OT: Covid-19 (Part 46) Under Pressure

[Lshap]

Whether it's the tip of a vaccine syringe, the escalating Delta cases, schools reopening, or the reality of vaccine 'passports', everybody's got a story to tell...

Click to read more...

 

[Treb]

@MasterD , while I do agree that booster for the general population are not totally warranted in Canada, there is more reasoning for it in the US based on the bigger unvaccinated population and rampant cases.

@Lafleurs Guy , don't put the scientists saying we don't need boosters yet together with the ones arguing for HCQ or saying the vaccines are dangerous. It's a very different situation. There is reliable data showing vaccines still work.

Currently, I don't see the need for a booster in most cases. That doesn't mean I'm against booster or think they are bad.

Of course, it's different for the elderly, immunocompromised and people in high risk areas. For example, I'd consider a booster if I lived in Florida, but not for now in Québec.

I believe the CDC is being overly cautious with the booster for everyone and I'm not alone in the scientific community.

 

[Kriss E]

Never heard of pharma companies choosing the studies they release to favor their products? Ok. Took years for Vioxx to be taken off market even if we knew if caused premature deaths. But sure, keep thinking pharmas are in business only for the greater good of humanity.

Of course, like a bunch of other industries. I never said Big Pharma is in it only for the Greater Good. Matter of fact, I said ''there are issues with Big Pharma, no doubt''.
Where we differ is I don't take that to just spew out random conspiracies.

Do they want their vaccines to become mandatory worldwide??? Definitely from a business sense, why wouldn't they? Does that mean they're going to lie about the need for it? No.
I'm going to trust the medical consensus and recommendations, otherwise, you can spiral down a deep hole of conspiracies ending up believing whatever you want.

 

[Milhouse40]

85.8% of population above 12 years old got at least one dose (Only 14.2% to go)
76.5% of that population fully vaccinated

75.1% of the total population got at least one dose.

 

[la25ecoupe]

So Pfizer vaccine effectiveness against Delta infection is decreasing to ~40% after 4 months..

Booster for Delta will be strongly suggested in several months.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

@MasterD , while I do agree that booster for the general population are not totally warranted in Canada, there is more reasoning for it in the US based on the bigger unvaccinated population and rampant cases.

@Lafleurs Guy , don't put the scientists saying we don't need boosters yet together with the ones arguing for HCQ or saying the vaccines are dangerous. It's a very different situation. There is reliable data showing vaccines still work.

Currently, I don't see the need for a booster in most cases. That doesn't mean I'm against booster or think they are bad.

Of course, it's different for the elderly, immunocompromised and people in high risk areas. For example, I'd consider a booster if I lived in Florida, but not for now in Québec.

I believe the CDC is being overly cautious with the booster for everyone and I'm not alone in the scientific community.

Very well. If there is SERIOUS debate on it, then it’s a different story. But when I hear that these scientists are outside the mainstream, then I’m not going to take it seriously.

I’m adamant on the vaccine. It works. As for boosters, next steps... that’s fine, I’ll wait for scientific consensus. If and when it’s reached, then I will follow that direction. I’m not a scientist and would never claim to be one. But I’m not going to follow Dr Quack off Facebook or take anything there and treat it with any kind of credibility.

 

[Treb]

So Pfizer vaccine effectiveness against Delta infection is decreasing to ~40% after 4 months..

Booster for Delta will be strongly suggested in several months.

Source?

 

[Kriss E]

Source?

Not sure about 40% but..
Vaccines Are Less Effective Against Delta—And Pfizer’s Protection Wanes Rapidly—But Are The Best Way To Protect Against Covid, Large Study Finds (forbes.com)

 

[Treb]

Very well. If there is SERIOUS debate on it, then it’s a different story. But when I hear that these scientists are outside the mainstream, then I’m not going to take it seriously.

I’m adamant on the vaccine. It works. As for boosters, next steps... that’s fine, I’ll wait for scientific consensus. If and when it’s reached, then I will follow that direction. I’m not a scientist and would never claim to be one.

Yeah, @MasterD did a disservice by calling them outside of mainstream. The debate is definitely still on in the scientific mainstream.

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

Not sure about 40% but..
Vaccines Are Less Effective Against Delta—And Pfizer’s Protection Wanes Rapidly—But Are The Best Way To Protect Against Covid, Large Study Finds (forbes.com)

This is PCR positivity that's concerned in those studies. It can be 5% efficient for all I care, if it prevents deaths and hospitalisations there's no valid reason to deny it.

 

[Cypruss]

Of course, like a bunch of other industries. I never said Big Pharma is in it only for the Greater Good. Matter of fact, I said ''there are issues with Big Pharma, no doubt''.
Where we differ is I don't take that to just spew out random conspiracies.

Do they want their vaccines to become mandatory worldwide??? Definitely from a business sense, why wouldn't they? Does that mean they're going to lie about the need for it? No.
I'm going to trust the medical consensus and recommendations, otherwise, you can spiral down a deep hole of conspiracies ending up believing whatever you want.

Pfizer to pay $2.3 billion, agrees to criminal plea

They took felony convictions in the settlement. Big Pharma does lie about their products to produce sales. Coerce doctors to prescribe, hide adverse affects from their trials, alter data to mislead the true results of their medicines. People died from their lies and manipulation of the truth. They continued to sell products the FDA rejected as unsafe.

Not going down the conspiracy trail in this post I don't believe, but having faith that Big Pharma will not lie to you to sell their product is, in my opinion, the much bigger conspiracy theory than people who dare to question their money and motives.

 

[Treb]

About boosters:

 

[Lshap]

Pfizer to pay $2.3 billion, agrees to criminal plea

They took felony convictions in the settlement. Big Pharma does lie about their products to produce sales. Coerce doctors to prescribe, hide adverse affects from their trials, alter data to mislead the true results of their medicines. People died from their lies and manipulation of the truth. They continued to sell products the FDA rejected as unsafe.

Not going down the conspiracy trail in this post I don't believe, but having faith that Big Pharma will not lie to you to sell their product is, in my opinion, the much bigger conspiracy theory than people who dare to question their money and motives.

You can find liars everywhere. The question is, who has more transparency and accountability – scientists whose work is being scrutinized by every credible institution across the planet, or the self-proclaimed experts blogging from their basement?

 

[Milhouse40]

When it comes to boosters and vaccines effectiveness, I think it's time to concentrate on our country alone (while not completely brush aside what's going elsewhere). There's now too much variable right now.

- The interval between doses
- The vaccination rate
- The measures in place
- What type of vaccine has been used
- The demographics of each place
- Delta prevalence

As for now, for Canada there's absolutely no need for a booster shot as of today other than those with problems with their immune system. Might sing a different tune in 3-4 weeks, but as of today, this is an American thing and their situation might play a role in that decision.

Canada is not at the same place.

More vaccination, mask mandates = Less spread = Less cases = Less breakthrough cases = Less need of a boosters shot at this point.

 

[waffledave]

So Pfizer vaccine effectiveness against Delta infection is decreasing to ~40% after 4 months..

Booster for Delta will be strongly suggested in several months.

Tens and tens of millions of people in the US have had the Pfizer vaccine for well over 4 months and there is zero evidence for a drop to 40%. It's the opposite, in fact.

Do Americans have magic powers?

 

[Milhouse40]

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Wicker’s fully vaxed. He should be fine.

 

[waffledave]

They are talking boosters in the US now because they've realized they are never going to get a significant chunk of the population vaccinated. It's just never going to happen, and it was it predictable. I even said it a while back when people were complaining about the rollout in Canada because the US was vaccinating 1m+ per day.

There will always be a sizeable chunk of unvaccinated in the US, and so COVID is always going to be present in all areas of society. Even if you're vaccinated, the more you are exposed in an area that the virus is in heavy circulation, the higher the chance of a breakthrough infection.

Vaccines are not sunscreen. They don't block the virus like magic. They teach your immune system to fight it off, so that if you are exposed, your body already knows how to fight the virus before it can take hold. But that doesn't mean you're immune, you can still get infected if for whatever reason your immune system isn't able to stop the virus from taking hold. You'll probably have a more mild infection, and be infected for a shorter period, since your immune system already knows what to do. But you might still get sick. And the risk of this happening goes up the more you're around infected people.

So, they're proposing boosters because that's going to protect those who are willing to get vaccinated, and they're basically giving up on the unvaccinated. Let them live with their decisions.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So Pfizer vaccine effectiveness against Delta infection is decreasing to ~40% after 4 months..

Booster for Delta will be strongly suggested in several months.

If this were true then we’d see the vaccinated catching the virus in much higher numbers. That’s not the case.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

If this were true then we’d see the vaccinated catching the virus in much higher numbers. That’s not the case.

Yes, I also question this. Real life data does not back this and I actually found a study which said the complete opposite: that the mRNA vaccine are providing more than anticipated long term immunity response.

 

[danyhabsfan]

Moderna seems to be better than Pfizer from what I read about antibodies level.

Johnson and johnson seems to be all right for Delta too

 

[WinterLion]

Question: Is it possible and/or likely that a booster will be tweaked to be more effective against Delta or is that not possible?

 

[Treb]

Question: Is it possible and/or likely that a booster will be tweaked to be more effective against Delta or is that not possible?

Very easy to do for mRNA vaccines and they are testing it.

They had started some work with Beta previously as well, but I assume that one will never be available.

 

[OnTheRun]

Everything is under control... It's not like there was 3 previous waves that could have been used to learn a few useful lessons along the way... Oh wait, there was.

As its stand, Canada and Germany truly became the golden standard on how to handle this covid thing in the Western world. And it's nothing to brag about, because it truly feel like we just won a softball game against a team of blind 12 years old.

 

[Milhouse40]

Question: Is it possible and/or likely that a booster will be tweaked to be more effective against Delta or is that not possible?

They might be aiming a little bit higher than that.