Value of: Claude Giroux

[Habs Halifax]

Well said. The two teams don't match up well considering what they want/need.

Just like other GM's are making the phone call to Bergevin about acquiring Galchenyuk (at a low price), the same is likely to happen with Giroux. What do you think the Flyers needs are? And do you think any team matches up well? Look at Duchene. Sakic has been trying to address his team needs but he's not traded yet. It's very hard to make trades where both teams are happy. With Giroux on his massive contract, the Flyers better hope he don't turn into a Gomez . Personally, I don't think he does but if he declines any further from where he is today, this story is going to pick up steam!

 

[ponder719]

1. Open your eyes. Do you see other fans offering multiple trades to acquire Giroux? There is obvious decline and he has a massive contract. How about you go talk to other fans (not Habs fans) and see how far you get with Giroux's true value today.

2. Who are the Habs fans bashing? You are completely starting something that has no evidence. Good job! Saying Giroux has declined to a 60 pts (+/-) player is not bashing him. In today's NHL that is still a very good player. It's the combo of decline and contract is what is concerning and affects his value. Once again... OPEN YOUR EYES

Our eyes are wide open, and what we're seeing is a segment of a particular fanbase that can't seem to take a hint. We don't consider Giroux a declining asset, and won't respond well to a lowball offer for him. The normal response, after a couple people say this, would be to go "OK, I suppose we have a difference of opinion," and then to move on. The less normal response would be to spend nine pages trying to get Flyers fans to suddenly crack and say "you know what, we WILL start treating Giroux like he's worth less than we actually think he is. This argument didn't convince us for the first eight pages, but by gum, this ninth page of repetition is the charm!"

Let it go. We don't want to move G. If we were to move him, it would be at our price. We're under no obligation to reduce the price because you, or anyone else, doesn't like the valuation we placed on him. Too many people on this board seem to think that the value of a given asset is the value placed on said asset by the person who wants to acquire it. That's bullcrap. The value of an asset is what the holder of the asset thinks it is; otherwise, the asset doesn't move.

------------

OK, now that I have that out of my system:

The Flyers' best plan with Giroux is to keep him as the 1C while Patrick develops for a couple years. As that happens, Patrick can move up to the first line, and G can move gracefully down to 2C. As G declines further, which is bound to happen, he can move down to 3C, behind Couts, or possibly to a wing position. Now, it's certainly possible he falls off a cliff, though we don't expect it, but if he does, we'll probably just have to deal with it. Hexy's never been one for attaching assets to move a bad deal, though he might take back a worse asset if that makes the value proposition better. See: Lehtera, Jori.

Worst case scenario, if G truly is declining too rapidly to salvage, we may see him traded for some shorter bad contracts, in a repeat of the Hartnell/Umberger deal. It won't happen for another couple years, though, IMO. It might be the kind of situation where we take on the husk of Dustin Brown in the last year of his deal or something like that, where the other team gets the better player and we get cap relief faster.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Our eyes are wide open, and what we're seeing is a segment of a particular fanbase that can't seem to take a hint. We don't consider Giroux a declining asset, and won't respond well to a lowball offer for him. The normal response, after a couple people say this, would be to go "OK, I suppose we have a difference of opinion," and then to move on. The less normal response would be to spend nine pages trying to get Flyers fans to suddenly crack and say "you know what, we WILL start treating Giroux like he's worth less than we actually think he is. This argument didn't convince us for the first eight pages, but by gum, this ninth page of repetition is the charm!"

Let it go. We don't want to move G. If we were to move him, it would be at our price. We're under no obligation to reduce the price because you, or anyone else, doesn't like the valuation we placed on him. Too many people on this board seem to think that the value of a given asset is the value placed on said asset by the person who wants to acquire it. That's bullcrap. The value of an asset is what the holder of the asset thinks it is; otherwise, the asset doesn't move.

Love being told to open my eyes to a copy-pasted statistical snapshot of a player I have watched at least 60 times per year for the last 8 years.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Our eyes are wide open, and what we're seeing is a segment of a particular fanbase that can't seem to take a hint. We don't consider Giroux a declining asset, and won't respond well to a lowball offer for him. The normal response, after a couple people say this, would be to go "OK, I suppose we have a difference of opinion," and then to move on. The less normal response would be to spend nine pages trying to get Flyers fans to suddenly crack and say "you know what, we WILL start treating Giroux like he's worth less than we actually think he is. This argument didn't convince us for the first eight pages, but by gum, this ninth page of repetition is the charm!"

Let it go. We don't want to move G. If we were to move him, it would be at our price. We're under no obligation to reduce the price because you, or anyone else, doesn't like the valuation we placed on him. Too many people on this board seem to think that the value of a given asset is the value placed on said asset by the person who wants to acquire it. That's bullcrap. The value of an asset is what the holder of the asset thinks it is; otherwise, the asset doesn't move.

You think Patch, + for Giroux ($1.5M - $2M retained) is a low ball offer? You can say that your interested in other parts to address your team needs but this is not a low ball offer. That's bullcrap

 

[InTkachukWeTrust]

What does Philly need

 

[1865]

Giroux's PPG since his best season (age 24). Open your eyes. Giroux is in decline. Saying he is more likely a fringe 60 points player (+/-) is a reality at this stage. You may be right and he bounces back with a 70 pts season but the trend here shows he is in decline over the last 3 seasons. Add that his cap hit is $8.275M and there is concern. This does affect his value.

2011-2012 (Age 23/24): 1.19 PPG
2012-2013 (Age 24/25): 1.00 PPG
2013-2014 (Age 25/26): 1.05 PPG
2014-2015 (Age 26/27): 0.90 PPG
2015-2016 (Age 27/28): 0.86 PPG
2016-2017 (Age 28/29): 0.71 PPG

No question, but most people decline from 1.19ppg. Only a select few keep it at that state. Last years can be slightly discounted due to injury and the other four seasons are seeing him bounce around his normal total which is between 1.05ppg and 0.86ppg.

Next year is a big year for him for sure though. He doesn't have the injury excuse this time and if the decline continues it's going to be undeniable.

 

[Habs Halifax]

What does Philly need

They won't say. They are too focused on defending Giroux's decline in stats.

 

[Sweetpotato]

Giroux + Simmonds to EDM
for
Draisaitl + Pouliot

Draisaitl-Patrick-Couturier down the middle for PHI
McDavid-Giroux -RNH down the middle for EDM

Thats so bad you should feel ashamed. A younger bigger better center to dump 4 mill.......no


Minny, MTL, CLB, Carolina. Lots of teams need a center like Claude and he'll bounce back.

 

[Starat327]

You think Patch, + for Giroux ($1.5M - $2M retained) is a low ball offer? You can say that your interested in other parts to address your team needs but this is not a low ball offer. That's bullcrap

The offer has value in a vacuum. But If Philadelphia trades Giroux, its because they are going rebuild, so a similar aged LW with 2 years left on his contract has little value at that point.

Seriously, why is this so hard to understand?

 

[Starat327]

They won't say. They are too focused on defending Giroux's decline in stats.

If you actually read the replies, instead of just blindly posting replies about Giroux's decline in production - which we've all acknowledgerd by the way, theres no need to constantly repeat it - we've spelled out what our needs are, in a Giroux trade.

A Top 6 C with upside to replace Giroux's minutes, because we arent willing to throw Patrick to the wolves. The quality of that C, and age/contract would dertermine who adds. But that's it. If you don't think hes worth that, thats fine. But that is what the flyers NEED, and have no desire, or inclination, to sell him for anything else. Continue to post how you'd send Pacioretty out for him, and you'll be met with the same response. Our needs don't change - your offer has to. Full stop.

 

[ponder719]

They won't say. They are too focused on defending Giroux's decline in stats.

We have said, repeatedly, what we need: patience. A little patience, and we'll see if Giroux's "decline" is real, or if it's a combination of injuries and team structural deficiencies.

Anyway, we've also told you repeatedly that we don't need help on the wings. We don't need NHL-ready defensemen. We have a deep goalie pipeline, and need a year or two for them to be fully ready. We just drafted a prospective #1C for down the road. What we need is a #1C now... only we don't. We have one, and his name is Giroux.

We don't actually need anything in return for Giroux, because the thing we'd need in return is Giroux. That makes constructing a trade for him remarkably difficult, and sitting pat very easy.

 

[phlocky]

So....what are the excuses for the other 3 seasons? I like Giroux, but his stats have been steadily dropping for 4 straight years. It isn't an anomaly any longer.

Acting like the guy is still a PPG player and expecting a hefty return (especially with that massive cap hit) is wishful thinking at this point.

Last year he was recovering from the surgery. The year before he PLAYED through it. The year before that he played through a wrist injury that needed off season surgery.

He hasn't been healthy the last 3 seasons (and yes, every player gets banged up some every season) but he's been seriously hampered by them the last 3 years. From the reports I've seen he is supposedly coming to camp fully healed for the first time in 4 seasons

 

[Habs Halifax]

No question, but most people decline from 1.19ppg. Only a select few keep it at that state. Last years can be slightly discounted due to injury and the other four seasons are seeing him bounce around his normal total which is between 1.05ppg and 0.86ppg.

Next year is a big year for him for sure though. He doesn't have the injury excuse this time and if the decline continues it's going to be undeniable.

Thanks for the fair assessment. I still think Giroux is at least a solid 60 pts center (possibly more under the right circumstances). I have him around this number for the rest of his current contract (age 29-35). This is not a knock on Giroux. It's just reality of how players decline in their early 30's. There are exceptions though and your 100% right... Giroux's next year is a big rebound year for him.

With Couturier, Filppula, and now Patrick, there is depth at center behind Giroux. You also have Konecny, Lehtera, Rubtsov, Laberge. There will be teams knocking on the door for Giroux.

 

[InTkachukWeTrust]

Kyle Turris/ Derrick Brassard + picks for Giroux

 

[Starat327]

Thanks for the fair assessment. I still think Giroux is at least a solid 60 pts center (possibly more under the right circumstances). I have him around this number for the rest of his current contract (age 29-35). This is not a knock on Giroux. It's just reality of how players decline in their early 30's. There are exceptions though and your 100% right... Giroux's next year is a big rebound year for him.

With Couturier, Filppula, and now Patrick, there is depth at center behind Giroux. You also have Konecny, Lehtera, Rubtsov, Laberge. There will be teams knocking on the door for Giroux.

Which means we don't have to sell for the first offer that comes along. We can sift trough them and determine which fits out needs best.

Glad you put that out there.

Edit: But we still dont have center depth, as Flip is gone this year, likely at the TDL. Giroux is a need until we get a top 6C to replace him. I feel like a broken record at this point.

 

[Habs Halifax]

If you actually read the replies, instead of just blindly posting replies about Giroux's decline in production - which we've all acknowledgerd by the way, theres no need to constantly repeat it - we've spelled out what our needs are, in a Giroux trade.

A Top 6 C with upside to replace Giroux's minutes, because we arent willing to throw Patrick to the wolves. The quality of that C, and age/contract would dertermine who adds. But that's it. If you don't think hes worth that, thats fine. But that is what the flyers NEED, and have no desire, or inclination, to sell him for anything else. Continue to post how you'd send Pacioretty out for him, and you'll be met with the same response. Our needs don't change - your offer has to. Full stop.

Couturier & Filppula. There is your top 2 centers. Patrick replaces Filppula. I think this is the plan isn't it?

 

[duffy9748]

Just like other GM's are making the phone call to Bergevin about acquiring Galchenyuk (at a low price), the same is likely to happen with Giroux. What do you think the Flyers needs are? And do you think any team matches up well? Look at Duchene. Sakic has been trying to address his team needs but he's not traded yet. It's very hard to make trades where both teams are happy. With Giroux on his massive contract, the Flyers better hope he don't turn into a Gomez . Personally, I don't think he does but if he declines any further from where he is today, this story is going to pick up steam!

I don't see the similarities between Giroux and Galchenyuk. Montreal has been desperate for a top 6 center for several years and they had 2 different coaches who refused to play him in that role. The Canadiens are responsible for diminishing Galchenyuk's perceived value. It's also been known throughout the league that Galchenyuk has been available.

Comparing it to the Duchene situation is also irrelevant. The Flyers and Avalanche are at totally different stages. Has there been any indication that Hextall wants to move Giroux? Any indication that Giroux is unhappy in Philadelphia?

I don't believe any team would trade what it would take for Hextall to move Giroux. The Flyers don't have any holes in their farm system. Since the 2013 draft, the Flyers have made an effort to rebuild their organization from within and they've done a tremendous job. They are 3-4 players deep at every position and you can check off every box that's needed for a team to win.

I am well aware that a team won't trade a young, cost controlled center with #1 potential for Giroux, but what is the incentive for the Flyers to accept less? You're painting a picture in which the Flyers are trying to move Giroux, they aren't.

 

[phlocky]

What does Philly need

To keep G, plain and simple

 

[Starat327]

Couturier & Filppula. There is your top 2 centers. Patrick replaces Filppula. I think this is the plan isn't it?

No. Giroux will be on the first line. Patrick likely on the 2nd or 3rd, with Couturier on the other - our middle 6 lines have been fluid in the past - with possibly laughton getting 4c.

Flip is largely expected to go to LW, probably with patrick.

Couturier is a middle 6, Flip is middle 6. Patrick will likely start as a middle 6. Therefore, keeping our only proven 1C is paramount to making sure that no one is in a position where they are in over their heads.

 

[whitstifier]

They won't say. They are too focused on defending Giroux's decline in stats.

Posted earlier that Galchenyuk + Danault + 2018 1st could get the ball rolling. Not an ideal offer because no player with 1C potential would be coming back. There'd have to be another + as other teams would probably make stronger offers.

Here's an exercise, consider what Stepan was worth in a trade. Worse player than Giroux in most facets of his game, and low-end 1C. Add significant pieces to that trade to acquire Giroux

 

[phlocky]

They won't say. They are too focused on defending Giroux's decline in stats.

Actually, others have said it a number of times in this thread. The only trade that would make sense for us would be to get a young, top 6 center (think one of the two Sam's), a first and a good prospect. G isn't returning that at this point so the best think for us is to just keep him

 

[phlocky]

Kyle Turris/ Derrick Brassard + picks for Giroux

If the Sens can handle his salary, upgrading from Turris to G would probably be a good move for them. However, I think that they would much rather ADD G to Turris and their center depth rather than just get a slight upgrade and then, they may not have the assets to make the Flyers happy

 

[Juicy Pop]

They won't say. They are too focused on defending Giroux's decline in stats.

PHI wants to keep Giroux and MTL wants a 1C. It's in your hands to make an offer if you think that you want Giroux because there is nothing that we desperately need that we don't already have cooking with prospects.

 

[ponder719]

There'd have to be another + as other teams would probably make stronger offers.

In fact, I think we've just seen one, since a Sens fan popped in with Turris+picks. Turris is a low-end 1C (or at least lower-end than a healthy Giroux), so we'd be looking at a slight step backwards, but a player who fits our timeline well, and doesn't blast a gigantic gaping hole in our roster. While the correct plan is still "hold on to Giroux and let this play itself out," Turris is probably the most reasonable backup plan someone's going to come with. I did like G & Simmonds for Drai & Pouliot, which also likely leads where we want to go, but giving up Simmonds and Giroux at the same time kind of stings.

Combining offers from a couple threads, IF we were to go full-on rebuild, G for Turris and picks and Simmonds for Puljujarvi (which a lot of Edmonton fans liked in another thread) could be a really effective way to realign our core.

Again, though, this is more of a backup plan than the real one, which is just to sit tight.

 

[MSSLYNX]

They won't say. They are too focused on defending Giroux's decline in stats.

its been 9 pages now. Maybe you are not listening. And thats for today's thread cause they will ask for Giroux again tomorrow. Like you did yesterday and the day before too.

You have been told over and over Giroux is not available.