Player Discussion: Centre depth not pulling their weight?

[VictoriaJetsFan]

Little is on pace for 30 points, no matter how you look at it, that's not good enough on a Stanley Cup champion. He is a third centre, albeit a very good one.

I don't see Little reclaiming offence that really has not appeared for about 100 games now. He has 48 points in his last 96 games. He did not produce much offence in the playoffs either.

This isn't a hate on Little, I really do like him, but Chevy needs to be realistic. If we want to win this year, Little as the second line centre isn't going to cut it.

 

[jetsforever]

What is this "centre depth" you speak of?

 

[WpgSteve]

Yeah don't we need a dman coming back in any Trouba deal?

We're not getting back anyone near Trouba's level in a one for one trade given his contract situation.

We need to re sign Trouba. If we can't, we probably need to trade Elhers or Connor (if not Laine) to get a comparable replacement. Either that or hope and pray that whatever bandaid solution we choose pulls off a miracle in the playoffs.

Everyone on here that talks like we can lose a Trouba without major consequences is out of their mind or in serious denial about the situation in my opinion.

 

[jepjepjoo]

We're not getting back anyone near Trouba's level in a one for one trade given his contract situation.

We need to re sign Trouba. If we can't, we probably need to trade Elhers or Connor (if not Laine) to get a comparable replacement. Either that or hope and pray that whatever bandaid solution we choose pulls off a miracle in the playoffs.

Everyone on here that talks like we can lose a Trouba without major consequences is out of their mind or in serious denial about the situation in my opinion.

Let's say Trouba plays for the Oilers and is signed long term... Would you trade Laine to get him?

 

[Halberdier]

As noted above, the Jets are the victim of some bad luck in shooting...

On-ice shooting % (2017/18):

Scheifele 7.44 (8.74)
Little 4.76 (6.95)
Lowry 4.94 (7.42)
Roslovic 5.88 (9.63)

To give even more perspective:

Laine 0.00 (14.47) SH%

In terms of iCF/60, things have not really changed significantly:

Laine 15.68 (16.9) iCF/60

Bad luck is one thing and definitely a factor to consider, but also the structure and roles have been pretty bad. Everyone suffers from that, including our centers.

 

[JetsFan815]

Little is on pace for 30 points, no matter how you look at it, that's not good enough on a Stanley Cup champion. He is a third centre, albeit a very good one.

I don't see Little reclaiming offence that really has not appeared for about 100 games now. He has 48 points in his last 96 games. He did not produce much offence in the playoffs either.

This isn't a hate on Little, I really do like him, but Chevy needs to be realistic. If we want to win this year, Little as the second line centre isn't going to cut it.

Points aside, Little has been great... it's early but all his individual stats (rates of iCF, iSF, iScoringChances, iHDCF) have rebounded to his career average after a concerning dip last season and in the first few games this season. If he can keep this up, he'll be worth that contract and the points will surely come. In addition to stats, he also looks great to my eye-test.

 

[almostawake]

Enh, this team simply isn't very good at ES right now. Is Little a cause of that, or merely a symptom? IMO he is probably just a symptom at the moment. Because when the first line isn't doing much, how is it reasonable to expect more of the second.

The way I see it, the position that an upgrade would improve this team the most is LD. No more than one of Chiarot, Kulikov and Morrow should be in the lineup on any given night. They are just plain bad at recovering the puck and getting it out of the defensive zone with possession. It is easy to point at production, but the reality is we have a number of forwards, especially wingers, that are not good at defensive zone play. This means that if an opportunity to recover and breakout is missed, the Jets are stuck in their end too long.

We're not going to move the worst offending wingers, so the only real option is to do something about the defensemen. And frankly, it would be a lot easier to find an upgrade on Kulikov, Chiarot or Morrow, than to get a 2C.

Also, trading Trouba and not getting, at least, a quality top 4 defenceman back would be disastrous. This lineup is borderline with two of Chiarot, Kulikov and Morrow in the lineup. Putting all 3 in would be a mess. Even more so when you consider that your bottom pairing would be Kulikov and Morrow, which means that the top two pairings (Morrissey and Myers, Chiarot and Byfuglien) would have to cover around 50 minutes a night.

 

[Halberdier]

Points aside, Little has been great... it's early but all his individual stats (rates of iCF, iSF, iScoringChances, iHDCF) have rebounded to his career average after a concerning dip last season and in the first few games this season. If he can keep this up, he'll be worth that contract and the points will surely come. In addition to stats, he also looks great to my eye-test.

Points, goals for and goals against aside. Or in other words: results aside, Little has been good and better than expected.

Some of it can be addressed by bad luck, but let's see what happens when sample size gets bigger.

Corsi, xGoals etc. are not telling nearly all of the truth. They hold value, but if they contradict completely with real results even after large sample size (eg. half a season or more), it's not luck but something other.

 

[grieves]

We're not getting back anyone near Trouba's level in a one for one trade given his contract situation.

We need to re sign Trouba. If we can't, we probably need to trade Elhers or Connor (if not Laine) to get a comparable replacement. Either that or hope and pray that whatever bandaid solution we choose pulls off a miracle in the playoffs.

Everyone on here that talks like we can lose a Trouba without major consequences is out of their mind or in serious denial about the situation in my opinion.

If we decide to go this route and sacrifice winger depth, I think (although it pains me to say this because he is so good) it has to be Connor. Ehlers provides the team with zone-entries and draws penalties like no other. And I like how our PP is going to look like, especially after we start double shifting Laine. Just really good synergy having both Ehlers and Laine on the team.

Trading Laine would not be smart at this point. Although Connor is only 21yo too so I'm not sure that makes any more sense either. Not that I know much about trading anyway.

I would be just brutal and trade Wheeler (partly because I have no emotional ties to him from before, but partly because I think him having career years at this point would have brought excellent value). But this is not going to happen, I know, so no need to kill me for this opinion .

Such a shame we didn't get more for Armia, but it is what it is.

But maybe our problems will be resolved with the Little-Wheeler combo. It would be interesting to see what it looks like because "new" fans like me have never seen it. Wheeler could use the defensive boost and Little could use the offensive boost so it could work really well.

 

[mazmin]

Little is playing okay, just not scoring much yet. BUT, I still think the Jets could make a move again closer to the deadline. TSN (I think) recently aired some speculation that Hayes from New York could be had. I'm not sure if he's the right fit but who else would be available?

 

[Howard Chuck]

I think its the opposite ... I don't think they are playing with urgency ... they know its a long season.
I believe after Christmas break they will start firing on all cylinders ... I just hope they don't have to leap frog too many teams.

I have nothing to back it up, but I agree. They look like they are sometimes coasting and buying into the hype that they are great and don't have to work as hard anymore. I don't see the urgency that we saw last year.

Our schedule has been against poorer teams lately and we haven't won any of those games easily, and lost a few of them. I don't know what's going to happen when we're in a stretch of games against good teams.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Little could be great if given Wheeler. Schief does not need Wheeler. Disagree on your assessment of Rosie.

What? You think Rosie has proven himself to be ready to play C in the NHL?

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Little has played well this year, but it’s just not reflecting on the scoreboard yet. Not at all worried about him.

Agree about Roslovic, sure he has very little ice time but there’s nothing to suggest he has a future at C. I can’t even remember a single play he’s done this year.

Not sure about Rosie. I think he showed last year that he is NHL ready at RW. This year, not ready at C. Maybe they should send him to the Moose to play C. Maybe they should just play him at RW while he continues to adjust to the pace in the NHL and try him at C again later.

If he is not going to make it at C then we need to get a prospect who will. Little is not done yet but he will be in the not too distant future.

 

[Adam da bomb]

What? You think Rosie has proven himself to be ready to play C in the NHL?

Love the what at the beginning of the comment as if my stating something outside of popular opinion personally offend you. I'm sorry that we can't have conflicting opinions here.
They should switch Rosie with Tanev run Laine Lowry Rosie.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Love the what at the beginning of the comment as if my stating something outside of popular opinion personally offend you. I'm sorry that we can't have conflicting opinions here.
They should switch Rosie with Tanev run Laine Lowry Rosie.

The "What?" indicates I don't understand your comment. It isn't obvious how it connects with what you quoted. You said you disagree with my assessment of Rosie. I didn't give an assessment of Rosie. I stated a conclusion. So I questioned if you are disagreeing with that conclusion. Or are you questioning my suggestion that he might never make it at C? If the former, why are you now suggesting he play RW? If the latter, how can you disagree that a thing is possible when that possibility has not been eliminated? That possibility exists until he actually has made it at C, which he clearly has not yet.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Little is on pace for 30 points, no matter how you look at it, that's not good enough on a Stanley Cup champion. He is a third centre, albeit a very good one.

I don't see Little reclaiming offence that really has not appeared for about 100 games now. He has 48 points in his last 96 games. He did not produce much offence in the playoffs either.

This isn't a hate on Little, I really do like him, but Chevy needs to be realistic. If we want to win this year, Little as the second line centre isn't going to cut it.

If it isn't a hate on Little why does it look so much like one? Last year was an off year for Little. No one denies that. The question was always would last year be an indicator of the future or would he rebound? You are ignoring the fact that he has rebounded. True, the points aren't there so far this year, but the play clearly is. Both by the eye test and by the underlying statistics. He is suffering from a very low s% and also poor s% from his linemates. Those are just variance. The points will come as long as the play is there.

 

[Hobble]

Stick Wheeler with Little and Connor, give Ehlers and Laine to Scheifele.

Little could need Wheeler (they have produced together before, don't think Ladd was the main line driver), and both Ehlers and Laine could benefit from Scheifele, but Wheeler and Scheifele don't need each other.

The fact they are so rarely broken up leads me to think that they have specifically requested being paired.

Defense be damned for now, we need our offense to start clicking at 5on5.

 

[Tommigun]

If it isn't a hate on Little why does it look so much like one? Last year was an off year for Little. No one denies that. The question was always would last year be an indicator of the future or would he rebound? You are ignoring the fact that he has rebounded. True, the points aren't there so far this year, but the play clearly is. Both by the eye test and by the underlying statistics. He is suffering from a very low s% and also poor s% from his linemates. Those are just variance. The points will come as long as the play is there.

Yeah, Little hasn’t been any less effective on 5-vs-5 than anyone else on this team, he’s just not on PP1 to rack up points.

 

[Trinity]

If he keeps playing like he has been, the puck will start going in and that number will change. Small sample.

I'd agree that he has looked more impactful this season.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'd agree that he has looked more impactful this season.

He has looked just like his old self, borderline 1C, much less 2C.

I liked the look of the latest line combinations. I'd like to see them left alone for a while now. I think the goals will start coming.

 

[Trinity]

Little is on pace for 30 points, no matter how you look at it, that's not good enough on a Stanley Cup champion. He is a third centre, albeit a very good one.

I don't see Little reclaiming offence that really has not appeared for about 100 games now. He has 48 points in his last 96 games. He did not produce much offence in the playoffs either.

This isn't a hate on Little, I really do like him, but Chevy needs to be realistic. If we want to win this year, Little as the second line centre isn't going to cut it.

I think we can win in the regular season with Little as 2C, but we won't go very far in the playoffs without an upgrade at 2C.

 

[Trinity]

He has looked just like his old self, borderline 1C, much less 2C.

I liked the look of the latest line combinations. I'd like to see them left alone for a while now. I think the goals will start coming.

Now you're just going to far. I'd call Little a borderline 2C and that's being generous.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Now you're just going to far. I'd call Little a borderline 2C and that's being generous.

He used to be our 1C. His underlying stats always supported him as a 1C, even if his scoring was borderline for that position. He was frequently mentioned as our MVP and as one of the most underrated players in the league.

I'm not suggesting that he is a 1C now. I'm saying he looks like his old self, which was a borderline 1C, at least. If he keeps playing like he has so far this year, then he is a 2C and not a borderline one at all. That is if he maintains that. If he slips back to last year's level of play, then I would agree that he is a borderline 2C or maybe a 3C. But given his history and his recent performance, why would anyone assume that last year was anything other than an off-season? Something that all players have occasionally.

 

[Bob E]

Scheifele is a legit #1 C.

Little is a very good#3 C, but does not score enough to be a #2 C on a true Stanley Cup contender, imo.

Lowry is a solid #3 C as well, imo.

Copp or Roslovic are usually given less than 7 or 8 mins of ice as a #4 C. I would like to see our #4 C get over 10 mins of ice.

So to me, we have 1-#1C, 2-#3C, and that’s it.

Last year’s playoffs, imo, we had 1-#1C, 1-#2C, 2-#3C. That was great depth and a luxury few teams can duplicate. That depth gave us 4 very solid lines. Ran into a hot goalie with a young, inexperienced group. Good experience for them, but our C depth is considerably weaker, imo.

 

[ello]

If it isn't a hate on Little why does it look so much like one? Last year was an off year for Little. No one denies that. The question was always would last year be an indicator of the future or would he rebound? You are ignoring the fact that he has rebounded. True, the points aren't there so far this year, but the play clearly is. Both by the eye test and by the underlying statistics. He is suffering from a very low s% and also poor s% from his linemates. Those are just variance. The points will come as long as the play is there.

I don't know much about "fancy stats", but could the fact that he's getting more o-zone starts and fewer d-zone starts than ever before contribute to this "jump" in shot shares? Up 7% from last season in o-zone starts and down 7% in d-zone starts. Unless im misreading the hockeyreference.com stats...