Did Kadri develop because of good Leafs player management/development or despite it?

[Bluelines]

Ok.

You are hired as my life coach.

I’d like to paint an IKEA bookcase in an Orangey-Reddish colour.... maybe a Delicious Citrus Merlot? What do you think?

Just need to build it with a crooked piece of metal

The sarcasm is strong in you young HF Jedi.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Do people seriously think that Kadri's off-ice partying issues would have killed his NHL career right away? I'm sure his career with the Leafs would be over under Lou and Babs, but I think it would be insane to think he would have passed waivers / no NHL team would want to sign him. That's some crazy revisionist history. At most, it would have reduced his overall career length by a few years.

Even before turning it around, Kadri was a top 6 forward. It is worth discussing whether a newfound professionalism helped him take that last step to being the two-way 30-30 player he is today, but it's not even debatable that he'd be out of the league otherwise. He was always a good offensive player, unless you subscribe to a certain theory that his off-ice issues would make his shooting percentage decline every year without having an impact on anything else in his game.

 

[diceman934]

saying he took a dumb penalty is not attacking Kadri. good grief.

Good grief. That is exactly what it is!

Calling a person dumb and or selfish is not a compliment....it is plainly an attack!

 

[Bluelines]

Good grief. That is exactly what it is!

Calling a person dumb and or selfish is not a compliment....it is plainly an attack!

Interesting... do you believe that good people can do bad and evil people can do good?

 

[Gary Nylund]

At no point did a single penalty Kadri took generate hundreds of post on the Leafs board attacking him.

I assume you can link said thread that shows pretty much the entire active board criticizing him?

I can't be bothered searching the archives bit it seems others do remember that thread.

note how i am phrasing this.
Kadri took a dumb, selfish penalty.
that was exactly how it was said, and how it was phrased throughout the entire thread.

you can imagine who, got incensed because for whatever reason they assumed people were calling Kadri dumb and selfish. no matter how many people explained that wasn't the case, and explained the situation, oh no. how dare you call Kadri selfish (which no one did) he is so awesome and amazing, and blah blah blah blah blah. ignoring the fact that countless other players in that situation have been called the same thing (ie: bad penalty, dumb penalty, selfish penalty). and that did not mean that Kadri was dumb or selfish. hell.

Everyone agreed that it was a dumb penalty. Some of us didn't agree with the word "selfish" being used and that's when some people got upset - oh no, how dare you not agree with the use of the word selfish blah blah blah blah.

I personally can't recall the word "selfish" being used to describe the actions of any other Leaf players this season so I'm going to ask you - can you provide any examples? You did say "countless other players" so it shouldn't be too hard to name at least one or two.

You were asked earlier (more than once) to provide examples of players who had washed out in the prime of their careers (again I believe you said that there were many, can't remember if you used the word countless or not), you have ignored the request. Are you going to ignore this request as well?

It’s almost like there’s a small group of extremely vocal posters who like to project their behaviour on anyone who dares call them out.

Yeah I remember that, so much conversation. Had that been anyone else it’s a page or two of stupid penalty comments and we move on.

Sure, had it been anyone else, the word selfish would never have been used. But when it's Kadri, oh boy. Any adjectives are OK apparently and god forbid anyone should object, then we're in for multiple pages of posts explaining how the word "selfish" applies. It's almost like Kadri is the only player who elicits such criticism, I wonder why that is?

Do people seriously think that Kadri's off-ice partying issues would have killed his NHL career right away? I'm sure his career with the Leafs would be over under Lou and Babs, but I think it would be insane to think he would have passed waivers / no NHL team would want to sign him. That's some crazy revisionist history. At most, it would have reduced his overall career length by a few years.

Kadri's talent was pretty recognizable early in his Leafs career. He was our best center during the dark ages where somehow Bozak got that role. He's added a lot of defensive qualities to his game that have made him a valuable all-around center, and that can be credited to Babcock giving him the opportunity to do that.

Exactly. That's exactly what I said earlier - partying could shorten his career, that is entirely logical as if you don't take care of your body, it will wear down sooner. But the idea that his career could come to an abrupt end when he's in his prime is ridiculous. And of course Lou could decide that Kadri has no future as a Maple Leaf but he doesn't have the authority to forbid other teams from signing him so Pookie's idea that that quote proves anything is absurd.

saying he took a dumb penalty is not attacking Kadri. good grief.

Again, everyone agreed it was a dumb penalty. Everyone! That's why it's flipping tiring (to again borrow your phrase) to keep reading this nonsense about how Kadri can do no wrong and can't be criticized because people will defend him no matter what. This is simply not true and that incident proves it.

Again, I haven't seen the word used selfish used to describe the action of any other Leafs this season so if you can't find provide any such examples, perhaps you will have the grace to admit you were wrong? And if so, maybe then you can ponder why it is only Kadri who's actions get labelled as selfish.

Hundreds of posts is about 10 pages of posts at minimum I highly doubt there’s 10 pages of people criticizing Kadri.

I didn't count the posts but the discussion went on for days so I think it could have been hundreds.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Even before turning it around, Kadri was a top 6 forward. It is worth discussing whether a newfound professionalism helped him take that last step to being the two-way 30-30 player he is today, but it's not even debatable that he'd be out of the league otherwise. He was always a good offensive player, unless you subscribe to a certain theory that his off-ice issues would make his shooting percentage decline every year without having an impact on anything else in his game.

Exactly this. I believe he benefited from being suspended and Babcock has been great for him but it's also possible he would have gotten to where he is today on his own, he certainly wouldn't be the first player to play at a high level despite having bad habits off the ice.

We all know who started this ridiculous narrative that Kadri was on the verge of his career being over and it's nothing more than a pathetic attempt to justify his admittedly biased attacks on Kadri over the years.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Good grief. That is exactly what it is!

Calling a person dumb and or selfish is not a compliment....it is plainly an attack!

here. let me help you out.

Suzie is dumb.
this is someone saying that Suzie is dumb.

Suzie made a dumb mistake.
this is someone saying that Suzie did something dumb.

Suzie made a dumb mistake, therefore this shows that Suzie is dumb.
this infers that the person is saying both the action and the person is dumb.



If you want to say calling someone dumb is an attack that's fine. I'm not going to argue with you. but that's not the argument we're having.

What some people want to argue, including you - is that describing the action as dumb is an attack. Which is not.


if people can't see the difference between the three- or more importantly if people want to see that the 2nd example equals the first, or assumes that the third example is what people actually meant, then quite frankly that's on you and whomever feels that way because that's not what's being said and to me this means the conversation is over, because i don't see the point in discussing something where people are attacking you for having an opinion over action when they are convinced you are attacking the person doing the action.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Wtf does being a current NHLer have to do with anything? Being at a crossroads is about where your future will be.

As for NHL or not, you and Lou disagree. Not surprising. Lou has extensive experience and insight and well...

You do realize you are arguing with those that issued the quotes and not me right? Like I don’t hang around the team or have any intimate knowledge of the situation. Like you.

We just have to rely on what people close to the situation, including the GM, President, journalists who don’t want to sued for libel, Kadri himself and his parents say about it.

You've been strangely silent on the subject of quotes ever since I posted the quote from the President of the Toronto Maple Leafs who clearly and unambiguously stated that Kadri was "a big part" of the Maple Leafs future.

Did you miss the quote or are you busy writing a letter to the president informing him of the error of his ways? Some of us have always said that it makes no sense to take one-off quotes as gospel, perhaps you'd like to come over to our side instead?

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

I can't be bothered searching the archives bit it seems others do remember that thread.



Everyone agreed that it was a dumb penalty. Some of us didn't agree with the word "selfish" being used and that's when some people got upset - oh no, how dare you not agree with the use of the word selfish blah blah blah blah.

I personally can't recall the word "selfish" being used to describe the actions of any other Leaf players this season so I'm going to ask you - can you provide any examples? You did say "countless other players" so it shouldn't be too hard to name at least one or two.

You were asked earlier (more than once) to provide examples of players who had washed out in the prime of their careers (again I believe you said that there were many, can't remember if you used the word countless or not), you have ignored the request. Are you going to ignore this request as well?



Sure, had it been anyone else, the word selfish would never have been used. But when it's Kadri, oh boy. Any adjectives are OK apparently and god forbid anyone should object, then we're in for multiple pages of posts explaining how the word "selfish" applies. It's almost like Kadri is the only player who elicits such criticism, I wonder why that is?



Exactly. That's exactly what I said earlier - partying could shorten his career, that is entirely logical as if you don't take care of your body, it will wear down sooner. But the idea that his career could come to an abrupt end when he's in his prime is ridiculous. And of course Lou could decide that Kadri has no future as a Maple Leaf but he doesn't have the authority to forbid other teams from signing him so Pookie's idea that that quote proves anything is absurd.



Again, everyone agreed it was a dumb penalty. Everyone! That's why it's flipping tiring (to again borrow your phrase) to keep reading this nonsense about how Kadri can do no wrong and can't be criticized because people will defend him no matter what. This is simply not true and that incident proves it.

Again, I haven't seen the word used selfish used to describe the action of any other Leafs this season so if you can't find provide any such examples, perhaps you will have the grace to admit you were wrong? And if so, maybe then you can ponder why it is only Kadri who's actions get labelled as selfish.



I didn't count the posts but the discussion went on for days so I think it could have been hundreds.

Had it been anyone else their wouldn’t be pages of debate. The only reason Kadri gets that treatment because there are a small band of extremely vocal posters who view any criticism of Kadri as an attack. It was a dumb, selfish penalty and had anyone else done it they would have been roundly criticized.

This is a thread about Kadri’s development and somehow the same people are trying to make it about Bozak again. The same people are lashing out thread after thread then minute you say anything remotely critical about Kadri, it’s exhausting.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Had it been anyone else their wouldn’t be pages of debate. The only reason Kadri gets that treatment because there are a small band of extremely vocal posters who view any criticism of Kadri as an attack. It was a dumb, selfish penalty and had anyone else done it they would have been roundly criticized.

This is a thread about Kadri’s développement and somehow the same people are trying to make it about Bozak again. The same people are lashing out thread after thread then minute you say anything remotely critical about Kadri, it’s exhausting.

1)
you're 100% wrong, any criticism of Kadri is not viewed as an attack

2)
everyone agreed it was a dumb penalty, had it been left at that there would have been no argument at all

3)
had anyone else done it, the word selfish would not have been used, why is it that Kadri is the only one who's actions get characterized as selfish?

4)
the effort Kadri gives on a nightly basis is perhaps the highest on the team. I would object to the actions of any of our players being called selfish but especially Kadri who shows up and has one of the toughest roles on team night after night and takes the physical abuse that comes with the job. I'll stand by my opinion that he did what he did in the heat of the moment, that's only human and since he is the opposite of a selfish player, describing his actions as selfish makes no sense and is even somewhat offensive when you consider that no other player has his actions described that way

5)
I went on record saying that while people are entitled to say what they like, IMO selfish wasn't an appropriate word to use. Am I not entitled to that opinion?

6)
I find it ironic that you've objected several times now to people bringing up Bozak in a Kadri thread yet you're the one who keeps doing it

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

1)
you're 100% wrong, any criticism of Kadri is not viewed as an attack

2)
everyone agreed it was a dumb penalty, had it been left at that there would have been no argument at all

3)
had anyone else done it, the word selfish would not have been used, why is it that Kadri is the only one who's actions get characterized as selfish?

4)
the effort Kadri gives on a nightly basis is perhaps the highest on the team. I would object to the actions of any of our players being called selfish but especially Kadri who shows up and has one of the toughest roles on team night after night and takes the physical abuse that comes with the job. I'll stand by my opinion that he did what he did in the heat of the moment, that's only human and since he is the opposite of a selfish player, describing his actions as selfish makes no sense and is even somewhat offensive when you consider that no other player has his actions described that way

5)
I went on record saying that while people are entitled to say what they like, IMO selfish wasn't an appropriate word to use. Am I not entitled to that opinion?

6)
I find it ironic that you've objected several times now to people bringing up Bozak in a Kadri thread yet you're the one who keeps doing it

Yes selfish would have been used had another player did it. It was a selfish play, that doesn't mean Kadri is a selfish player. This is the problem you say anything critical about Kadri's play and it's twisted into an attack on Kadri the person.

Do you honestly believe no other player on the Leafs has ever been called selfish? You're entitled to your opinion, why aren't others entitled to theirs?

I didn't bring up Bozak, another poster did because they have this ridiculous idea that any criticism of Kadri must be flipped to Bozak. I did respond to them because the action they were accusing others of was exactly what this small band of posters do thread after thread.

Kadri is a good player but his slavish band of devoted zealots is annoying. They are bullies and blowhards who over react and attack anyone who doesn't follow their line of thinking. This thread has now devolved into the same band of posters just attacking anyone who doesn't think like them.

 

[taurine330]

This thread is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yes selfish would have been used had another player did it. It was a selfish play, that doesn't mean Kadri is a selfish player. This is the problem you say anything critical about Kadri's play and it's twisted into an attack on Kadri the person.

You keep insisting this is true but it's not. Not one person had a problem saying that was a dumb penalty - how do you explain that? Is saying he took a dumb penalty not criticism?

Do you honestly believe no other player on the Leafs has ever been called selfish? You're entitled to your opinion, why aren't others entitled to theirs?

I don't know about "ever", that's a very big word but I'm on these boards most days and I've never seen it happen here. Do you remember any of our players being called selfish? Which player and when did this happen? My guess is that you won't be able to come up with even one example because had this happened, it would likely have generated lively discussion and as such, I would have noticed it.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, I believe I said so in another post just a little while ago. When some of us objected to Kadri's actions being called selfish, it seemed like many people thought that we weren't entitled to our opinion and that's why that discussion went on as long as it did.

I didn't bring up Bozak, another poster did because they have this ridiculous idea that any criticism of Kadri must be flipped to Bozak. I did respond to them because the action they were accusing others of was exactly what this small band of posters do thread after thread.

Bozak vs Kadri used to be a thing, it hasn't really been a thing lately though. Do we really have to keep dredging up the past? Bozak vs Kadri from years ago, a suspension from 3 years ago ... where does it end?

Kadri is a good player but his slavish band of devoted zealots is annoying. They are bullies and blowhards who over react and attack anyone who doesn't follow their line of thinking. This thread has now devolved into the same band of posters just attacking anyone who doesn't think like them.

I guess I could respond in kind and say that anyone who sticks up for Kadri and argues that no matter what one-off quotes from Lou you can show, Kadri was never in any danger of his NHL career being over gets labelled as a bully, blowhard and a slavish zealot.

You seem to like using these terms and as such, IMHO you're part of the problem. That's just my opinion of course, you are entitled to yours.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

This thread is pretty ridiculous.

It's become so predicable that you can almost set your watch to them at this point.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

You keep insisting this is true but it's not. Not one person had a problem saying that was a dumb penalty - how do you explain that? Is saying he took a dumb penalty not criticism?



I don't know about "ever", that's a very big word but I'm on these boards most days and I've never seen it happen here. Do you remember any of our players being called selfish? Which player and when did this happen? My guess is that you won't be able to come up with even one example because had this happened, it would likely have generated lively discussion and as such, I would have noticed it.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, I believe I said so in another post just a little while ago. When some of us objected to Kadri's actions being called selfish, it seemed like many people thought that we weren't entitled to our opinion and that's why that discussion went on as long as it did.



Bozak vs Kadri used to be a thing, it hasn't really been a thing lately though. Do we really have to keep dredging up the past? Bozak vs Kadri from years ago, a suspension from 3 years ago ... where does it end?



I guess I could respond in kind and say that anyone who sticks up for Kadri and argues that no matter what one-off quotes from Lou you can show, Kadri was never in any danger of his NHL career being over gets labelled as a bully, blowhard and a slavish zealot.

You seem to like using these terms and as such, IMHO you're part of the problem. That's just my opinion of course, you are entitled to yours.

You can search the word selfish.

Polak, Nylander, Marner, Hyman all have been called selfish in the first few pages of results, for some strange reason it wasn't taken as a personal attack nor did it require pages and pages of discussion. There's a ton of posts about people being offended that someone dared suggest Kadri made a selfish play all by the usual suspects, funny that.

 

[Pookie]

We all know who started this ridiculous narrative that Kadri was on the verge of his career being over and it's nothing more than a pathetic attempt to justify his admittedly biased attacks on Kadri over the years.

We do.

The Globe and Mail and your inability to read a quote.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You can search the word selfish.

Polak, Nylander, Marner, Hyman all have been called selfish in the first few pages of results, for some strange reason it wasn't taken as a personal attack nor did it require pages and pages of discussion. There's a ton of posts about people being offended that someone dared suggest Kadri made a selfish play all by the usual suspects, funny that.

I just tried it - searched for the word "selfish" and restricted the results to posts on this board. I didn't see the results you mentioned. I saw mostly Kadri, some results in the prospects and free agency threads which don't seem to apply here. Here is that first page.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/search/1370519/?q=selfish&t=post&o=date&c[node]=17

And here is the second page. I see the opinion expressed that some of our players should be more selfish, I take it this isn't what you're referring to. Here you go:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/search/1370519/?page=2&q=selfish&t=post&o=date&c[node]=17

I don't have the time to dig around all day, if you've found these posts perhaps you can link to them or at least give more specific directions telling us how to find them?

We do.

The Globe and Mail and your inability to read a quote.

I addressed the quotes you posted. I also posted a quote from Shanahan that directly contradicts your post and suggested the logical conclusion would be not to take these one-off quotes as gospel. You've ignored this so it's safe to assume that if anyone is having trouble reading, it's you.

 

[Pookie]

You've been strangely silent on the subject of quotes ever since I posted the quote from the President of the Toronto Maple Leafs who clearly and unambiguously stated that Kadri was "a big part" of the Maple Leafs future.

Did you miss the quote or are you busy writing a letter to the president informing him of the error of his ways? Some of us have always said that it makes no sense to take one-off quotes as gospel, perhaps you'd like to come over to our side instead?

You are amazing. Asking me to comment on a quote when I included a similar quote in my original post on Page 2. Here (indented, italicized and for reference it is from the Globe. Oh and the ... means there are words before the quote that were not included)

“ ... But he also made it clear he thought Kadri could be one of the survivors of the rebuild.
​

You seem really desperate for a fight. I’m not going to give you one.

Many posters see this thread for what it is. Myself and a number share the view that Kadri was at a crossroads. Including Kadri HIMSELF.

I post an article, you don’t like it/me (its pretty transparent). Try to start a fight. I bite. And eventually this thread gets shut down.

And ironically you and the small gang blame me for answering the OP directly with an article that says his turnaround was a function of the team and player with heavy onus on the player.

Something many have said here. Where’s your beef with them? At least try to make it look objective.

Sad.

 

[Gary Nylund]

As many of the Kadri threads; just wondering when this one bites the dust.

P.S. Kadri has the most threads on HF Leafs forums (whether it is hatred driven or not..... )

I'd set the over/under at midnight tonight. Oh well, last time a Kadri thread was closed, I believe he had two goals and an assist the next game, maybe history will repeat itself. I almost started a new thread after that game just so I could give him a thumbs up but I figured there was no point as the conversation would inevitably turn to a 3 year old suspension. It seems I was on point, sad stuff.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You are amazing. Asking me to comment on a quote when I included a similar quote in my original post on Page 2. Here (indented, italicized and for reference it is from the Globe. Oh and the ... means there are words before the quote that were not included)

“ ... But he also made it clear he thought Kadri could be one of the survivors of the rebuild.​

Sad.

You've been saying that Lou's quote proves that Kadri might not have a future as an NHL player.

I showed you a quote where Shanahan said that Kadri "is a big part of our future". Not "could be", but is.

You are wrong. It's not complicated.

 

[diceman934]

It's become so predicable that you can almost set your watch to them at this point.

You are one of them to by the way!

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

I just tried it - searched for the word "selfish" and restricted the results to posts on this board. I didn't see the results you mentioned. I saw mostly Kadri, some results in the prospects and free agency threads which don't seem to apply here. Here is that first page.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/search/1370519/?q=selfish&t=post&o=date&c[node]=17

And here is the second page. I see the opinion expressed that some of our players should be more selfish, I take it this isn't what you're referring to. Here you go:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/search/1370519/?page=2&q=selfish&t=post&o=date&c[node]=17

I don't have the time to dig around all day, if you've found these posts perhaps you can link to them or at least give more specific directions telling us how to find them?



I addressed the quotes you posted. I also posted a quote from Shanahan that directly contradicts your post and suggested the logical conclusion would be not to take these one-off quotes as gospel. You've ignored this so it's safe to assume that if anyone is having trouble reading, it's you.

Polak (page 3)

I don't like him. He takes selfish stick infractions, his being overly physical leads to penalties and suspensions, and he plays the game on auto-pilot. Our PK is better without him and his being on the roster takes a spot away from a hard-working AHLer. Absolute bum.

Marner (Page 4)

he is the poster boy for sense of entitlement .....connor brown deserves way more ice time ,that was a very weak and selfish play by marner ,no more excuses about being small .
pony up or sit his azz down ..sorry for the rant ,but he deffinatley is feeling it this year ,hes being hit and he is shy ,vince dunn made him his biotch

Gardiner (Page 7)

Somebody needs to hit Gardiner in the face there is no need to take that penalty none that is a selfish, gutless play

I think that more then proves my point. During all those pages the usual group of Kadri supporters keep grinding into dust the fact that people dared to suggest Kadri made a selfish play, continually making snide comment about Kadri being selfish.

 

[Pookie]

You've been saying that Lou's quote proves that Kadri might not have a future as an NHL player.

I showed you a quote where Shanahan said that Kadri "is a big part of our future". Not "could be", but is.

You are wrong. It's not complicated.

Sad. Just turn off the computer and think you are right.

No crossroads. No decision to make. No need to involve his parents. Lupul? Who knows. No off ice excess. No life changes.

When Shanahan said he had decisions to make (want a quote?), his future as a Leaf was a given? His crossroads was really about playing forward or goalie?

Nice to see others are seeing this for what it really is.

 

[Pookie]

Even before turning it around, Kadri was a top 6 forward. It is worth discussing whether a newfound professionalism helped him take that last step to being the two-way 30-30 player he is today, but it's not even debatable that he'd be out of the league otherwise. He was always a good offensive player, unless you subscribe to a certain theory that his off-ice issues would make his shooting percentage decline every year without having an impact on anything else in his game.

Disagree.

Players with “off ice excess” issues end their careers early all the time.

Some can continue on, sure but it clearly isn’t a given. And that makes it debateable.

Since you introduced shooting percentage, we saw a multi year decline in shooting percentage while he was going through this excess. Worth considering at least.

 

[wmark]

Pookie, name all these players with off ice excess issues that ended their careers early.

Or are you giving a general statement just so it sticks?

I'm still waiting for Patrik Kane's issues to end his career early.

Patrick Kane timeline: Current case and other incidents for Blackhawks star