Did Bettman try and save the Jets?

[MoMiester]

Bang on. You beat me to it, but I could not have said it better and probably would have taken more words.

The only thing I might add would be that the "business case" (and I put that in quotations for a reason), even if one were to assume its validity (and I would not for a second), works to that degree only right here, right now. It is blown out of the water if (a) the Cdn/US$ exchange rate goes down, (b) any tickets are unsold or comped or even given to charity, (c) the Peg cannot sustain revenue growth so as to even qualify for revenue sharing (which, if it sells out day one, then by definition it cannot), (d) expenses such as travel do not spike, (e) there is other expense inflation, (f) the cap goes up such that the floor exceeds their salary budget or (g) any other unforseen circumstance occurs.

That said,, I have no problem with a team in W'Peg and think it would be exciting but it is misconceptions of other teams/markets stated by certain websites/posters while maybe ignoring issues in the W'Peg market/business case that gets me. I have looked and search and watched and followed for years and used every bit of my MBA to understand.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Not quite what I was asking, Hutch. Details of any local aside, refer to the questions I posted.

Nothing about bringing/beating a tired horse to this discussion---but if it wasn't for True North building the MTS Centre, Winnipeg has made up its mind, it comes down to the following:

had they built MTS Centre when the Jets were still around would we be having numerous threads about Winnipeg either 'deserving' or justification for or against Winnipeg getting a NHL Team, it didn't happen because no local owner stepped forward to say keep the Jets in Winnipeg. It's very similar to saying why the justification to keeping the Penguins in Pittsburgh instead of them going elsewhere or the Quebec and Hartford relocations to Denver and Raleigh.

But the MTS Centre was built to not accomodate an NHL franchise and is it really in True North's interest to expand that building if it's not warranted or necessary. It has hockey, and that's better than having a building with no tenant. How would Winnipeg like to go back to those years with the Jets gone and had the Moose not been relocated to Winnipeg because of the Wild's re-entry, due to no fault of that fan base because of Norm Green aka Norm Greed to relocate that franchise to Dallas.

It comes down to supporting Chipman/True North/Manitoba Moose or face no hockey in Winnipeg ever. I don't buy into anyone who subscribes to the theory that Winnipeg deserves an NHL team when there is hockey in the province of Manitoba either support it or not.

 

[razorsedge]

It is the assumption that because boxes sold out at $20K-$40K (don't let it slip up to $60K like it has on that webiste over the last year. I talked to people who know in W'Peg and appartently some good deals on boxes were given) will sell out at NHL level of $175K. And that is $175 USD. Your leader has been quoted as saying "Bussinesses just need to pony up" and that is all he has said. Real easy for guy on a website to say. Much different in the real world and I work for large corporation handling $$M of dollars myself. Money does not flow that easy

My leader?

Yes, the Winnipeg businesses need to pony up, he never said it would be easy or that they are obligated to. All he stated was that for a team in Winnipeg to work, the local businesses need to be very involved and active with support, nothing more.

Your leader sent out a request to local businesses to ask about support but has never published the results. He did this almost a year ago. Could it be no one responded? Again, maybe the box issue is no problem but it always seems as Peggers just blow past that one like it is no big deal or take it for granted that the local business community will "just pony up for it."

Since you noticed that nice Corporate Support link, and decided to click on it, did you not read the entire page and notice the disclaimer at the bottom?

Disclaimer:
Company information will not be used publicly or published in any capacity.
Only subscription interest results will be used.

http://www.jetsowner.com/corporatesupport.htm

For Sponsorship deals, the current deals for the Moose are null and void if the NHL comes to town. Now every sponsorship deal goes up 5-10 fold more expensive. Not sure how much Toyota paid to be the box office sponsor, but with the NHL there, it goes up $$$thousand of dollars. Same with every dasher board ad and ad in the lobby. Same with every promotion, every, every, every thing. The MTS deal is worth $700K a year. That is about $1.5M a year short at a minimal of making the name rights meet other NHL teams. Some teams are getting $4M a year on naming rights And, sponsorships rotate as a team must always be working the next deal. They can not keep getting more and more and more money out of the same people. Might work for some but not all. A downturn in the economy will make many pull back to less or nothing at all.


Every NHL team needs 5 top sponsors. The deals need to be at a minimal near a $1M USD and some need to be much more (naming rights). They will include commercials, board ads, scoreboard ads, etc so you can not double count these. All these sponsors will ask for things like boxes and numerous tickets and free parking.

Where did you come up with these prices and figures? And for which team? Cause I'm sure they vary.

I've watched and been to many Oiler games. When I look at the adds, I see company's such as Boston Pizza, Tim Horton's, Scotia bank, various beer brands, Husky, home hardware, coca cola, Esso, Sony, husky, Canadian tire, HSBC, Smirnoff ice, samsung, napa, toyota...all these company's and many more that I've missed, all exist also in Winnipeg, Manitoba. Why wouldn't these company's pay for ad space in the MTS for the similar price Rexall place asks?

They will not just do it because they like hockey. There has to be a benifit of increased business.

Thats why company's pay for advertising space, to increase business. Why wouldn't it in Winnipeg?

Even by your fearless leaders website, hockey to work in W'peg has to sell out 15K seats a game at one of the highest tickets prices in the NHL. And at that amount, the team would loose $5M or break even and that is with $7M in revenue sharing. Also with mid salary range of $35M which would be lowest in the league. That is selling out every box and selling every single ticket. That does not even cover the cost of purchase of the team. That is not figured into the math.

Now he's my fearless leader?

Anyways, True North and Mark Chipman will definitely need to be apart of the ownership group for any hope of NHL's survival in the Peg. Every single bit of revenue that can be made through the MTS centre will be needed. I also agree, ticket prices will be on the higher side, but nothing Winnipegers can't handle. Heck, living in Edmonton now, I'd buy season tickets just to help support them.

In a best case scenerio for an ownership group. If the Asper family was also involved in the ownership, I think the team will be very succesful concerning a TV deal. The Asper family is very involved in the Winnipeg business community publicly (most recent being the CFL Blue Bombers and building of a new stadium) and is also owners of Canwest Global and now Alliance Atlantis which the Canada wide sports channel Score falls under. That, combined with the MTS centre is a very strong revenue source for a franchise.


In response to somebody else's post on the previous page concerning why I'd want Gary Bettman to publicly state that NHL hockey in Winnipeg won't work. I know he doesn't decide where teams go and what not. He speaks on behalf of the owners and BOG. Gary Bettman to me would be the most credible person to believe if he were to say a team would not be viable. I believe he has the ability to properly research the topic.

 

[Jumptheshark]

The jets situation had a few problems

1)No local owner that was willing to step up

2)The arena--they finally built a new arena--but it is so small that the nhl will not come back

3)Population and money

Here is where peggers start getting mad--some people put the city as being as the same size of Edmonton--been to both and I say Edmonton is bigger and has more money in it.

 

[KrisKing*]

If you're characterizing the Colorado market in that way (with your "lousy markets" comment), that's ridiculous. Have you any idea what went on here with the Rockies and their beyond-hopeless ownership situation?

About the same thing that went on in Winnipeg with the Jets.

 

[GSC2k2*]

About the same thing that went on in Winnipeg with the Jets.

Not hardly. Colorado was an extreme six-year long version of what went down at the end with Winnipeg.

 

[sgt_pepper]

If Minnesota can lose a team and get one back I don't see why Winnipeg can't, especialy with the way things are right now.

Don't say that because a city loses a team they don't deserve to get one back.

 

[GSC2k2*]

If Minnesota can lose a team and get one back I don't see why Winnipeg can't, especialy with the way things are right now.

Don't say that because a city loses a team they don't deserve to get one back.

Um, because they are different?

Anyone who uses the term "deserves" in the context of hockey franchises has no clue and really should avoid posting on a "business of hockey" board, IMHO.

 

[J-Zilla]

Not hardly. Colorado was an extreme six-year long version of what went down at the end with Winnipeg.

What on earth are you talking about? Please elaborate.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

What on earth are you talking about? Please elaborate.

Jack Vickers (owner of the Vickers gas stations which were bought out by
Total) bought the Kansas City Scouts and moved them to Denver, where they
were renamed the Colorado Rockies. He was upset with the lease with
the city of Denver which was no parking revenue, concession money, and a
scant 8% of the ticket sales. Vickers got into a pissing contest with then
Denver mayor Bill McNichols and McNichols didn't change his stance even
with the NHL got involved and asked the city of Denver to be more
accomodating. To add insult to injury, the city of Denver had the arena
booked for the Ice Follies when the Rockies made the playoffs and the city
said that the Ice Follies were more important, so the Rockies were very
nearly cheated out of the home playoff date when the Follies finally gave
in and said that they could play at home for their lone playoff game (that
series was a best of 3 with games 1 and 3 being in Philadelphia. Colorado
lost games 1 and 2 both by just one goal each.)


Vickers was pissed and he said he would either build his own arena or sell
the team to someone who had the patience to deal with the stubborn city.
At no point was fan support an issue and Vickers said he would have never
sold the team if he had anything resembling a decent lease (i.e. fan
support was NOT the issue).


So he sold it to an ownership group of Arthur Imperatore/Armand Pohan
(well, one family - they were in-laws) who were based in New Jersey, and
in their very first press conference they planned on moving the team
because they wanted an NHL team in New Jersey.


After they failed miserably at running the NHL franchise, they sold the
team to Peter Gilbert who was a Buffalo man. Gilbert was a moron as well
and the fans absolutely hated him with a passion. It was at this point
that the fans finally lost their patience with the ownership that was
still saying publicly that they were moving the team to New Jersey and
Gilbert was the most hated man in Denver. Gilbert sold the team to John
McMullen who completed the move to New Jersey. The Rockies did struggle to
fill the stands at times, but considering the quality of play of the team
and the product they put out on the ice, any franchise in North America
would likely have met the same struggles. Regardless, the lack of
attendance was not the issue. To compound the attendance problems, the
fans struggled with the idea of going to see a team that would be moving
sooner rather than later (turns out it took 3 years to move it instead of
2 because of the sheer incompetency of the ownership).

 

[ColoradoHockeyFan]

What on earth are you talking about? Please elaborate.

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=7722037&postcount=732

 

[razorsedge]

Originally Posted by alt.sports.hockey.nhl.col-avalanche FAQ, version 1.46
Jack Vickers (owner of the Vickers gas stations which were bought out by
Total) bought the Kansas City Scouts and moved them to Denver, where they
were renamed the Colorado Rockies. He was upset with the lease with
the city of Denver which was no parking revenue, concession money, and a
scant 8% of the ticket sales. Vickers got into a pissing contest with then
Denver mayor Bill McNichols and McNichols didn't change his stance even
with the NHL got involved and asked the city of Denver to be more
accomodating. To add insult to injury, the city of Denver had the arena
booked for the Ice Follies when the Rockies made the playoffs and the city
said that the Ice Follies were more important, so the Rockies were very
nearly cheated out of the home playoff date when the Follies finally gave
in and said that they could play at home for their lone playoff game (that
series was a best of 3 with games 1 and 3 being in Philadelphia. Colorado
lost games 1 and 2 both by just one goal each.)


Vickers was pissed and he said he would either build his own arena or sell
the team to someone who had the patience to deal with the stubborn city.
At no point was fan support an issue and Vickers said he would have never
sold the team if he had anything resembling a decent lease (i.e. fan
support was NOT the issue).


So he sold it to an ownership group of Arthur Imperatore/Armand Pohan
(well, one family - they were in-laws) who were based in New Jersey, and
in their very first press conference they planned on moving the team
because they wanted an NHL team in New Jersey.


After they failed miserably at running the NHL franchise, they sold the
team to Peter Gilbert who was a Buffalo man. Gilbert was a moron as well
and the fans absolutely hated him with a passion. It was at this point
that the fans finally lost their patience with the ownership that was
still saying publicly that they were moving the team to New Jersey and
Gilbert was the most hated man in Denver. Gilbert sold the team to John
McMullen who completed the move to New Jersey. The Rockies did struggle to
fill the stands at times, but considering the quality of play of the team
and the product they put out on the ice, any franchise in North America
would likely have met the same struggles. Regardless, the lack of
attendance was not the issue. To compound the attendance problems, the
fans struggled with the idea of going to see a team that would be moving
sooner rather than later (turns out it took 3 years to move it instead of
2 because of the sheer incompetency of the ownership).

Yep, just like the Jets. Fan support wasn't an issue, the Arena was. Nobody in the city stepped up and the municipal government didn't nothing to help with getting a new Arena.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Yep, just like the Jets. Fan support wasn't an issue, the Arena was. Nobody in the city stepped up and the municipal government didn't nothing to help with getting a new Arena.

Read what gscarpenter said in the post. The situation was similar. It was stretched out over many more years in Colorado, however.

 

[sgt_pepper]

Um, because they are different?

Anyone who uses the term "deserves" in the context of hockey franchises has no clue and really should avoid posting on a "business of hockey" board, IMHO.

Why shouldn't I be allowed to use the term deserves?

I understand that sports is 98% about money these days, and honestly I don't know enough about the business to say whether or not we can "afford" a franchise, I can say that we deserve one though.

But Minnesota lost the North Stars and got a team back.
Winnipeg may be much smaller, but we could rough it out with the way things are now.

 

[J-Zilla]

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=7722037&postcount=732

Thanks, guys.

 

[J-Zilla]

Read what gscarpenter said in the post. The situation was similar. It was stretched out over many more years in Colorado, however.

Actually, the situation with the Jets was stretched out over years, as well. As early as 1984, Shankerow wanted to build a new arena with help from government money. They refused. By 1989, the old arena was out of date, and Shankerow had a good point. Unfortunately, nobody in Winnipeg saw the need for an arena at the time.

The governemtn did finally throw a bone to the Jets, but not in the way they had hoped. The Government of Manitoba agreed to help cover any financial losses incurred by the team in the early 90's instead of giving financial help for an arena. By the time the governemnt finally decided to explore building an arena, it was too late as Shankerow was looking to sell the team to owners outside of Winnipeg.

At the 11th hour, the business community joined together for a last ditch effert to help save the team. Unfortunately, they could not come to an agreement, and the team headed to Phoenix.

 

[GSC2k2*]

Why shouldn't I be allowed to use the term deserves?

I understand that sports is 98% about money these days, and honestly I don't know enough about the business to say whether or not we can "afford" a franchise, I can say that we deserve one though.

But Minnesota lost the North Stars and got a team back.
Winnipeg may be much smaller, but we could rough it out with the way things are now.

Because this board is the "Business of Hockey" board, and "deserves" has nothing to do with anything, that's why.

People don't get "chances" to "rough it out". This is about owners putting up hundreds of millions of dollars, being responsible for the livelihoods of hundreds of people who work for the team and its affiliates. You don't do anything "for" a market as an owner. You are making an investment as a business.

For crying out loud, why do I even need to point this out?

 

[GSC2k2*]

Actually, the situation with the Jets was stretched out over years, as well. As early as 1984, Shankerow wanted to build a new arena with help from government money. They refused. By 1989, the old arena was out of date, and Shankerow had a good point. Unfortunately, nobody in Winnipeg saw the need for an arena at the time.

The governemtn did finally throw a bone to the Jets, but not in the way they had hoped. The Government of Manitoba agreed to help cover any financial losses incurred by the team in the early 90's instead of giving financial help for an arena. By the time the governemnt finally decided to explore building an arena, it was too late as Shankerow was looking to sell the team to owners outside of Winnipeg.

At the 11th hour, the business community joined together for a last ditch effert to help save the team. Unfortunately, they could not come to an agreement, and the team headed to Phoenix.

Surely you would concede that an owner wanting to build a new arena in the city for several years is not the same as owner after owner declaring their intention to actually leave and fighting like hell to try to get it to happen. Shenkarow wanting a new arena would not affect attendance at all, in fact.

 

[MoMiester]

My leader?

[/url]

Where did you come up with these prices and figures? And for which team? Cause I'm sure they vary.

I've watched and been to many Oiler games. When I look at the adds, I see company's such as Boston Pizza, Tim Horton's, Scotia bank, various beer brands, Husky, home hardware, coca cola, Esso, Sony, husky, Canadian tire, HSBC, Smirnoff ice, samsung, napa, toyota...all these company's and many more that I've missed, all exist also in Winnipeg, Manitoba. Why wouldn't these company's pay for ad space in the MTS for the similar price Rexall place asks?


Thats why company's pay for advertising space, to increase business. Why wouldn't it in Winnipeg?

QUOTE]

This is where I agree with you on the board ads. One good thing in Canada there seems to be some of the sames for each team but no doubt, they will cost or pay more in certain markets than others.

More than that, team sponsorships are more than ads. They are the major sponsors that get hooked in with the team in many deals, programs, community items and most importantly, they pay a lot of money for this right. My guess is there are different levels of sponsorship and different levels of money paid. You know who they are the minute you walk into the arena, watch a game on TV, or when seeing something with the team in the community. Many are arena name sponsors but many are more. I think of the Minnisota Wild, I think of Polaris and xcel Energy.


That said, many of the same sponsor partners cover the current 6 Canadian teams. I am just not sure if it is for ads or for what would be true corporate sponsorships. Look at some of the big cities like Atlanta who have so many corporate HQs like UPS, Home Depot, Delta, they all sponsor the Thrashers. That is very big money. Also, look at some cities like Denver who have the same 5 founding main sponsors since they begin. They have staked their claim to do so and have paid dearly.

Some teams put them on a web page on their site

http://www.edmontonoilers.com/sponsorship/
http://www.pittsburghpenguins.com/sponsors/partners.php
http://www.bluejackets.com/ice/championship/
http://www.carolinahurricanes.com/custom/rad5FEE9.asp
http://www.floridapanthers.com/Corporate/Pillar/

http://www.sjsharks.com/index2.html
Look at ad box on front page with Sharks corp partners

http://www.coloradoavalanche.com/
Look at the bottom of the page and look at "Founding Partners"

http://www.newyorkislanders.com/index.asp?rd=1
Look at bottom right hand box for corporate sponsors



other examples in press releases
http://www2.ottawasenators.com/eng/...ID=hockey/hockeyNewsDetails.cfm&newsItemID=76


I just asked, who would these be in W'Peg ? Top 5 that would pay for this. Would they pay the money to be a sponsor more than just an advert on the boards.

 

[Hawker14]

My leader?

[/url]

Where did you come up with these prices and figures? And for which team? Cause I'm sure they vary.

I've watched and been to many Oiler games. When I look at the adds, I see company's such as Boston Pizza, Tim Horton's, Scotia bank, various beer brands, Husky, home hardware, coca cola, Esso, Sony, husky, Canadian tire, HSBC, Smirnoff ice, samsung, napa, toyota...all these company's and many more that I've missed, all exist also in Winnipeg, Manitoba. Why wouldn't these company's pay for ad space in the MTS for the similar price Rexall place asks?


Thats why company's pay for advertising space, to increase business. Why wouldn't it in Winnipeg?

QUOTE]

This is where I agree with you on the board ads. One good thing in Canada there seems to be some of the sames for each team but no doubt, they will cost or pay more in certain markets than others.

More than that, team sponsorships are more than ads. They are the major sponsors that get hooked in with the team in many deals, programs, community items and most importantly, they pay a lot of money for this right. My guess is there are different levels of sponsorship and different levels of money paid. You know who they are the minute you walk into the arena, watch a game on TV, or when seeing something with the team in the community. Many are arena name sponsors but many are more. I think of the Minnisota Wild, I think of Polaris and xcel Energy.


That said, many of the same sponsor partners cover the current 6 Canadian teams. I am just not sure if it is for ads or for what would be true corporate sponsorships. Look at some of the big cities like Atlanta who have so many corporate HQs like UPS, Home Depot, Delta, they all sponsor the Thrashers. That is very big money. Also, look at some cities like Denver who have the same 5 founding main sponsors since they begin. They have staked their claim to do so and have paid dearly.

Some teams put them on a web page on their site

http://www.edmontonoilers.com/sponsorship/
http://www.pittsburghpenguins.com/sponsors/partners.php
http://www.bluejackets.com/ice/championship/
http://www.carolinahurricanes.com/custom/rad5FEE9.asp
http://www.floridapanthers.com/Corporate/Pillar/

http://www.sjsharks.com/index2.html
Look at ad box on front page with Sharks corp partners

http://www.coloradoavalanche.com/
Look at the bottom of the page and look at "Founding Partners"

http://www.newyorkislanders.com/index.asp?rd=1
Look at bottom right hand box for corporate sponsors



other examples in press releases
http://www2.ottawasenators.com/eng/...ID=hockey/hockeyNewsDetails.cfm&newsItemID=76


I just asked, who would these be in W'Peg ? Top 5 that would pay for this. Would they pay the money to be a sponsor more than just an advert on the boards.

Manitoba Telecom Services (MTS)
Investors Group (IGM)
Great West Life-Co (GWO)
Can-West Global (CGS)
and let's throw in James Richardson & Sons, Limited, for good measure.

yep, these companies seem to fit "your top 5" criteria. lol.

especially considering they are all, or their major shareholders are, investors of, or sponsors of, the MTS Centre.

it's a pretty impressive list. although there are alot more companies who are corporate sponsors of the MTS Centre. I guess it's easier to put Winnipeg down then to actually find out the degree of corporate support and the non-hockey sales success of the MTS Centre.

it's a great city. i plan on moving back within two years. it's a shame those without first hand knowledge of it claim to be experts.

 

[KeydGV21]

Surely you would concede that an owner wanting to build a new arena in the city for several years is not the same as owner after owner declaring their intention to actually leave and fighting like hell to try to get it to happen. Shenkarow wanting a new arena would not affect attendance at all, in fact.

Really? So you went and asked every single person in Winnipeg at the time to see if this holds true?

 

[Hawker14]

Really? So you went and asked every single person in Winnipeg at the time to see if this holds true?

he's admitted to never having been to winnipeg. but he claims to know the market would fail today in the nhl since it "failed" before.

would you trust a bald barber ?

 

[MoMiester]

Manitoba Telecom Services (MTS)
Investors Group (IGM)
Great West Life-Co (GWO)
Can-West Global (CGS)
and let's throw in James Richardson & Sons, Limited, for good measure.

yep, these companies seem to fit "your top 5" criteria. lol.

especially considering they are all, or their major shareholders are, investors of, or sponsors of, the MTS Centre.

it's a pretty impressive list. although there are alot more companies who are corporate sponsors of the MTS Centre. I guess it's easier to put Winnipeg down then to actually find out the degree of corporate support and the non-hockey sales success of the MTS Centre.

it's a great city. i plan on moving back within two years. it's a shame those without first hand knowledge of it claim to be experts.

Hawker I was asking the question,not putting your city down. Are they willing to spend 4-5 times as much? That is the original point. I would say Cargill, who has large operations in Manitoba, or Agricare, but not sure how much ad/marketing money they have. So again, as per my last response, I was asking the question.

I don't claim to be expert, but I do know quite a bit about business in Manitoba and have spent time there.

The question still remains, will they pay NHL sponsor prices. Only time will tell as I have not heard them say so, but for W'Peg sake, I hope they would if a team comes to W'Peg.

Look at the Wild, a company the size of 3M is in Mpls and I don't think they are a sponsor. (Probably has a box)

I still say there are questions but there are in many cities. I just don't think it is a slam dunk like some people think.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

would you trust a bald barber ?

Absolutely and without question. In case you weren't aware, barbers don't usually cut their own hair.

Maybe a better question would be - would you trust a barber who cuts his own hair?

Who comes up with your analogies? This was the best laugh I had all morning. Thanks!

 

[GSC2k2*]

Really? So you went and asked every single person in Winnipeg at the time to see if this holds true?

What a silly question.

Of course I did.