Crunching the Numbers: Why Re-Building is Harder than Ever

[Dotter]

The Wings retained a portion of Kindl's salary. That's embarrassing since he was only making 2.4 million.

Do you seriously think a few extra 6th round picks is going to make any difference? The Wings need multiple first round picks if they hope to ever get out of purgatory.

This team is going nowhere.

Hold on... getting dizzy from all your flopping, talking in circles, and moving goal posts.

Lets recap:

Me: Trade Daley, he has value

You: No he doesn't, nobody will trade for him

Me: Kindl just 2 years ago, for example, returned a 6th rounder

You: No fair...a 6th doesn't count!!111 **stomps feet and pouts**

Wow, freaking amazing!

 

[WingedWheel1987]

What goal posts? The Wings need elite talent if they want to rebuild. It's why they need to be targeting a bottom three pick. 400 6th round picks won't make any difference.

No goal post moving. Just common sense.

Trading for a bunch of 6th round picks does not mean a team is rebuilding. Unless you think the Hawks and Penguins are also rebuilding.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Daley is a great depth defenseman for any team, especially ones that need Stanley Cup experience. Players like him will also be desired at trade deadlines.

What on earth are people seeing in this guy?

 

[Dotter]

What on earth are people seeing in this guy?

When teams want to win a Stanley cup, do they pick Brendan -2 goal- Smith, or does the playoff team want Trevor -2 time cup champion- Daley?

If a team wants to win a cup, you go for the proven NHLer and playoff contributor.

 

[Shaman464]

When teams want to win a Stanley cup, do they pick Brendan -2 goal- Smith, or does the playoff team want Trevor -2 time cup champion- Daley?

If a team wants to win a cup, you go for the proven NHLer and playoff contributor.

Smith also is younger and reeked of needing a change of scenery. He was a gamble. Right now you're Vaneking yourself into overvaluing a player that is trending in the wrong direction and still is a season and a half away from being tradeable.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

When teams want to win a Stanley cup, do they pick Brendan -2 goal- Smith, or does the playoff team want Trevor -2 time cup champion- Daley?

If a team wants to win a cup, you go for the proven NHLer and playoff contributor.

I would be very disappointed if those were my only two options to contend for a cup.

And him having two cups and being a depth player on a cup team last season doesn't make him a worthwhile piece right now. What does Daley bring to a team right now that would make him worth giving up a decent asset for a cup run? I keep seeing people talk about Daley positively but nothing about his game makes me happy we have him.

 

[StargateSG1]

Rebuilding teams don't hand out half decade long contracts to 30+ players.

Rebuilding teams do not spend to the cap every season.

Rebuilding teams don't ice the oldest roster in the league.

You live in a fantasy land.

The Wings are just a poorly managed franchise.

[MOD]
In August, they were telling everyone that playoffs is definitely possible and Kenny knows how to build the winning team.
After the second losing streak, the same people are telling everyone that the "Stealth Tank" was the plan from the beginning.
Waste of time.

 

[Dotter]

Smith also is younger and reeked of needing a change of scenery. He was a gamble. Right now you're Vaneking yourself into overvaluing a player that is trending in the wrong direction and still is a season and a half away from being tradeable.

If a team is trading at TDL to stock up for a deep playoff run, I doubt the [younger] age is the factor. It comes down to experience and who gives them the best chance to win the ultimate goal, the Stanley Cup.

 

[Ezekial]

Stay on hockeybuzz if you want an echo chamber.

 

[Dotter]

I would be very disappointed if those were my only two options to contend for a cup.

And him having two cups and being a depth player on a cup team last season doesn't make him a worthwhile piece right now. What does Daley bring to a team right now that would make him worth giving up a decent asset for a cup run? I keep seeing people talk about Daley positively but nothing about his game makes me happy we have him.

Last season, Letang was injured through the playoffs... right?

You're trying to find an argument that isn't there. Daley is a depth guy that DID, HAS and CAN help a team win Stanley Cups. Argue he has no value, but I'll bet you dollar to donuts he'll get traded next season and bring back a "better than expected" return (if healthy).

Daley is not Roman Rosi, so lets not act like he's going to bring a top 3 1st rounder and seven 2nds and 3rds.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Last season, Letang was injured through the playoffs... right?

You're trying to find an argument that isn't there. Daley is a depth guy that DID, HAS and CAN help a team win Stanley Cups. Argue he has no value, but I'll bet you dollar to donuts he'll get traded next season and bring back a "better than expected" return (if healthy).

Daley is not Roman Rosi, so lets not act like he's going to bring a top 3 1st rounder and seven 2nds and 3rds.

You still haven't said what he brings to a team other than him being on a team that won a cup. Him being on that roster doesn't necessarily make him valuable now and in the future.

 

[Claypool]

You still haven't said what he brings to a team other than him being on a team that won a cup. Him being on that roster doesn't necessarily make him valuable now and in the future.

Experience. Every year teams want experienced depth defensemen for playoff runs.

 

[Frk It]

Teams don't often pay much for 34/35 year old defenseman that don't produce pts. Daley also has a NTC.

 

[Dotter]

You still haven't said what he brings to a team other than him being on a team that won a cup. Him being on that roster doesn't necessarily make him valuable now and in the future.

Stability and reliability. He offers more than Andrej Meszaros did when he was traded for a 3rd rounder. He'll offer more than Raphael Diaz did when he was traded for a 5th rounder. He might be what Jordan Leopold was worth in 2013 at the age of 34; 2nd and a conditional 5th rounder.

In any event, as proven above, a depth dman is a commodity at the TDL.

 

[Dotter]

Teams don't often pay much for 34/35 year old defenseman that don't produce pts. Daley also has a NTC.

34 year old Jordan Leopold (who scored 2 goals and 10 points) in the season he was traded for a 2nd and conditional 5th rounder. So yeah, they do trade for older dmen.

 

[Frk It]

34 year old Jordan Leopold (who scored 2 goals and 10 points) in the season he was traded for a 2nd and conditional 5th rounder. So yeah, they do trade for older dmen.

Nah, try Falk (trash throwaway player) and a 5th.

How come Daley didn't get that when he was traded 2 years ago? Pittsburgh got him by giving up their worst player.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

34 year old Jordan Leopold (who scored 2 goals and 10 points) in the season he was traded for a 2nd and conditional 5th rounder. So yeah, they do trade for older dmen.

You mean Justin Falk and a 5th?

 

[Ezekial]

Teams don't often pay much for 34/35 year old defenseman that don't produce pts. Daley also has a NTC.

I agree with Daley's value, but his NTC becomes modified (15 team no-trade) 10 days before the 18-19 TDL and his actual pay is highest this season and AAV pretty low before retention.

So I'm hoping but not expecting.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

[MOD]
In August, they were telling everyone that playoffs is definitely possible and Kenny knows how to build the winning team.
After the second losing streak, the same people are telling everyone that the "Stealth Tank" was the plan from the beginning.
Waste of time.

Anyone with a modicum of brain power would never say that a "Stealth Tank" was planned or is what is happening. Stealth tank is used by people trying to appease the BLERG THEY'RE NOT REBUILDING AT ALL people who bleat till the cows come home that every single person who has ever been associated with the Detroit Red Wings from 2008 to now is a complete nincompoop. The Wings wanted to be competitive in terms of the playoffs. They are not. It doesn't mean that they are poorly managed, it doesn't mean that Ken Holland is throwing his feces against the wall and picking bugs out of Jimmy Devellano's hair. Guys who they thought would take steps forward have not. The goaltending has not gotten appreciably better. Zetterberg has taken a step back. However, for every game they get their doors blow off, they've had a couple that they're right in and just manage to lose. Larkin, Mantha, AA and other young guys have gotten shots to play and play big minutes. If they're not playing as big of minutes now, it's because they stalled and aren't playing well.

The Wings are rebuilding, it's just not in the way that the NHL prospect board hivemind has had it drilled into their head that you rebuild. They're not tearing up the floor boards to rebuild their house. They're rebuilding the same way that if you had a house you would rebuild it. Keep everything as stable as you can while you bring in new, sturdier boards. Maybe they're too old school and will get themselves caught in purgatory by doing it, but I simply can't fault a team for wanting to win and a management group for trusting in their guys to make it happen. Blash should definitely be gone... frankly, he probably shouldn't have been hired.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Giving Jonathan Ericsson a six year contract because Kenny felt that the Wings didn't have anyone in the pipeline ready to make the Wings sounds like a poorly managed franchise. Jonathan Ericsson is not some kind of special talent that should be hard to replace.

Giving Justin Abdelkader a seven year contract despite the fact that Kenny knew Datsyuk was retiring at the end of the season sounds like something a poorly managed franchise would do.

I can keep going if you'd like.

The Wings aren't rebuilding. They are just delaying the inevitable rebuild that has to happen. Kenny is trying to rebuild on a foundation made of quicksand.

 

[kliq]

Right.
Trading a 25 year old fairly cheap center because YOU HAVE NO ****ING CAP ROOM to sign a 23 year old for $1.5M -- that's EXACTLY HOW YOU REBUILD - to a T.

If the Wings were rebuilding to a T, Helm, Nielsen and Abdelkader and Kronwall and Ericsson and Howard would be trade bait.

They traded Sheahan because they gave up on him, I think any team would be willing to trade a a 25 year old that they believe is going nowhere. He was no longer a young kid with promise, and wasn't old enough or ever good enough to be a vet that kids could lean on for guidance.

 

[Claypool]

Giving Jonathan Ericsson a six year contract because Kenny felt that the Wings didn't have anyone in the pipeline ready to make the Wings sounds like a poorly managed franchise. Jonathan Ericsson is not some kind of special talent that should be hard to replace.

You're complaining about a contract that was signed four years ago. Nobody cares.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

You're complaining about a contract that was signed four years ago. Nobody cares.

OK should i complain about Frans Nielsen's contract instead? That was a horrendous signing too and it's more recent.

 

[Claypool]

OK should i complain about Frans Nielsen's contract instead? That was a horrendous signing too and it's more recent.

You worry too much. His contract is very movable, especially after next season. It's hardly an anchor for the Red Wings right now. There will be a demand for him in a year or two. If not, they can always buy him out in two more years once his salary drops to $2.5 million.

 

[kliq]

Giving Jonathan Ericsson a six year contract because Kenny felt that the Wings didn't have anyone in the pipeline ready to make the Wings sounds like a poorly managed franchise. Jonathan Ericsson is not some kind of special talent that should be hard to replace.

Giving Justin Abdelkader a seven year contract despite the fact that Kenny knew Datsyuk was retiring at the end of the season sounds like something a poorly managed franchise would do.

I can keep going if you'd like.

The Wings aren't rebuilding. They are just delaying the inevitable rebuild that has to happen. Kenny is trying to rebuild on a foundation made of quicksand.

I dont think the answer is as simple as you make it out to be, because when managing a team your mind set changes year to year.

When they signed E to his extension which I believe was in 2013, they were definitely not doing a complete re-build, they wanted to win. They still had D & Z close to their primes, they had a bunch of top prospects in the system, and one of the best coaches in the world. Add in the steak, they were still in.

The Abby contract was given out at a time (2016 I think) where they were looking to keep the streak alive. What they were doing at this time was trying to re-build while staying competitive. Not saying I agree or disagree with the method, just simply pointing out the reality of the situation.

I think the mindset changed last year around the trade deadline. Don't get me wrong, the Wings clearly seem to be anti-tank and want to stay competetive, but I think to say they are not re-building now is just the result of bitterness.