Did Bettman try and save the Jets?

[Hasbro]

Actually, the situation with the Jets was stretched out over years, as well. As early as 1984, Shankerow wanted to build a new arena with help from government money. They refused. By 1989, the old arena was out of date, and Shankerow had a good point. Unfortunately, nobody in Winnipeg saw the need for an arena at the time.

The governemtn did finally throw a bone to the Jets, but not in the way they had hoped. The Government of Manitoba agreed to help cover any financial losses incurred by the team in the early 90's instead of giving financial help for an arena. By the time the governemnt finally decided to explore building an arena, it was too late as Shankerow was looking to sell the team to owners outside of Winnipeg.

At the 11th hour, the business community joined together for a last ditch effert to help save the team. Unfortunately, they could not come to an agreement, and the team headed to Phoenix.

There were lingering problems from the Spurs move up and flame out to the WHA and the franchise was in horrible shape from the KC days and well on into the New Jersey days.

The economy crashed in Denver in 82 as well.

 

[AdmiralPred]

Really? So you went and asked every single person in Winnipeg at the time to see if this holds true?

I think you've missed the context of the quoted bolded statement in regards to the discussion as a whole, taking the statement at its "stand-alone" value.

An analogy would be seeing only the tree and not the forest.

 

[AdmiralPred]

Look at the Wild, a company the size of 3M is in Mpls and I don't think they are a sponsor. (Probably has a box)

Yeah, but the Twin Cities area is a hub:
Target
Best Buy
SuperValue
Dairy Queen
General Mills
Pentair
Alliant Energy
Xcel Energy
Toro
Northwest Airlines
Land o Lakes
St. Paul's Travelers
US Bancorp
Thrivant Financial
TCF Financial
Wells Fargo
Polaris
Honeywell - I think they are still headquartered or at least have some general offices there.
and Cargill (largest private company in the US)

...just to name a few off the top of my head.

 

[Tyrolean]

If the peg was serious about getting a team back, they should of made the MTS Centre bigger when building it!!!! Sometimes if you build it they will come, or in this case back. (Kansas City as an example) I give them 3 years and they will have a team.

And what happens if the NHL never comes back? You have a huge white elephant that is over capacity for the type of environment it is in.

 

[John Belushi]

Spare us from your egotistical "we're Canadian therefore we must be better than you" drivel.

Face it pal, Phoenix does NOT deserve a franchise. I've hated the Coyotes ever since they poached ol' Cliff Ronning from my 'Nucks

 

[John Belushi]

LOL

Arizona: http://www.arenamaps.com/arenas/Arizona.htm

Wow, I had no idea it was that bad.. there are more in North Vancouver alone...

 

[John Belushi]

I think your reasoning in support of your opinion is flawed. Why should the burden of "deseving a team" be placed on the government? In particular, a government that has "dragged their feet...on Lemieux's new arena"?


You're kidding me? This is the backbone argument of the ignorant, intolerant, northern latitude hockey-snob. It doesn't snow in Phoenix therefore how can you have hockey? Flagstaff on the other hand....

Wow.. now we got Preds fans in here too? When is Carolina dropping by?

The number of arenas in a given city generally shows the DEMAND of hockey in that locale. I don't know many people who watch hockey but have never played it in their life. Face it, many southern states have little hockey heritage, but of course, they obtain an NHL franchise..

 

[Bear of Bad News]

The number of arenas in a given city generally shows the DEMAND of hockey in that locale. I don't know many people who watch hockey but have never played it in their life. Face it, many southern states have little hockey heritage, but of course, they obtain an NHL franchise..

I do. I guess that makes me a bad southern state hockey fan?

 

[John Belushi]

I do. I guess that makes me a bad southern state hockey fan?

I didn't say that. I know many people who don't play the sport but are very knowledgeable. But when a place like Phoenix has such a dearth of arenas, it goes to show that very few people care about winter sports and would much rather sink a birdie putt on the 18th than score the winner in some organized game.

Most people are saying that the Peg doesn't deserve a franchise because they have failed already once, but most don't realize that a sh!tty arena with limited viewing (only the box seats were worthwhile) can contribute to low attendance.

Now, Colorado already had one chance when they had the Rockies, so should that had made them ineligible in '96? No. Face it, Winnipeg does deserve a team and they still probably would have one if it wasn't for some terrible decisions by their politicians.

 

[AdmiralPred]

Wow.. now we got Preds fans in here too? When is Carolina dropping by?

The number of arenas in a given city generally shows the DEMAND of hockey in that locale. I don't know many people who watch hockey but have never played it in their life. Face it, many southern states have little hockey heritage, but of course, they obtain an NHL franchise..

Page through the thread, I am 1) not the only Preds fan posting in here, 2) been contributing since post #2, so I am not just "dropping by", and 3) live in Wisconsin at a latitude several arc seconds north of the ACC. I'm a Preds fan by default. Demand for hockey in a local can be defined in so many different ways, you'd need to be more specific. If by more arenas you mean that because there are more arenas, of any kind, in Winnipeg than there are in Phoenix that Winnipeg is more deserving of a NHL franchise, then I think your reasoning is flawed.

As to hockey heritage, well, you got me there - I've been to Nashville, Phoenix, Raleigh, and Louisville (we'll leave them out) for pro games. I would say that while hockey is relatively new, on a grand scale, to those cities it blends quite nicely with the heritage that already exists (Brewers' Spring Training and a Coyotes game, catching the Preds and then hittin' the blues clubs in dowtown Nashville). However, when is hockey heritage the determining factor of where to place a franchise?

Most people are saying that the Peg doesn't deserve a franchise because they have failed already once, but most don't realize that a sh!tty arena with limited viewing (only the box seats were worthwhile) can contribute to low attendance.

Ask the people who attended games at the old Phoenix arena.

 

[kdb209]

Wow.. now we got Preds fans in here too? When is Carolina dropping by?

The number of arenas in a given city generally shows the DEMAND of hockey in that locale. I don't know many people who watch hockey but have never played it in their life. Face it, many southern states have little hockey heritage, but of course, they obtain an NHL franchise..

Uhh nope - at least not in the US.

The VAST, VAST majority of US hockey fans have NEVER played a game of ice hockey in their lives.

I'm sure gsc2k2 will chime in again with the fact that there is no evidence whatsoever to justify the claim that youth hockey has any effect on developing an NHL market - an opinion I generally agree with. If anything, interest in youth hockey is the result of the growth of an NHL market, not the cause.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I didn't say that. I know many people who don't play the sport but are very knowledgeable. But when a place like Phoenix has such a dearth of arenas, it goes to show that very few people care about winter sports and would much rather sink a birdie putt on the 18th than score the winner in some organized game.

But it takes time to build that level of support. I started working with Denver area youth hockey associations when I moved here in 1995 (coincidentally, the same year the Avs came to town). The demand has grown substantially every year since.

We've also got (I'm guessing) ten times as many sheets in the Denver metro area as we did in 1995, and the same for skate sharpening and equipment (anyone else from Denver here may remember making the drive to Precision Edge on Broadway just to get your blades cut).

And when the kids are involved, the parents get involved. Aside from my "competitive" team, I play on three or four "recreational" level teams. I would bet that half of those players are adults who didn't even start skating until their children began. And now they're hooked - a lot weren't even hockey fans until their kids started.

That's why I'll always be a vocal supporter of promoting the NHL in non-traditional markets. Because I've seen it work here.

 

[John Belushi]

Page through the thread, I am 1) not the only Preds fan posting in here, 2) been contributing since post #2, so I am not just "dropping by", and 3) live in Wisconsin at a latitude several arc seconds north of the ACC. I'm a Preds fan by default. Demand for hockey in a local can be defined in so many different ways, you'd need to be more specific. If by more arenas you mean that because there are more arenas, of any kind, in Winnipeg than there are in Phoenix that Winnipeg is more deserving of a NHL franchise, then I think your reasoning is flawed.

As to hockey heritage, well, you got me there - I've been to Nashville, Phoenix, Raleigh, and Louisville (we'll leave them out) for pro games. I would say that while hockey is relatively new, on a grand scale, to those cities it blends quite nicely with the heritage that already exists (Brewers' Spring Training and a Coyotes game, catching the Preds and then hittin' the blues clubs in dowtown Nashville). However, when is hockey heritage the determining factor of where to place a franchise?


Ask the people who attended games at the old Phoenix arena.

I'm using that as a blanket term referring to common interest in the sport, not just some place that hockey has history in. Lets go nuts here and say Africa is in a position to obtain an NHL franchise. They have no hockey fans (that I know of) and possibly no arenas. A bad choice, right?

Now, everyone who isn't stricken with autism (and some that are) are aware of hockey in Canada. Then, I'm hearing quotes from Marian Hossa who says that he is NEVER recognized in Georgia
and that he actually had a waiter once who didn't even know what hockey was!

I support hockey in Nashville, they are not the problem. But places like Atlanta, Phoenix, Carolina (Who won the cup last year but still aren't selling out games) and Florida. Places that really do not deserve NHL franchises. Do you know how painful it is to see such a promising Canadian team like Quebec City move to Colorado, only to win a cup the following year?

Average people in Winnipeg and Quebec LIVE hockey. They support it unquestionably, and the Montreal-Quebec rivalry was one of the best there ever was. Now there are talks of such a storied franchise like the Penguins moving to Kansas City or Houston?

The Pens are in the position to win the Stanley Cup within a few years but their fans aren't likely to see that happen since they have no new arena.

Crosby/Malkin = Sakic/Forsberg

 

[AdmiralPred]

I'm using that as a blanket term referring to common interest in the sport, not just some place that hockey has history in. Lets go nuts here and say Africa is in a position to obtain an NHL franchise. They have no hockey fans (that I know of) and possibly no arenas. A bad choice, right?

Now, everyone who isn't stricken with autism (and some that are) are aware of hockey in Canada. Then, I'm hearing quotes from Marian Hossa who says that he is NEVER recognized in Georgia
and that he actually had a waiter once who didn't even know what hockey was!

I support hockey in Nashville, they are not the problem. But places like Atlanta, Phoenix, Carolina (Who won the cup last year but still aren't selling out games) and Florida. Places that really do not deserve NHL franchises. Do you know how painful it is to see such a promising Canadian team like Quebec City move to Colorado, only to win a cup the following year?

Average people in Winnipeg and Quebec LIVE hockey. They support it unquestionably, and the Montreal-Quebec rivalry was one of the best there ever was. Now there are talks of such a storied franchise like the Penguins moving to Kansas City or Houston?

Then I guess I need explained to me what "problem" exists without the word "deserve" being part of the explanation. If it's simply the "problem" that Winnipeg would sell out 41 games in their 15,500 seat arena the year after they won the Cup and Carolina hasn't - then save it. Search the Penguins/Nords/Jets/Whalers related threads. Search back a few pages in this thread for the likely retort.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

Face it pal, Phoenix does NOT deserve a franchise. I've hated the Coyotes ever since they poached ol' Cliff Ronning from my 'Nucks

Face it pal, we're here to stay whether or not you deem us worthy customers, whatever "deserving a franchise" is supposed to mean.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

I don't know many people who watch hockey but have never played it in their life.

I know many people who don't play the sport but are very knowledgeable.

 

[John Belushi]

I don't know "MANY". I'm not famililar with your understanding of vocabulary, but many does not mean "none". There are a few people I know who don't play the sport but understand it, but a majority who haven't played it do NOT know what they are talking about.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

I don't know "MANY". I'm not famililar with your understanding of vocabulary, but many does not mean "none". There are a few people I know who don't play the sport but understand it, but a majority who haven't played it do NOT know what they are talking about.

I know many people who don't play the sport but are very knowledgeable.

You know many but you don't know many. Ok.

 

[Crosby87.*]

lmfao

 

[GSC2k2*]

You know many but you don't know many. Ok.

This post rules. Quite a lot.

 

[KrisKing*]

That's why I'll always be a vocal supporter of promoting the NHL in non-traditional markets. Because I've seen it work here.

At the expense of people who eat, sleep, and breathe hockey? That makes perfect sense. Screw the fans we already got, let's force feed it to people that don't give a **** right now, but maybe, just maybe one day they will. Actually, that should be the nhl's new slogan.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

At the expense of people who eat, sleep, and breathe hockey? That makes perfect sense. Screw the fans we already got, let's force feed it to people that don't give a **** right now, but maybe, just maybe one day they will. Actually, that should be the nhl's new slogan.

Right, because there's only one National Hockey League franchise in the entire world, and if we give it to a southern market, then the people who "eat, sleep and breathe hockey" will have no team! NO TEAM! What about the children? WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!

Seriously. You keep treating this as if it's an either/or proposition, when in fact, it's a growing pie. When hockey becomes popular in Phoenix, then NHL-calibre players will eventually come from Phoenix. More NHL-calibre players allows for more NHL teams.

If you'd like to be territorial and provincial (pun intended) on the subject, then you (yes, you!) are hurting the game's growth. You're part of the small core of people on here who genuinely doesn't want to see the NHL ever become anything but a minor league.

My opinions on the matter are well-reasoned and justifiable. You, on the other hand, seem to be standing off to the side, shouting "BETTMAN!" "SOUTHERN MARKETS!" "NEW SWEATERS!" as loudly and incoherently as possible. Well-done.

 

[KrisKing*]

Right, because there's only one National Hockey League franchise in the entire world, and if we give it to a southern market, then the people who "eat, sleep and breathe hockey" will have no team! NO TEAM! What about the children? WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!

Seriously. You keep treating this as if it's an either/or proposition, when in fact, it's a growing pie. When hockey becomes popular in Phoenix, then NHL-calibre players will eventually come from Phoenix. More NHL-calibre players allows for more NHL teams.

If you'd like to be territorial and provincial (pun intended) on the subject, then you (yes, you!) are hurting the game's growth. You're part of the small core of people on here who genuinely doesn't want to see the NHL ever become anything but a minor league.

My opinions on the matter are well-reasoned and justifiable. You, on the other hand, seem to be standing off to the side, shouting "BETTMAN!" "SOUTHERN MARKETS!" "NEW SWEATERS!" as loudly and incoherently as possible. Well-done.

1. It is an either/or proposition. There are not an infinite number of franchises floating around to go to any city that wants one. Right now there's maybe one, and hopefully in the future more (florida, nashville, carolina, phoenix)

2. Your comment about how when hockey becomes poplular in Phoenix, then NHL calibre players will come from there, is asinine. So we should force hockey down these people's throats, in hopes that they will take to it some day in the future, while leaving out in the cold a ready-made fan base that is absolutley dying for the NHL? And it is seriously naive to think that kids are going to start playing hockey in Arizona in huge numbers. It will never be as big there as it is in Canada unless global warming is reversed and ponds freeze in arizona so kids are forced to play hockey 7 months of the year because their football and baseball fields are under snow. People in Canada don't play cricket, and Americans don't play hockey, some things won't change.

3. I doubt that I personally am hurting the games growth, since I live in Manitoba, where there is no NHL team, and watch a ton of games on tv, and even buy some NHL merchandise on occasion. In my world, the NHL is major league. That's not the case in the US, and that's not my fault, and even if it was, I wouldn't care.

And as for your last comments, grow up.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Richard, don't take my lack of response to your comments as a sign that I don't still like you. You're just not interesting any longer.

 

[KrisKing*]

Yeah I guess I have been beating you up with common sense all over this board lately.