks for itself. And I will remind everyone that he already has admitted he has a bias against Kadri as much as he would like people forget that and pretend like he's objective.

If you can convince Pookie to stop with this argument that Kadri was on the verge of being out of the NHL, I'm pretty sure these threads won't keep getting closed.

Pookie - it's been 3 years man. I think we all know where you stand and you've admitted your bias, how about giving it a rest?

I see one poster who takes pride in arguing honestly and one poster who goes out their way argue dishonestly at every turn. If he stopped pretending he didn't have an agenda against Kadri, I wouldn't even care.

Thanks, I do take pride in that!

Awesome quote. I've said it many times, I love listening to Babcock speak!

 

[thewave]

OP, there is not really a black or white answer. Kadri developed while having a combination of good and bad managers with some years having exceptionally bad management and others having exceptionally good. He performed at the start quite well considering having bad management. He then performed worse but turned it around under good management. There are other factors though, age and maturity and how he felt about his prospects as a Leaf. How about mid level management, maybe they were doing good work by him and it just didn't show. Carlyle's usage could have been a problem even.

I guess you could say he weathered the elements and made good use of the positives afforded him along the way. He never completely derailed but came close. Given fair opportunity for his skill, he has performed or exceeded expectations.

 

[Menzinger]

This thread had continued to head ever deeper into the absurd.

So now Kadri was a hair away from ending is NHL career? Lol

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

OP, there is not really a black or white answer. Kadri developed while having a combination of good and bad managers with some years having exceptionally bad management and others having exceptionally good. He performed at the start quite well considering having bad management. He then performed worse but turned it around under good management. There are other factors though, age and maturity and how he felt about his prospects as a Leaf. How about mid level management, maybe they were doing good work by him and it just didn't show. Carlyle's usage could have been a problem even.

I guess you could say he weathered the elements and made good use of the positives afforded him along the way. He never completely derailed but came close. Given fair opportunity for his skill, he has performed or exceeded expectations.

Reasoned and nuanced post about Kadri, well said.

 

[IBeL34f]

This is like his career in a nutshell for me - He was always going to be a fine producer who could stick around in the NHL for quite some time just based on his natural abilities. However, he also always had the potential for so much more than that, and simply needed help figuring out how to put everything together.

Kadri's always struck me as someone who's grown up with a chip on their shoulder, someone with a lot to prove (both to himself and possibly his detractors) - That feistiness was always going to provide the drive required for him to be a competent player in the NHL, and his natural skill would make up the rest. But, to be a truly elite player, he had work to do, and he needed the right people to support him and help him develop that aspect of his game. Those people were not all always in place early on in his career, but they definitely seem to be now.

The people who acknowledge that he turned things around, at least on a mental level, are certainly right, but so are those who acknowledged that he was always a special talent and supported him early on in his career when he was struggling to carve out his role on the team - He was always a good player doing a lot of the right things on the ice, he just needed help putting everything together and becoming a consistent threat over all 200' of the rink.

To try and pretend like he was reprogrammed into a completely new player, or to try and pretend that he hasn't come a long way since Babcock and Shanahan got their hands on him, is disingenuous, and reeks of trying more to win an argument than trying to understand the development and growth of a real-live human being. We've seen both of those arguments around here in the past, and I just hope we're done with them so we can all simply enjoy how good Kadri is.