Did Kadri develop because of good Leafs player management/development or despite it?

[Gary Nylund]

I guess you could say he weathered the elements and made good use of the positives afforded him along the way. He never completely derailed but came close. Given fair opportunity for his skill, he has performed or exceeded expectations.

Made good use ... that's a good way of putting it. I don't think he came close to "completely derailing" though. The one thing I always liked about Kadri is that the effort always seemed to be there, he was always near the top of the list as far as how often players on the team "showed up to play". And while none of us can know how serious these off-ice issues were, the fact that he was so consistent in his effort suggests to me that they weren't so bad, that perhaps it was more a matter of perception (represent the team proudly on and off the ice). Nobody saw the suspension coming, he did his time and continued on as if it had never happened. That's hardly a player close who's close to "derailing".

This is like his career in a nutshell for me - He was always going to be a fine producer who could stick around in the NHL for quite some time just based on his natural abilities. However, he also always had the potential for so much more than that, and simply needed help figuring out how to put everything together.

Kadri's always struck me as someone who's grown up with a chip on their shoulder, someone with a lot to prove (both to himself and possibly his detractors) - That feistiness was always going to provide the drive required for him to be a competent player in the NHL, and his natural skill would make up the rest. But, to be a truly elite player, he had work to do, and he needed the right people to support him and help him develop that aspect of his game. Those people were not all always in place early on in his career, but they definitely seem to be now.

The people who acknowledge that he turned things around, at least on a mental level, are certainly right, but so are those who acknowledged that he was always a special talent and supported him early on in his career when he was struggling to carve out his role on the team - He was always a good player doing a lot of the right things on the ice, he just needed help putting everything together and becoming a consistent threat over all 200' of the rink.

To try and pretend like he was reprogrammed into a completely new player, or to try and pretend that he hasn't come a long way since Babcock and Shanahan got their hands on him, is disingenuous, and reeks of trying more to win an argument than trying to understand the development and growth of a real-live human being. We've seen both of those arguments around here in the past, and I just hope we're done with them so we can all simply enjoy how good Kadri is.

Nice post!

 

[Duckrider]

oh my lord.

Shanahan and Lamoriello and Babcock saw Kadri as part of their future. they also said if he didn't smarten up, he wouldn't be. both were said, and I feel both were said at face value. so the sooner both parties can accept that these were the options presented we can move on. geeze marie.

I want to see the quote thank you. I find this thread very amusing/frustrating. Why because its the same old Kadri haters at it again. I dont every remember this management or coaching staff making these kind of ultimatum types of comments. What I do remember is certain posters warping what they said to fit their agenda. One of the very first things Babs said about him was that he was really surprised how good Kadri really is and didnt understand where all the negativity towards him was coming from.

Kadri is a #1/#2 C. All his numbers point to this. But we have Matthews now. A 30/30 is a top line guy no matter how you slice it.

 

[Duckrider]

This thread had continued to head ever deeper into the absurd.

So now Kadri was a hair away from ending is NHL career? Lol

you and I have had some great debates about him. All the while others who had maintained a hyper negative view of said player too the point of, well their view had to be based on something other than hockey. I remember Kadri interviews being disected to the point of stupidity. If he used the work "I" at all he was scum and selfish etc. He was drafted with being a future CAPTAIN.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

I want to see the quote thank you. I find this thread very amusing/frustrating. Why because its the same old Kadri haters at it again. I dont every remember this management or coaching staff making these kind of ultimatum types of comments. What I do remember is certain posters warping what they said to fit their agenda. One of the very first things Babs said about him was that he was really surprised how good Kadri really is and didnt understand where all the negativity towards him was coming from.

Kadri is a #1/#2 C. All his numbers point to this. But we have Matthews now. A 30/30 is a top line guy no matter how you slice it.

Who? Who hates Kadri? I see this term thrown around a lot but I don't see anyone hating Kadri. You can criticize a player that doesn't mean you hate them. In October I was critical of Andersen because he was playing poorly but I really like Andersen, he's a fantastic goalie that doesn't mean he should be immune from criticism.

Just in case someone says I hate Kadri, I don't hate Kadri I just find some of his supporters extremely obnoxious. That has nothing to do with Kadri, he's a good asset to the team and fits in perfectly as a match-up center. He's not a number one center at least not on a very good team, which we are and that's not a slight on Kadri. Very good teams have centers like Matthews.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I want to see the quote thank you. I find this thread very amusing/frustrating. Why because its the same old Kadri haters at it again. I dont every remember this management or coaching staff making these kind of ultimatum types of comments. What I do remember is certain posters warping what they said to fit their agenda. One of the very first things Babs said about him was that he was really surprised how good Kadri really is and didnt understand where all the negativity towards him was coming from.

Kadri is a #1/#2 C. All his numbers point to this. But we have Matthews now. A 30/30 is a top line guy no matter how you slice it.

Babcock, Shanahan and Lamoriello said it roughly around the time of Kadri's suspension. both the one where they see Kadri as part of the future (this was even referenced as early as Babcock's hiring, that players like Will, Naz etc need a good coach, that's why they weren't getting a cruddy one to tank), however, they also said if he didn't change his behaviour he wouldn't be an NHL player. I don't have the articles (nor radio clips) but i'm pretty sure if you googled it, you'd see them in the Globe + Mail.

it was never presented as an ultimatum. most people here tend to just focus on one (ie: Naz being part of the future), or the other (Naz's behaviour could have cost him being a Leaf, and if it was serious enough his career (maybe, i don't know i'm not really putting words in people's mouths) and all i'm saying both were said, to me it was basically, this is how we see it, this is why we're doing this, and if the behaviour is not corrected. (he's no longer a leaf) and it could impact his career. Some people wanna be like lol like this could happen, or it would have been 6 months poof.

 

[Pookie]

This thread had continued to head ever deeper into the absurd.

So now Kadri was a hair away from ending is NHL career? Lol

The spin from Lou’s quote is indeed amazing.

Funny that Gary is attributing it to me.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Babcock, Shanahan and Lamoriello said it roughly around the time of Kadri's suspension. both the one where they see Kadri as part of the future (this was even referenced as early as Babcock's hiring, that players like Will, Naz etc need a good coach, that's why they weren't getting a cruddy one to tank), however, they also said if he didn't change his behaviour he wouldn't be an NHL player. I don't have the articles (nor radio clips) but i'm pretty sure if you googled it, you'd see them in the Globe + Mail.

it was never presented as an ultimatum. most people here tend to just focus on one (ie: Naz being part of the future), or the other (Naz's behaviour could have cost him being a Leaf, and if it was serious enough his career (maybe, i don't know i'm not really putting words in people's mouths) and all i'm saying both were said, to me it was basically, this is how we see it, this is why we're doing this, and if the behaviour is not corrected. (he's no longer a leaf) and it could impact his career. Some people wanna be like lol like this could happen, or it would have been 6 months poof.

Here is a link to a Toronto Star article from March 11, 2015 written by Bruce Arthur after Shanahan had suspended Kadri for those 3 games. However it should be said Babcock was still coaching in Detroit and Lamoriello was still the Devils GM at the time.

Nazem Kadri’s Leaf future hangs in balance after suspension: Arthur | Toronto Star

 

[Pookie]

Pookie, according to you they ALL end their careers early. Not sometimes but ALL the time.

I showed you they do not all end their careers early.

*Points to Mike Riberio (This was your rebuttal not mine)

Do you think an 18 year professional hockey career is short?

It's about your assertions you make. They don't fact check.

I'm still waiting for the Mike Riberio explanation.

You think being bought out of a contract in 2014 after playing at a point per game pace is indiciative of an admitted alcohol problem not having an effect?

Let’s simply this. Does a life of excess ever have a negative impact on a person’s life and career?

Yes.

No

 

[IBeL34f]

This isn't specifically about Kadri (it's from an awesome interview from right before Babs' first season with us) but provides some insight on what guys like Babcock (and possibly Shanny, etc.) are trying to do when they publicly air out issues with their players:

"I call it “sharing the love.” You know when your wife’s having a good go at you? I always say to the guys, “Hey, she’s just sharing the love. If she didn’t love you, she wouldn’t talk to you like that.” To me, it’s kitchen-table accountability. When you sit around your kitchen table with people you love, if you say something stupid, they call you on it right away—because they’re honest with you and they’re making you better. That’s what we’re going to have here. We’re going to have an honest respect for one another, to make everyone maximize the potential they have. I expect the players to listen to me, and I’m going to listen to them. We’ve got to make each other better here, and it’s another way to create safety, because the players know you’ve got their backs. When you tell a player what you want, he will try to please you. ...
I think being honest with one another creates an environment that’s comfortable. You want to know where you stand, whether you’re doing a good job. The players know what’s going on before you do. They’re trying to see if you’re going to do something about it. And when it’s not like that, everybody is pissed off, because they know that people can get away with stuff and that nobody is keeping them in line. That’s not a team to me. ...
I just think there are 23 guys on your team and you have to coach them 23 different ways. Some guys don’t fit in to what you’re going to do, but they want to do well, they’re trying. ...
"You’re not going to let anybody take your enthusiasm away, and you’re not going to let any coach be mentally tougher than you. Coaches aren’t out to get you. They want to help you. They want to maximize your potential.” Sometimes that message gets confused. If a coach is on you? He ain’t on anybody he doesn’t like or care about. What a waste of time that would be!"

Mike Babcock: 23 men, 23 ways to coach - Macleans.ca

I'm a huge fan of this quote (and interview) and like to bring it up when people get upset about Babcock critiquing guys like Nylander and Dermott in public, while guys like Hyman, Polak and Leo remain unscathed. The only reason to be so hard on someone is because you have high expectations of them. If they didn't see something special in Naz, they wouldn't have bothered.

 

[Menzinger]

Circling back, how are Kadri and Riberio even remotely comparable?

The idea that some people feel they have the ability to evaluate the personal life of somebody they likely have never met face to face is ridiculous.

 

[Pookie]

I'm just saying his interactions with Pookie are between the two of them. It doesn't matter to me whose right or wrong it's just an aberration compared to how he usually posts, which is what I was referring to in my post.

May I ask everyone an objective question?

In a thread about reasons as to why he developed, is this “spewing nonsense?”

Organizational support was a big factor and I think Shanahan got directly involved.

But so too was his own personal decision...

... He had talent and opportunity. He almost pissed it away. He didn’t. A massive credit goes to him for realizing his “off ice excess” and choosing the right path in the cross roads.

I ask as that is my post on page 2 (minus the Globe and Mail quote and lead in) that has generated 10 pages of vitriol.

Is there something unreasonable about that? Some kind of “hate” hidden in the words “massive credit?”

I couldn’t care less whether @Gary Nylund agrees with me on other issues. Is this supposed to show he is objective? This is his pattern not just with me.

You used the term zealot. Maybe the leader of that group needs to take a look in the mirror.

I am 100% comfortable in my position as stated above and no amount of lying or bullying will change.

Sadly, Gary will continue to follow me around and call my posts... the exact same ones he likes with other posters... spewed nonsense.

It’s not about the issue of the day. It’s something sad and honestly, as I have said before, a little disturbing.

 

[Pookie]

Circling back, how are Kadri and Riberio even remotely comparable?

The idea that some people feel they have the ability to evaluate the personal life of somebody they likely have never met face to face is ridiculous.

He wanted a list of players (or I guess a list of humans) who have been impacted by living a life of “partying”. Apparently being bought out of a contract doesn’t imply an impact or Kordic dying (amongst many others) isn’t a real thing.

 

[nsleaf]

Not sure if it just me but I'm getting an overwhelming sense of deja vu reading through this thread.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I am 100% comfortable in my position as stated above and no amount of lying or bullying will change.

Sadly, Gary will continue to follow me around and call my posts... the exact same ones he likes with other posters... spewed nonsense.

It’s not about the issue of the day. It’s something sad and honestly, as I have said before, a little disturbing.

You're hilarious dude. I guess your selective memory has blocked out all those occasions where I have quoted you and said things like that was a great post, I agree with you 100%. I can't recall you ever agreeing doing the same to any of my posts and that's fine but this martyr act of yours and this talk of being bullied is such BS. Grow a pair and start acting like an adult.

 

[Pookie]

You're hilarious dude. I guess your selective memory has blocked out all those occasions where I have quoted you and said things like that was a great post, I agree with you 100%. I can't recall you ever agreeing doing the same to any of my posts and that's fine but this martyr act of yours and this talk of being bullied is such BS. Grow a pair and start acting like an adult.

You are sad and angry at me because you can’t recall me ever liking your posts?

 

[saffronleaf]

oh my lord.

Shanahan and Lamoriello and Babcock saw Kadri as part of their future. they also said if he didn't smarten up, he wouldn't be. both were said, and I feel both were said at face value. so the sooner both parties can accept that these were the options presented we can move on. geeze marie.

Still waiting for that list of several players who were as good as Kadri but washed up due to significantly milder off-ice excesses.

 

[thewave]

Made good use ... that's a good way of putting it. I don't think he came close to "completely derailing" though. The one thing I always liked about Kadri is that the effort always seemed to be there, he was always near the top of the list as far as how often players on the team "showed up to play". And while none of us can know how serious these off-ice issues were, the fact that he was so consistent in his effort suggests to me that they weren't so bad, that perhaps it was more a matter of perception (represent the team proudly on and off the ice). Nobody saw the suspension coming, he did his time and continued on as if it had never happened. That's hardly a player close who's close to "derailing".



Nice post!

He did nearly derail. He was told that he would not be a part of the team if he did not clean up his act. I would say that's about as close as you can get to derailing from an organization as possible.

 

[Ignatius Reilly]

From the Toronto Star article linked above:

"He just has some bad habits. It used to be this organization would say, oh, that’s how 21-year-old boys act. Or 22-year-olds. Well, Kadri’s nearly 25. The Leafs appreciate his talent, and like him. They want to sign him. They just need him to be better, and decided working behind the scenes wouldn’t work this time.
“We would not be doing Nazem, who we care about, a service if we did that,” said Shanahan. “We need this to be a real learning moment . . . it’s really how you respond to it that’s important to us.”
He emphasized that, over and over. They want Kadri to be a part of the future."​

It's a pretty clear message from Shanny.

He liked Naz, he wanted Naz for the future. He also told Naz it's time to shape up (or ship out). It was up to Naz how he would respond and he responded very well.

There's never been any question about his talent. It was all about whether he'd mature enough to keep getting the chance to use it.

Some may not think he was that close to the edge, but I know if I was in a meeting with my boss and things were being said like that, I'd be thinking 'I'm awfully close to the door here.'

 

[LeafsNation75]

 

[wmark]

You think being bought out of a contract in 2014 after playing at a point per game pace is indiciative of an admitted alcohol problem not having an effect?

Let’s simply this. Does a life of excess ever have a negative impact on a person’s life and career?

Yes.

No

Pookie explain how Mike Riberios 18 year hockey career was impacted by his excess lifestyle rather than his age.

 

[Pookie]

Pookie explain how Mike Riberios 18 year hockey career was impacted by his excess lifestyle rather than his age.

Sorry was he or was he not bought out of his contract in 2014?

 

[Bluelines]

He wanted a list of players (or I guess a list of humans) who have been impacted by living a life of “partying”. Apparently being bought out of a contract doesn’t imply an impact or Kordic dying (amongst many others) isn’t a real thing.

Introduce him to google .... plenty of articles about NHL players who washed out due to substance abuse,

 

[IBeL34f]

Pookie explain how Mike Riberios 18 year hockey career was impacted by his excess lifestyle rather than his age.

I feel really weird talking about a situation so personal to someone I've never met, and the extent of whose issues I have no context on or comprehension of. Having said that, is it outlandish at all to assume that someone with addiction and substance issues could still perform at a high capacity, while also being limited from playing at their full capacity?

Players used to smoke in between periods, or eat like shit - Do people honestly not believe that they would've been even better than they were if they were taking proper care of themselves? "Functioning" substance abusers do exist, and "High-functioning" ones do to, but to assume that they are truly at their peak of their abilities while abusing said substances seems illogical, especially if the substance they abuse can have direct consequences on their "tools" (in an NHLer's case, their body).

I would recommend people put away any specific individual situations of substance abuse regarding any people they have no direct relationship with, though. I haven't heard anything concrete about Kadri's behaviour off-ice, except that he needed to work on it. Speculating on someone's possible mental health or addiction issues based on stuff like that isn't really cool.

 

[Bluelines]

Pookie explain how Mike Riberios 18 year hockey career was impacted by his excess lifestyle rather than his age.

Our next entry on this list of pro hockey letdowns features a more recent development. As revealed by Hockey Feed this past May, the 17-year career of Nashville Predator’s center Ribeiro may have permanently gone down the drain due to another relapse into alcoholism. Ribeiro’s inability to break from the bottle lead the Predators to demote him to AHL Milwaukee, while rumors ran wild that Ribeiro was a distraction in the locker room.
Even Ribeiro’s agent Bob Perno admitted that his client’s career may be over due to this latest regression. Ribeiro missed out in the Predators’ daring run this past postseason, going all the way to the Stanley Cup Finals before bowing to the dynastic Pittsburgh Penguins. There’s always the possibility that aborting Ribeiro from the team sufficiently solidified the Preds’ chemistry, fueling their run to the Finals, so perhaps it worked out for the best. That is, except for Mr. Ribeiro.

www.thesportster.com/hockey/15-nhl-players-who-were-completely-destroyed-by-substance-abuse/

 

[wmark]

Sorry was he or was he not bought out of his contract in 2014?

Sorry was he or was he not bought out of his contract in 2014?

Did a team not give him another contract the following year?

Pookie: "Players with “off ice excess” issues end their careers early all the time."

Since you said Players end their careers early all the time, why did Mike Riberio play hockey in the NHL until he was 37 years old?

Despite being bought out, and another team giving him a contract. How did his career end early as a 37 year old?

Despite having off ice excess issues, Jeff Carter is still in the NHL. Please predict when he will be out of the NHL.