OT: Covid-19 (Part 46) Under Pressure

[ghost85875]

What the hell are you talking about?

Care to write a constructive reply?

 

[Licou]

The point is ethics.

It's ethic to tell someone the truth.

It's also ethic to give the freedom of choice.

It's not ethic to discriminate against those who are not willing to make a particular choice.

And you know the moment is coming, that we aren't going to have any choice.

In a vacuum you are right.

But why are such arguments always ignore that there is a massive sanitary crisis that is threatening the lives of the most vulnerable, as well as the ability for our health care system to dispense care, not only to covid-sick people but also eventually to anyone ill ridden individual.

 

[waffledave]

Vax passport, a lot of employers forcing their employees to take the vax, etc.

Sounds like the freedom of choice is quite fleeting.

You can quit your job if you don't agree. My job doesn't let me smoke pot all day, are they infringing on my rights?

 

[MJG]

The point is ethics.

It's ethic to tell someone the truth.

It's also ethic to give the freedom of choice.

It's not ethic to discriminate against those who are not willing to make a particular choice.

And you know the moment is coming, that we aren't going to have any choice.

I find it amusing that you’re trying to drive home a point about ethics. Not saying you’re wrong. But I can easily make a point on the other side that getting a vaccine to protect the vulnerable is the ethical thing to do.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Care to write a constructive reply?

Care to stop speaking in riddles? Please tell us how the time is coming where we have no choice... What exactly does that mean?

 

[dcyhabs]

You can quit your job if you don't agree. My job doesn't let me smoke pot all day, are they infringing on my rights?

A chef doesn't have to wash his hands or cook properly at home, though I suppose he could be sued by guests and family. He has to wash his hands when he works in a restaurant, and he has to ensure others do the same.

 

[Treb]

The point is ethics.

It's ethic to tell someone the truth.

It's also ethic to give the freedom of choice.

It's not ethic to discriminate against those who are not willing to make a particular choice.

And you know the moment is coming, that we aren't going to have any choice.

They are not forcing you to vaccinate. However, you have to live with the consequences of your choice. That's how society work and there is nothing new or unethical about that.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Vax passport, a lot of employers forcing their employees to take the vax, etc.

Sounds like the freedom of choice is quite fleeting.

That is not the same thing as having “no choice.”

Working in close proximity to co-workers when unvaxed brings risks to OTHER people. So if they aren’t willing to get vaxed, they have every right to move onto other employment. That is their CHOICE.

Do not post this stuff as though the time is coming where people will be strapped down and forced to take it. The suggestion that the time is coming where there will be no choice for anyone is utter nonsense.

 

[JtotheC]

The point is ethics.

It's ethic to tell someone the truth.

It's also ethic to give the freedom of choice.

It's not ethic to discriminate against those who are not willing to make a particular choice.

And you know the moment is coming, that we aren't going to have any choice.

You fail to mention that autonomy does not exist in isolation. Also, freedom of choice involves making an informed decision. But many are not making a fully informed decision (because of misinformation for example). So how can one be fully free to make a choice? This is a false sense of autonomy. Ethics also involves assessment of benefits and harms. So if you're going to bring up the concept of ethics you will need to go in details because there are layers to this. It's not just free or not free.

 

[ghost85875]

You can quit your job if you don't agree. My job doesn't let me smoke pot all day, are they infringing on my rights?

That's quite a weak argument.

 

[ghost85875]

In a vacuum you are right.

But why are such arguments always ignore that there is a massive sanitary crisis that is threatening the lives of the most vulnerable, as well as the ability for our health care system to dispense care, not only to covid-sick people but also eventually to anyone ill ridden individual.

I find it amusing that you’re trying to drive home a point about ethics. Not saying you’re wrong. But I can easily make a point on the other side that getting a vaccine to protect the vulnerable is the ethical thing to do.

Yes, of course. I was only introducing my thought.

"Free or not free' is the default settings, it takes a great deal to override some of them in particular situations. Such as you're not free to murder someone willingly, etc.

 

[ghost85875]

They are not forcing you to vaccinate. However, you have to live with the consequences of your choice. That's how society work and there is nothing new or unethical about that.

You just defended the oppressors of LGBT+ and of minorities, back when they had overwhelming power.

Back then, gay people were fired routinely if the boss found out. Also, they were socially persecuted, denounced in the newspapers, etc.

They also used health arguments, among others.

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

The word discriminate gets used far too frequently these days. We all have to make a choice. All choices have consequences. Consequences is not a form discrimination. I had high hopes for the internet, it's been failing our society hard.

 

[Treb]

You just defended the oppressors of LGBT+ and of minorities, back when they had overwhelming power.

Back then, gay people were fired routinely if the boss found out. Also, they were socially persecuted, denounced in the newspapers, etc.

They also used health arguments, among others.

You don't choose to be LGBT. You don't choose to be black. You choose not to take a vaccine.

The fact you are equating those together is utterly disgusting. What's next, vaccine mandate is the same as the holocaust?

 

[waffledave]

That's quite a weak argument.

What's the difference? Pot is legal here. Why should me employer be allowed to dictate what legal activities I do at work?

 

[ghost85875]

You don't choose to be LGBT. You don't choose to be black. You choose not to take a vaccine.

The fact you are equating those together is utterly disgusting. What's next, vaccine mandate is the same as the holocaust?

Did you just assume that there isn't genderfluid people?

 

[Treb]

Did you just assume that there isn't genderfluid people?

Being genderfluid is not a choice either.

 

[llamateizer]

Vax passport, a lot of employers forcing their employees to take the vax, etc.

Sounds like the freedom of choice is quite fleeting.

The employer can put the requirements that he wants to.
Many employers will fire you if you have a criminal record. Same thing for random drug testing, or not hiring people born from certain countries.

Freedom of choice is different of freedom of consequences.

 

[SquiddFX]

You don't choose to be LGBT. You don't choose to be black. You choose not to take a vaccine.

The fact you are equating those together is utterly disgusting. What's next, vaccine mandate is the same as the holocaust?

Anti-Vaxxers were already equating the vaccine passport to wearing a Star of David under Nazi occupation. Which is utterly psychotic

 

[Treb]

Anti-Vaxxers were already equating the vaccine passport to wearing a Star of David under Nazi occupation. Which is utterly psychotic

I know that. Just wanted to see how deep he is into the rabbit hole.

 

[ghost85875]

Being genderfluid is not a choice either.

That's not how some genderfluid people feel.

And you said "They are not forcing you to vaccinate. However, you have to live with the consequences of your choice. That's how society work and there is nothing new or unethical about that."

Why are you trying to pin choice vs attribute? That's a horrifically bad line to draw.

Basically, you're saying it's ok for someone to be discriminated, persecuted or killed if they dare to belief a different religion in an intolerant society, or dare to raise the little finger in a society who deemed it to be heavily punished, etc.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You just defended the oppressors of LGBT+ and of minorities, back when they had overwhelming power.

Back then, gay people were fired routinely if the boss found out. Also, they were socially persecuted, denounced in the newspapers, etc.

They also used health arguments, among others.

It's incredibly ignorant (not to mention deeply offensive) to try to compare the actual oppression that some groups have experienced to anti-vaxxers having to stay away from restaurants because they DECIDED not to get the vaccine.

 

[Treb]

That's not how some genderfluid people feel.

And you said "They are not forcing you to vaccinate. However, you have to live with the consequences of your choice. That's how society work and there is nothing new or unethical about that."

Why are you trying to pin choice vs feature? That's a horrifically bad line to draw.

Basically, you're saying it's ok for someone to be discriminated, persecuted or killed if they dare to belief a different religion in an intolerant society, or dare to raise the little finger in a society who deemed it to be heavily punished.

Genderfluid people do not choose to be genderfluid, they are genderfluid.

Why is it a bad line to draw? This is how society currently operates.

Again, you are trying to pin on me things I never said. We are not persecuting or killing unvaccinated people.

Not surprised you're trying to do disgusting parallels again.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That's not how some genderfluid people feel.

And you said "They are not forcing you to vaccinate. However, you have to live with the consequences of your choice. That's how society work and there is nothing new or unethical about that."

Why are you trying to pin choice vs attribute? That's a horrifically bad line to draw.

Basically, you're saying it's ok for someone to be discriminated, persecuted or killed if they dare to belief a different religion in an intolerant society, or dare to raise the little finger in a society who deemed it to be heavily punished, etc.

There's a huge difference between 'persecution' and keeping people safe. You shouldn't need this explained to you.

A religious belief isn't going to put you in a hospital if somebody breathes on you or your food. A covid infected person can.

Don't want the vaccine? Cool. Don't take it. But don't blame others for wanting to protect themselves from you.

 

[MXD]

From 15 Oct, every Health Worker (private or public) will have to be 2X vaccinated. Failure to comply will result in Leave Without Pay.